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How can Adam be free to eat the apple when he was created to eat the fruit?
Don't just ignore what's obvious in the verse just because there are some hard things about it to understand (such as what the beast is in Revelation). We can draw some conclusions from this verse without even understanding the difficult things. For instance, we know God has a book with names in it. It doesn't matter if it's a physical book, which I grant to you it probably isn't, or if the "book" is metaphorical. What matters is this verse says God has a list of names and if your name is in this list you will not worship the beast, whatever the beast is is irrelevant. And the Lamb was slain for the names of the people on this list. When was the book written? This verse says, "before the foundation of the world." So before creation, God already knew that he would slay his Son. God could have not created the world. Or he could have created it a different way; in such a way that his Son would not have to be slain. But he did it this way, knowing already that his Son would be slain, and he did it that way because he wanted to. He planned it. It doesn't matter how you conceive on the immediate causality. If you know how something is going to turn out because of what you do and you know that later you'll do something else, and you want to do that, so you do it, we call that a plan. God created a world where sin would exist and his Son would be slain because he wanted to.All who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain (Revelation 13:8).
God planned Jesus' death. It can't get any clearer than that. Yet the Jews and Romans who participated are still responsible for their sins.Truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place (Acts 4:27-28).
I do not believe we were saved before the foundation of the world. That's not the conclusion I drew from that verse. The conclusion I drew was that before creation, God had already planned to send his Son to die. We hadn't yet believed, but God had already made plans to save us. Which means that before creation, God already knew we would sin, and I also believe God had plenty of other options in creation, this isn't the only world he could have created. But this is the one he did create, which tells us this is the one he wanted to create. Knowing that we would sin and he would send his Son to die for our sins, God created the world. He didn't have to do it that way, but he did. In all similar cases, we call that line of reasoning a plan. God planned our sin along with the death of his Son in creation. He didn't force us to sin, but he knew we would sin, he could have stopped us from sinning, he could have created the world a different way, but he made this world in which we would sin so that he could send his Son. That's a plan.I can show you hundreds of verses that say the same thing salvation comes after believe. How can you have read the bible and missed this simple teaching?
How can we have been saved before the creation when we have not believed yet?
You have proved to me that your God is a child molester and a liar and commits murder by quoting all these verses.
Why don’t you give God the glory when a person lies?
What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
"That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged."
But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just (Romans 3:3-8).
Because God is not the author of sin. Instead it is by God's withholding of his grace and goodness that we sin. As I have recently posted in another thread, Jonathan Edwards compared it to the sun. The sun is not the source of cold and darkness, rather the lack of the sun is the cause of cold and darkness. So it is with God. God cannot be called the source of sin, for he is the source of good and light. But it is by God withholding his grace and goodness through which he allows sin to enter the world, and he allows sin to enter the world to serve his good purposes.Why don’t you just come out and say God lied?
Why give him the glory only in the good things like salvation?
I will answer your question. God does not plan our sins. Nobody can resist Gods will in this way if God wants his people to enter the Promised Land they will enter. This does not mean he could irresistibly program people to accomplish his will. Look at Jonah for example if God could programmed him to go to Nineveh he would have programmed him and he would have said I want to go to Nineveh. God made Jonah go to Nineveh by having a fish swallow him instead. Why didn’t God change his heart?
What does that passage mean to you? Read the whole chapter if you'd like, so you can see why he is even bringing this question up. It's because he knows people are going to be asking this question because of what he has been teaching in the verses prior. He's preached this enough to know how people are going to respond, and he provides an answer to our questions knowing we would ask them.You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory (Romans 9:19-23).
I still don’t understand from your view, why did God wanted to kill his son before he created people?
May God's grace, mercy, and peace be with you,"Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again" (John 12:27-28).
You miss quoted Rev 13 (NASB)
Correct. I did not say Jesus was killed before the foundation of the world. I said before the foundation of the world God planned that Jesus would be killed thousands of years later.Jesus was not slain before the foundation but 2000 years ago.
This verse is showing we were saved before the foundation(our names written) and yet the bible says you are saved after believe.
Because salvation comes by faith.how can you not believe we were saved before the foundation when our names were written then?
See everything I said above.The Bible says confess with your mouth and you will be saved. Many of these verses tell us you will be saved not merely you may know you are saved. What do you do with verses like Rom 10:9 and Act 2:38 where it show you were not saved before believe?
Would you say God believed when a person believed? Of course not! Would you say God ran a mile when a person ran a mile? Of course not! God ordains all things, but in ordaining all things he is not the doer, he is the planner.You have not answered my other question (maybe I was not clear) Why would you say God saved a person when that person believes but not say God lied when a person lies?
Paul said God gets glory when a person molests a child. Do you agree with Paul or do you think Paul was a liar?You say you give God the glory when a person molests a child. Would you say God is a child molester or you dont really give him the glory?
Didn't Jesus say, "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends" ? If that is true, then it is only possible for God to show his love the most in a world where there is death and we deserve it. Otherwise, Christ couldn't have died for us and couldn't have showed us the greatest act of love.I also dont understand how is giving his son before we have done anything bad is love ? Explain.
We know he predestined according to his foreknowledge.
Now here you will get an argument from me based on that sentence.
Rom. 8:29 does not teach predestination based on God's "foreknowledge."
That verse says he wrote the names in the book of life. We know he predestined according to his foreknowledge. God wrote the names knowing the future.
He knows what decisions we would make but does not create us to go to hell.
No. God is no child molester, nor is he a murderer, nor is he a thief, nor has he ever done anyone wrong. To say God is a child molester is to accuse him of doing someone wrong. God has planned that every child molestation happen, but in doing it he has done no one wrong, and he was not the molester; the molester was the person doing the molesting.If I understand you correctly you are saying God is a child molester and a liar. You even quoted verses to prove it. Am I right?
If God Does the disaster, "Does disaster come to a city unless the LORD has done it?"If you want to buy a house, and you don't have the money, but you borrow it in order to provide a home for your family, you know that's going to mean you'll have to work extra hard to pay off the loan. And you're willing to work extra hard to pay off the loan because you want your family to have a house. That's called a plan. You do not have to buy your family a house. You can live in your car, you can get an apartment for a cheaper rate, but you want your family to have a house, so you plan to borrow the money and work extra hard to pay it off. That's a plan.
Before God created us, he knew we would sin, you agree with that. God could have not created us, or he could have created us a different way. But God wanted to create us the way he did, that's obvious by the fact that we're here. If he hadn't wanted to create humans who would fall to sin he had plenty of ways to not do it that way. (1) He could have not created Satan; he knew Satan would sin before creating Satan. (2) He could have prevented Satan from tempting Eve; he knew Satan would tempt Eve and he allowed it. (3) He could have not created the tree of knowledge of good and evil; when he created the tree he already knew Adam and Eve would eat from it; he could have simply not created it. (4) He could have prevented Eve from taking the fruit. (5) He could have prevented Eve from giving the fruit to Adam. (6) He could have simply not created Adam and Eve; he knew exactly what would happen when he created them, just like you would know you'd have to work extra hard to pay off a loan. (7) He could have created Adam and Eve in a different way.
This list can go on and on. At the end of the day, we are left knowing one basic thing: God did it this way because this is the way God wanted to do it. It does not matter how you conceive on the immediate causality. It makes no difference if you think he predestined because he foreknew or he foreknew because he predestined. It's still a plan.
In your case, you wanted to work extra hard so that you could buy a house for your family. In God's case, we know he wanted Christ to endure suffering long before he created the world because Christ did endure suffering and God knew he would suffer before creating the world. But it would be wrong of me to say you took out a loan simply because you wanted to work hard. You didn't take out a loan because you wanted to work hard, you wanted to work hard so you could pay off the loan that you took out because you wanted to buy a house. Similarly, God did not create the world because he wanted his Son to suffer. God wanted his Son to suffer so that his Son could get the praise that only a suffering Savior can. God created the world so that his Son would be praised by the redeemed, and in order to get his Son the praise that only a Redeemer can, he created a world in which his Son would suffer. This is easy to understand, and it's clear in the Bible. I have offered numerous scriptural references, and you have simply ignored them and said, "That's not my God." If your God did not inspire the scriptures, then what God do you worship?
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory (Romans 9).
No. God is no child molester, nor is he a murderer, nor is he a thief, nor has he ever done anyone wrong. To say God is a child molester is to accuse him of doing someone wrong. God has planned that every child molestation happen, but in doing it he has done no one wrong, and he was not the molester; the molester was the person doing the molesting.
You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good (Genesis 50:20).
The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD (Job 1:21).You interpret it. What does Job 1:21 mean? To remind you, Job had just lost all ten of his children when the roof of the house collapsed where they were eating, and his response is, "God gave me my children, and God took them from me; blessed be his name."
I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things (Isaiah 45:7).
Does disaster come to a city unless the LORD has done it? (Amos 3:6)God planned the airplanes to crash into the World Trade Center on 9/11. 9/11 was a great disaster in New York. Amos 3:6 says, no disaster comes to a city unless God does it. Can you interpret it another way? This is not a complicated exegesis; it's simply reading the Bible and believing it means what it says, rather than ignoring what it says and believing what you want it to mean.
God bless,
Nathan
If God Does the disaster, "Does disaster come to a city unless the LORD has done it?"
The Lord killed Job's kids and from the verses you misquoted shows God is the child molester, is the thief and is the liar.
I don't know why you are trying to defend your God just come out and say it God is the child molester and the liar.
That verse says he wrote the names in the book of life. We know he predestined according to his foreknowledge. God wrote the names knowing the future. He knows what decisions we would make but does not create us to go to hell.
When you say "God ordains all things, but in ordaining all things he is not the doer, he is the planner."
Why do you give him credit when one comes to Christ?
If I understand you correctly you are saying God is a child molester and a liar. You even quoted verses to prove it. Am I right?
Would you sacrifice your son to show you love your son that has not come into the world? This is non-sense.
Jesus died because of our sins after we sinned Christ became the lamb and took away our sins, it was not because God wanted to kill his son so he created people that sin.
If God Does the disaster, "Does disaster come to a city unless the LORD has done it?"
The Lord killed Job's kids and from the verses you misquoted shows God is the child molester, is the thief and is the liar.
I don't know why you are trying to defend your God just come out and say it God is the child molester and the liar.
Yes. Why do you think that God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and made a law that He knew would be broken? The law being do not eat from that tree. Did God hope for a different outcome?Do Calvinists believe that God predestined the fall, and that God had meant to have Adam and Eve take of the "fruit"?
Do Calvinists believe God is powerful enough to create man with free will to eat or not to eat?Yes. Why do you think that God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and made a law that He knew would be broken? The law being do not eat from that tree. Did God hope for a different outcome?
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
When did He start working all things out after the counsel of His will? Was it yesterday?
Do arminians believe that God is powerful enough to create a rock too heavy for Him to move?Do Calvinists believe God is powerful enough to create man with free will to eat or not to eat?
God knew what Adam was going to do before Adam ate of The Fruit. He didn't create him to eat it.Do arminians believe that God is powerful enough to create a rock too heavy for Him to move?
"Power" to do something contrary to His nature is not coherent. God knows all things. To create something that is capable of defeating His omniscience is incoherent. How would He know all things if there were something a man could do that He did not know would happen? You maybe infer that God plays peek-a-boo with Himself? Mighty hilarious scenario to cling to so's you can keep your self importance intact, don't you think?
Then:God knew what Adam was going to do before Adam ate of The Fruit.
If God knew Adam was going to eat the fruit before he did so, then one of the purposes He created him for was to eat of the fruit. Your statement is incoherent.He didn't create him to eat it.
They never say He didn't either, but it can be easily deduced from the simple fact that God is omniscient. Nothing happens that He has not decreed. He created Adam to eat the fruit because Adam ate the fruit. Very simple.The scriptures never say he created him to eat of the fruit. God was angry when Adam ate of the fruit that shows God didn't create Adam to eat the fruit.
Why do you accept there are somethings God can't do and not accept there are somethings God can't know?
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