The Faith Icon Controversy

[Lotar]

I know there are more than enough threads on this subject, but I thought, "what the heck, why not one more?"

Perhaps I'm missing a few things, but this is how I see what brought this issue to a head.
1.) Of late it has seemed that we have be hit by an abnormal amount of fakodox laity, and now even clergy.
2.) Our friend K3 unwittingly broke many of the unwritten rules of catechumen/inquirer behavoir in TAW and moreso in the GT.
3.) Now we have someone who is, for all intents and purposes, excommunicated and is telling everyone that the Orthodox Church teaches a symbolic Eucharist.

I think everyone can pretty much agree that something should be done, but there are arguments over how to do it.

So, here are some of my ideas on what should be done:
1.) We should put together and submit a list of canonical Orthodox Churches, which rules would require members to be associated with prior to taking the Orthodox faith icon. Which would help non-Orthodox Admins, and make the process less descressionary.
2.A.) K3 has now, to my understanding, graciously accepted our advise and corrected his actions, and thankfully isn't going to present us with a Matthew777 situation. Perhaps we should make the unwritten rules into written (yet unofficial) rules, so that this will be less likely to happen again. For the most part, our Catechumen/Inquirer members conduct themselves humbly, do not present their views as the official views of the Church, and rarely involve themselves in the GT. So, I do not think restricting their faith icon is really necessary.
2.B.) According to Church practice, Catechumens are allowed to call themselves Orthodox. As it has been related to me, the serious inquirer stage is akin to courting, you are interested and seriously considering marriage, but have not become committed yet. Becoming a Catechumen is akin to betrothal; you have irreversably committed yourself to marriage. So, if we were to restrict anyone, I think it should only be the inquirers (who mostly do not use the icon anyways).

I think we should be warry of going overboard with rules just because of a few recent incidents. That is my two cents.

 

[kamikat]

As I have said before, there is nothing that the membership can do about any of these situations. It is part and parcel of us participating in an ecumenical message board. People keep saying "we need to do something" "we should restrict the icon",. yada yada. "We" can't do anything. Upper level staff are the only ones who can do anything and other than an OAD, who has said that he's too busy to be involved in the day-to-day workings of CF, there's no one who can do anything. This is all a pointless use of our energy. Either we learn to relax and understand that CF is just a hobby or we can all leave and go to those message boards that are Orthodox only and strictly forbid non-canonical users.

 

[Protoevangel]

I like all of your ideas, but I have one question.

According to Church practice, Catechumens are allowed to call themselves Orthodox. As it has been related to me, the serious inquirer stage is akin to courting, you are interested and seriously considering marriage, but have not become committed yet. Becoming a Catechumen is akin to betrothal; you have irreversably committed yourself to marriage. So, if we were to restrict anyone, I think it should only be the inquirers (who mostly do not use the icon anyways).

You claim, in a manner, that I am not committed yet. If I were able, however, I would be a Catechumen right now, but my Bishop, in his great wisdom, requires a year before an inquirer can become a Catechumen. I have no doubt that this requirement is both wise, and loving of my Bishop, but please do not assume that I am not committed. I am indeed, and completely, committed.

Are you suggesting that I should not be allowed the option to display a faith icon that reflects both my commitment to the Orthodox Faith, and my status as not having been fully accepted into the Church yet?

 

[Lotar]

I like all of your ideas, but I have one question.

You claim, in a manner, that I am not committed yet. If I were able, however, I would be a Catechumen right now, but my Bishop, in his great wisdom, requires a year before an inquirer can become a Catechumen. I have no doubt that this requirement is both wise, and loving of my Bishop, but please do not assume that I am not committed. I am indeed, and completely, committed.

Are you suggesting that I should not be allowed the option to display a faith icon that reflects both my commitment to the Orthodox Faith, and my status as not having been fully accepted into the Church yet?

Dan,

I don't mean to insult you, I was not refering to your commitment to the Faith, I mean a commitment in an official sense. When you are betrothed, you cannot break it without a divorce. Becoming a catechumen is the preverbial point of no return.

 

[Akathist]

Becoming a Catechumen is a service of the Church and is done officially by the Church.

I disagree with kamikat, I believe membership can influence things that happen and certainly peer pressure has been effective in the past.

I can't speak to anything that K3 may have done as I clearly missed it, but I think anything he did was with innocent motives.

We have however had many who do not have innocent motives that have resented the effectiveness of TAW and its members in other areas of CF in bringing the truth about our faith to light so that others are now seeking more information and many have converted. We have also had people who just want to stir up trouble for the entertainment of it, but nevertheless, they harm the work we are doing here.

Therefore, I strongly suggest that we do not "suck it up".

At the same time, I also agree with statements made by former staff (not naming any names here) that at all times we must protect ourselves from damage to our spiritual lives. I would like to see this matter shelved by Feb 19th not to reappear until after Pascha.

 

[Protoevangel]

Dan,

I don't mean to insult you, I was not refering to your commitment to the Faith, I mean a commitment in an official sense. When you are betrothed, you cannot break it without a divorce. Becoming a catechumen is the preverbial point of no return.

I understand you meant no offence, and I was not hurt by your words, I know they are in good faith. But the fact remains that where I am now, regarding the Church, is exactly why I hope for the new Faith Icon.

Also, let's say if the inquirer "Bubba Ho-Tep" had the "green" icon, and made a post suggesting something like what harry has been saying. You would instantly know it was out of bubba's ignorance, and would direct him to speak with his Priest for instruction.
If it were the Orthodox member "Good Ash", you would know he was denying a major tenent of his proposed faith, and could direct him to speak with his Priest for confession and instruction.

 

[Michael G]

...fakodox laity...

BRILLIANT!

 

[Canadian75]

I would like to see this matter shelved by Feb 19th not to reappear until after Pascha.

best idea I've heard so far.


Peace.

 

[Lotar]

I understand you meant no offence, and I was not hurt by your words, I know they are in good faith. But the fact remains that where I am now, regarding the Church, is exactly why I hope for the new Faith Icon.

Also, let's say if the inquirer "Bubba Ho-Tep" had the "green" icon, and made a post suggesting something like what harry has been saying. You would instantly know it was out of bubba's ignorance, and would direct him to speak with his Priest for instruction.
If it were the Orthodox member "Good Ash", you would know he was denying a major tenent of his proposed faith, and could direct him to speak with his Priest for confession and instruction.

I must come out now against soul sucking mummies having any sort of Orthodox faith icon.

Oh, and be carefull when confronting Good Ash, because he's the one with the boomstick.

 

[Lotar]

As I have said before, there is nothing that the membership can do about any of these situations. It is part and parcel of us participating in an ecumenical message board. People keep saying "we need to do something" "we should restrict the icon",. yada yada. "We" can't do anything. Upper level staff are the only ones who can do anything and other than an OAD, who has said that he's too busy to be involved in the day-to-day workings of CF, there's no one who can do anything. This is all a pointless use of our energy. Either we learn to relax and understand that CF is just a hobby or we can all leave and go to those message boards that are Orthodox only and strictly forbid non-canonical users.

If Erwin hears the idea and thinks it is reasonable, it usually gets addressed. I am basically responsible for getting the Protestant faith icons split up into more specific denominations. So it certainly can happen.

 

[choirfiend]

These issues are going to be a matter of private discussion between some TAW representatives and CF staff. Rest assured it is being discussed, but please let's cease further public debate until we have some more work done behind the scenes, which will obviously be presented to everyone eventually.

Thank you.

 

[Lotar]

Do to the request of the mods, I am asking that this thread be closed.