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The Fall of Babbylon

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Messenger1, Jan 17, 2003.

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  1. Messenger1

    Messenger1 New Member

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    Great point! This city babylon has Jerusalem written all over it. And have you compared the writings against Jerusalem in 2nd Chronicles?

    2Ch 21:11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah, and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
    12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
    13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
    14 Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:

    Yes, Jerusalem has Babylon written all over it when we compare scripture with scripture thus getting our interpretations from God's Word.
     
  2. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
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    If babylon IS Jerusalem, then how are we to understand the desrciption of her in Revelation;

    The merchants of the earth are <<waxed rich>> through the abundance of her delicacies.
    The merchants of these things--- (gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linen, purple, silk, scarlet, thyine wood, ivory, brass, iron, marble, cinnamon, odours, ointments, frankincese, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, beasts, sheep, horses, chariots, slaves and the souls of men)--- were made RICH by her.
    And harpers, musicians, pipers, trumpeters, no more shall be heard in thee.
    And craftsman, shall be found no more in thee.
    For thy merchants were the great men of the earth.
    For by thy SORCERIES were all nations decieved.

    Jerusalem is an ancient, poor city that is full of violence and murder.
    It does not contain the things that I have posted above, which John has written to describe her.

    She is the MOTHER of harlots and abominations of the earth.
    She is BECOME the habitation of devils and every foul bird and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    And she sits upon the beast which was full of names of BLASPHEMY, having seven heads and ten horns.
    These seven heads are described as mountains/ kingdoms and the ten horns as leaders/kings.

    It would be safe to say that there are (at least) seven countries in the middle east that are filled of blasphemy against our God, Father almighty. They worship other Gods/ muhammed and the religion of Islam. And even part of Israel is divided, with a small part of it left to christianity.

    And notice that Babylon SITS upon the beast; so it shows a cooperation between the two, because the beast is carrying her>>(this wealthy city).

    But then PART of the beast (the ten horns) HATES the great city and turns on her, and destroys her with fire.
    And her kingdom is given over to the beast.

    And the city that is destroyed reigns over the kings of the earth.

    I still believe that a nation of material wealth plays a large part of this prophecy; (the harlot) and this wealthy nation or (city) changes, because 18:2 says Babylon IS BECOME a habitation of devils, whereas before it was not.

    And the 'beast" who carries her, will need to be identified, so we can understand who 'she' is.

    But, Revelation takes time, and patience.
    And I realize that all of prophecy has not been fufilled, so it is unprofitable to try and 'guess'.
    But it doesn't hurt to keep our eyes open either. :)

    Wildfire
     
  3. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Generally Medicated

    +56
    Christian
    Revelation 17

    3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH&nbsp;




    That scripture is often used to prove that it is the catholic church , but look at this :





    Ezekiel 16: 10. “I clothed you in embroidered cloth and gave you sandals of badger skin; I clothed you with FINE LINEN and covered you with SILK. 11“I adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your wrists, and a chain on your neck. 12“And I put a JEWEL in your nose, earrings in your ears, and a beautiful CROWN on your head. 13“Thus you were adorned with GOLD and SILVER, and your clothing was of FINE LINEN, SILK, and embroidered cloth. You ate pastry of fine flour, honey, and oil. You were exceedingly beautiful, and succeeded to royalty. 14 “Your FAME went out among the NATIONS because of your beauty, for it was perfect through My splendor which I HAD BESTOWED ON YOU,” SAYS THE LORD GOD.
    15 “But you trusted in your own beauty, played the HARLOT because of your fame, and poured out your HARLOTRY on EVERYONE passing by who would have it

    &nbsp;

    &nbsp;

    And This&nbsp; :

    &nbsp;

    &nbsp;

    &nbsp;

    O desolate one [Jerusalem], what will you do? Although you dress in scarlet, Although you decorate [yourself with] ornaments of gold, Although you enlarge your eyes with paint, In vain you make yourself beautiful
     
  4. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    brain damage, wow I had never before noticed that; I will read that chapter...so (without sounding confusing) if Jerusalem is the true babylon, and is destroyed in Rev 18; then why does God say, in Ez. 9:4 to the angels, go through Jerusalem and set a mark upon the foreheads of those who sigh and cry for all the abominations that are done in the midst thereof?--when it is in Gods heart to destroy it?

    And then in Rev.18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets, for God hath avenged you on her.

    But also in Zech 12 God says that He will make Jerusalem a trembling cup to all those around her, and a burdensome stone, and will seek to DESTROY those nations that come against her.

    Does this mean he is punishing both (her) and those who are against her? Yet, having mercy on those who weep for the true Jerusalem, that has turned from God?

    Trying to grasp this. thanks.
     
  5. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    An afterthought...if Jerusalem is the harlot and the beast is the one who is carrying her, then wouldn't the beast be the USA, since we have always been the one to protect her from those surrounding countries.....
     
  6. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Babylon and where the witnesses will be (obviously Jerasulem - or nearby, somewhere in Israel) isn't necessarily the same city referred to as sodom and egypt.&nbsp; Read Daniel and Revelation for the actual descriptions of Babylon and how Babylon was and compare it to modern nations and see what you get...

    Babylon is described as a great city that ALL the earth trades with, not just the middle east or not just a few other cities but the entire earth trades with this great city.&nbsp; Also, the Babylon of Daniel's time was a mix of religions, every kind of god and religious belief you could imagine was allowed in the city/nation and then King Nebuchadnezzar enforced worshipping of his own image throughout the city/nation but did not disallow worshipping of gods and idols.&nbsp; There was a tolerance of all religions in Babylon as long as you knelt before&nbsp;the King and his image (kind of like Sadaam of today and Hitler of the past).&nbsp; Now what country out of all countries are all religions allowed and not condemned or have&nbsp;little to no influence by the government?&nbsp; Hmmm...

    &nbsp;

    (Revelation 18:1) And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

    (Revelation 18:2) And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    (Revelation 18:3) For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    [Does 18:3&nbsp;remind you of any particular nation or city?]

    (Revelation 18:4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    [Note:&nbsp; This has not happened yet, but obviously it will.&nbsp; If any of you can name a time that God has called His people out of a nation/city before he punished it please let me know.]

    &nbsp;

    (Revelation 18:5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

    (Revelation 18:6) Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    (Revelation 18:7) How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

    [How many men does the U.S. lose in battle today?&nbsp; Can you imagine how few we may lose in the near future as our technologies increase?&nbsp; Soon we may be fighting wars from remote control as our technology increases;&nbsp; We already have remote&nbsp;land rovers and planes that we use for recon missions.]

    (Revelation 18:8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her.

    (Revelation 18:9) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

    [There are two logical ways that this could happen in an hour...&nbsp; a meteor or several nuclear missles]

    (Revelation 18:10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

    (Revelation 18:11) And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

    [So many nations trade with the U.S. if this nation was wiped out, every other nation would suffer economically for we are the largest purchasing nation on the planet]

    (Revelation 18:12) The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

    (Revelation 18:13) And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

    (Revelation 18:14) And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

    (Revelation 18:15) The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

    (Revelation 18:16) And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

    (Revelation 18:17) For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

    (Revelation 18:18) And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city!

    [There is no nation like the U.S. on the planet and every country has family or peoples from their own country living here]

    (Revelation 18:19) And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

    (Revelation 18:20) Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

    [Here's the tough one if you want to fit the U.S. into being modern Babylon unless we do not know of the suffering of possible modern day prophets or even if apostles exist today or maybe will exist again in the times near this occurance.]

    (Revelation 18:21) And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    (Revelation 18:22) And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft [he be], shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

    (Revelation 18:23) And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

    (Revelation 18:24) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

    [18:24 brings you back to Jerasulem or Rome.&nbsp; I could possibly write it off as abortions killing possible future saints and prophets before they even have a chance at life, but it says ALL that were slain upon the earth.&nbsp; ALL?&nbsp; Wow, now this is grander than Rome, Jerusalem or the U.S.&nbsp; So this must be speaking of something larger than we can see.&nbsp; What city/nation/organization could possibly fit 18:24?&nbsp; This one stumps me from every perspective.]

    (Revelation 19:1) And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

    (Revelation 19:2) For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.


    (Revelation 19:3) And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

    (Revelation 19:4) And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

    (Revelation 19:5) And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

    (Revelation 19:6) And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

    [So, apparently, this is the final victory and may possibly coincide with Revelation 12, the only problem with this is that 'city' is confusing.&nbsp; If satan and his angels are to blame then why refer to them as a city?&nbsp;&nbsp;If it's the catholic church which I'm sure it's not, then why, again the reference to a city or what possible city rides on the whore that some claim that the catholic church is in Revelation, it doesn't make sense.&nbsp; Could we possibly know what the future or even current Babylon is until it is revealed through the Holy Spirit?&nbsp; I doubt it.&nbsp; I imagine when it's time, we'll all know exactly what is going on and what Revelation is talking about here.&nbsp; But until then, it is fun to discuss and speculate]

    BTW, I just ran through 3 or 4 major beliefs in who Babylon is, none of which I'm sure are right, I don't think it's time for us to know or we would.&nbsp; God bless!
     
  7. Messenger1

    Messenger1 New Member

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    Excellent point. The scriptures are replete with examples showing mystery Babylon speaks of Jerusalem. But does it refer to Spiritual Jerusalem or the middle eastern Jerusalem? This is where the mystery comes in. There are two Jerusalem's spoken of in scripture.
     
  8. Messenger1

    Messenger1 New Member

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    Ga 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
     
  9. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    No one&nbsp;living at the time Revelation was written would think Babylon was Jerusalem.&nbsp; Why would John use a nation that conquered Jerusalem to represent Jerusalem, it just doesn't make sense.&nbsp; I imagine that someone would post next that it wasn't written for them, it was written for the future generation that would see Christ's return, but I still can't see calling one city a conquering nation's name, it just doesn't fit.

    Edit: Also, how do you equate Jerusalem with Rev 19:2?&nbsp; How is Jerusalem responsible for ALL that were slain up the earth?

    &nbsp;

    (Rev 18:24) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
     
  10. Messenger1

    Messenger1 New Member

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    John had nothing to do with it except to move his hand to write. The Holy Bible is divinely inspired "Word of God," not something John thought up. The question then is not why would John, but why would God call Jerusalem babylon. The answer is, the same reason he calls her Sodom, Egypt, a harlot, etc. It symbolizes something spiritual about her and is not difficult at all to discern.
     
  11. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Generally Medicated

    +56
    Christian
    &nbsp;

    I'm not entirely up to date with all the prophecies either...i'm still learning .

    I am simply showing biblical scriptures that pinpoint Jerusalem/Jews as the mystery harlot woman other that what is more comonly taught..such as :&nbsp; the babylon of Iraq or the catholic church. .etc..etc.

    I also believe that the 7 mountains/hills/kings are not the hills of Rome but are empires that ruled over the jews :

    Egypt

    Assyria

    Babylon

    Media/persia

    Greek

    Rome

    That is 6 empires of the past that ruled over the jews , and it is believed we now await the resurrection of one of them...thus making a total of 7 empires in all .

    And as you would know Wildfire , all eyes are on europe.

    But I won't be discounting the Arab nations either .

    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
     
  12. booger

    booger GOD PICKED ME!!!!

    328
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    Wow what a good post.&nbsp; Alot of good points made and alot of things to go study and pray on.
     
  13. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    ok way off topic, but i read a book recently by a pastor giving the cases for all the opinions of what/where Babaylon may be. Ugh can't remeber the name exactly of the book or who wrote, and I loaned it to my pastor to read. But if I remeber correctly there's a case made for America, and then a specific case made for New York City. And what I found kinda funny/wierd about the New York City case is that there is a suburban town outside New York named Babylon.

    As for me, I haven't made my mind up to who/what/where it is. But I do have one question. In another post in this thread it was mentioned God would call his people out before the judgement. Ok so if America is the new Babylon, where are all the 'people called' gonna go???

    I dunno I guess when I hear about God calling his people out, I think of Moses leading his people out of Egypt. I gotta a lot more studying to do obviously

    gwyyn
     
  14. booger

    booger GOD PICKED ME!!!!

    328
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    &nbsp;

    O man i hope it ain't canaduh :eek:

    &nbsp;

    Just kiddin&nbsp;I lub u canadians , EH! :D
     
  15. Messenger1

    Messenger1 New Member

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    Five are Fallen, one was, and one is yet to come.

    Actually,
    Six are fallen now.
     
  16. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Generally Medicated

    +56
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    &nbsp;

    Yes I know Messenger , five had fallen at the time the book was written , the Roman empire was still in power at that time.

    And yes your right...six are fallen now .

    &nbsp;
     
  17. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    so you saying brain damage, that the 7 hills could also be the a representation of the&nbsp;kingdoms described&nbsp;in Daniel.&nbsp;What about the mixed metal statue in Daniel,&nbsp;the&nbsp;final part of the statue&nbsp;that &nbsp;was mixed clay and iron, could that also represent the 7th hill, the one to come????

    But how does Revelation 17:15 fit in with who/where Babylon is?
     
  18. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Actually no, he experienced it then wrote exactly what he experienced.&nbsp; I never said John made it up or thought it up, but it's not like he just got possessed and started writing it, he wrote about his amazing Revelation experience brought by an angel and alludes to such in the book.

    It is difficult to discern if you pay attention to ALL descriptions of it.&nbsp; You think Jerusalem is responsible for "ALL that were slain on the earth"?&nbsp; (Revelation 18:24)
     
  19. Messenger1

    Messenger1 New Member

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    It means the blood of those slain in this battle is upon their hands. A very clear and Biblical principle. e.g., God sets his people his watchmen, whom God holds responsible for the slain if they do not warn the people of danger, and the people be slain. For example in Ezekiel. It's not hard to discern if we compare scripture with scripture and let the Bible be it's own interpreter, instead of watching CNN, Fox and the latest movements in Iraq. As Joseph said, "Do not interpretations Belong to God?" Gen 40:8

    Or does anyone think that everyone on the earth will be slain in literal babylon? That would be absurd of course! We discern the truth by the spirit through the Word. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Israel didn't hear because they didn't search the scriptures to let them interpret themselves. An age old problem.

    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Far too many in the Church today are going that same route. Babylon is intimately identified as Jerusalem in the end times in passage after passage. Just as Christ was intimately identified as the Messiah in passage after passage. The problem was that people didn't search the scriptures.
     
  20. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Huh?&nbsp; What are you talking about?&nbsp; Who said they interpret scripture with cnn fox and 'latest movement in Iraq'?&nbsp; Why are you even trying to interpret what Babylon in Revelation refers to if "interpretations belong to God?" :rolleyes:

    alrighty then... that's your opinion... but I don't think the city of Jerusalem can be held accountable for every slain person in human history, that doesn't hold water.
     
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