The Existence of God

[One Of The Elect]

I posted this before here. I am not sure where it went. It was to accompany my " Lie of Evolution thread." I am not asking if you do or do not believe in God. As Christians obviously you do.But rather , do you think this is a good way to present the argument for God to a non- believer. I posted this in a religious forum "Evolution vs Creationism" and it was removed with no reason as to why. So, I would like to propose my argument in fellowship with you. If you see something to elaborate upon please feel free. Also, I tend to write off the cuff when inspired. If it does not seem to be very polished that is fine to me, I like to convey things as I receive them. References used in my argument are found on the" NASA "website," Isaac Newton's Laws of Motion" And Wikipedia for " Fibonacci Sequence". I enjoy the fellowship here, I hope we have a great, respectful discussion. God Bless!​

 

[Halbhh]

I posted this before here. I am not sure where it went. It was to accompany my " Lie of Evolution thread." I am not asking if you do or do not believe in God. As Christians obviously you do.But rather , do you think this is a good way to present the argument for God to a non- believer. I posted this in a religious forum "Evolution vs Creationism" and it was removed with no reason as to why. So, I would like to propose my argument in fellowship with you. If you see something to elaborate upon please feel free. Also, I tend to write off the cuff when inspired. If it does not seem to be very polished that is fine to me, I like to convey things as I receive them. References used in my argument are found on the" NASA "website," Isaac Newton's Laws of Motion" And Wikipedia for " Fibonacci Sequence". I enjoy the fellowship here, I hope we have a great, respectful discussion. God Bless!​

I like your first paragraph, but there is a more key thing to consider when speaking to those who don't know of Christ Jesus.

Millions and millions of people that are lost, non believers, and not having attended churches, many never, some others only for funerals or weddings, or Christmas, they have not heard the gospel, the message of the very Son of God coming here to save us from our sins, dying for us, and rising again, that we might be given Life.

The haven't heard His actual Words, which speak to human hearts profoundly, to all.

They've never had a chance to hear --

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

"Love your neighbor as yourself."

"Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

(Even some attending churches haven't heard that last one, and could, if you would convey it)

Not having heard His Words, how could they ever find Him?

Instead, for millions and millions, what they know of "Christianity" is only what they see/hear in news headlines, things like scandals or Westboro Baptist Church, or sometimes (less of a headline, less known by the non believers) that a local church does a good act of charity.

But do they even know 1/2 of the gospel? No, they do not!

Millions, even tens of millions, even perhaps 100 million(!) don't know the full message of the Good News, the gospel.

So, how in the world can one version of small details of how God created all things emphasized over another version of small details of how God created all things save them?

The messages of various versions of creation cannot save their souls! Neither doctrine A about creation, nor doctrine B, not either one.

Coming to Christ saves them.

So, what they need to hear is to hear of Christ.

 

[SkyWriting]

Millions and millions of people that are lost, non believers, and not having attended churches, many never, some others only for funerals or weddings, or Christmas, they have not heard the gospel, the message of the very Son of God coming here to save us from our sins, dying for us, and rising again, that we might be given Life.They don't know even that.
Instead, for millions and millions, what they know of "Christianity" is only what they see/hear in news headlines, things like scandals or Westboro Baptist Church, or sometimes (less of a headline, less known by the non believers) that a local church does a good act of charity.But do they even know 1/2 of the gospel? No, they do not!Millions, even tens of millions, even perhaps 100 million(!) don't know the full message of the Good News, the gospel.

Especially the ones who died before Jesus was born.
They sure have it rough!

The only way into Hell is to purposely reject Gods Holy Spirit.
Hearing the entire story of Jesus is not a requirement.

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them,
because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world
God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature,
have been clearly seen, being understood from
His workmanship,so that men are without excuse.

 

[Halbhh]

Especially the ones who died before Jesus was born.
They sure have it rough!

Well, it's entirely off the subject of how to tell people here and now about Christ, but when you learn from the epistle 1 Peter in chapter 3, you see the basis for the idea that even those souls that passed before hearing the gospel will have a chance at hearing the gospel and a chance to be saved by it. But if you didn't agree with that reasonable interpretation of that passage in 1 Peter, you still have the clear wording of Romans chapter 2, verses 6-16 to answer your question.

But the way you worded your 2nd paragraph, it seems we simply agree already.

The 3rd paragraph is about those truly rejecting even the possibility of God, as best I can tell, seemingly about the hardened atheist, but not about the agnostic. Many, not a few, agnostics will be saved by hearing, for the first time ever, the words of Christ Jesus.

 

[One Of The Elect]

I like your first paragraph, but there is a more key thing to consider when speaking to those who don't know of Christ Jesus.

Millions and millions of people that are lost, non believers, and not having attended churches, many never, some others only for funerals or weddings, or Christmas, they have not heard the gospel, the message of the very Son of God coming here to save us from our sins, dying for us, and rising again, that we might be given Life.

The haven't heard His actual Words, which speak to human hearts profoundly, to all.

They've never had a chance to hear --

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

"Love your neighbor as yourself."

"Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

(Even some attending churches haven't heard that last one, and could, if you would convey it)

Not having heard His Words, how could they ever find Him?

Instead, for millions and millions, what they know of "Christianity" is only what they see/hear in news headlines, things like scandals or Westboro Baptist Church, or sometimes (less of a headline, less known by the non believers) that a local church does a good act of charity.

But do they even know 1/2 of the gospel? No, they do not!

Millions, even tens of millions, even perhaps 100 million(!) don't know the full message of the Good News, the gospel.

So, how in the world can one version of small details of how God created all things emphasized over another version of small details of how God created all things save them?

The messages of various versions of creation cannot save their souls! Neither doctrine A about creation, nor doctrine B, not either one.

Coming to Christ saves them.

Full stop. Period.

So, stop preaching/arguing about small details of how God created all things to those who are lost from even knowing Who Christ is, one doctrine vs another doctrine, and instead follow the Great Commision!

I agree with you. I just felt , first to prove God to them was necessary. And based on that share with them who Salvation comes from. I try to , in the simplest way express God's existence. There is only so much time, attention spans can be limited. I wanted to peek curiosity and then go into the gospel. And no doubt- I give glory for all I know to YESHUA! Thank you for your commentary, God Bless!

 

[miamited]

Hi OOTE,

No! If I were sharing with an unbeliever the gospel, I would not start with evolution vs. creationism as my opening proposition. The gospel is all about forgiveness of sin and so the explanation I would make to an unbeliever of the gospel would be about sin and how God sent the appropriate sacrifice that our sin could be forgiven.

However, I think we need to be mindful of the purpose of conversation. Every conversation is not about explaining the gospel. Especially here on christian boards. I think it is to be assumed that those participating on such discussion venues who represent themselves as christians have already heard the gospel. What happens on christian threads is that we desire, supposedly, to move into what Paul refers to as the 'meatier' matters of our God and truth.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Halbhh]

I agree with you. I just felt , first to prove God to them was necessary. And based on that share with them who Salvation comes from. I try to , in the simplest way express God's existence. There is only so much time, attention spans can be limited. I wanted to peek curiosity and then go into the gospel. And no doubt- I give glory for all I know to YESHUA! Thank you for your commentary, God Bless!

Ah, so...maybe you are actually talking about trying to bring the good news to atheists? Some, some portion, will turn, and eventually find God. How to bring the Good News to atheists in the way that actually does work? It's by the wonderful actual words of our Lord, Jesus, Christ, speaking to their hearts, I believe. This is what turned me to Him.

The majority will be left only cold by a message that isn't the message of Jesus, but instead just some arguing about evolution. Cold, and lost.

You could think of it as how Paul ministered in Athens, for instance. Not by saying "you've got that wrong" or anything even slightly similar. You can read and see just what Paul did in Acts chapter 17, beginning at verse 16, but read that passage, getting the little pieces of how he succeeded, like in verse 22-23. He spent days listening and learning, so that he could speak to them. 1 Cor chapter 9 has more, around verse 22, but read more than one verse, always, to be sure you get all the pieces.

We don't win people to Christ by arguing about small details.

What Paul definitely did not do is say to them 'you've got that wrong', etc.

Paul actually was agreeing with parts of what they thought! and building from it!

We have to tell them the Good News, and Christ's words are the words that penetrate to the heart.

BUT FIRST YOU NEED TO READ FULLY THE GOSPELS, so that you have the full, true, accurate Good News to share!

!

It's important though to also avoid preaching a mere doctrine about creation (one version of creation vs another version) to young converts, those new in faith! Why? Because you might trip them, and cause them to fall, and then face the great danger described in Matthew chapter 18, of the millstone.

 

[One Of The Elect]

Hi OOTE,

No! If I were sharing with an unbeliever the gospel, I would not start with evolution vs. creationism as my opening proposition. The gospel is all about forgiveness of sin and so the explanation I would make to an unbeliever of the gospel would be about sin and how God sent the appropriate sacrifice that our sin could be forgiven.

However, I think we need to be mindful of the purpose of conversation. Every conversation is not about explaining the gospel. Especially here on christian boards. I think it is to be assumed that those participating on such discussion venues who represent themselves as christians have already heard the gospel. What happens on christian threads is that we desire, supposedly, to move into what Paul refers to as the 'meatier' matters of our God and truth.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

Oh no, no, .This is something in an atheism forum on a religious website. They also blocked me from discussing Christ. As a matter of fact a Jewish man from the Judaism forum respond to my post 'The existence of God" like this "No mercy, no regrets". Referring to the Crucifixion of Christ. He was not banned, I was. I was answering in a forum discussing Creationism and Evolution. They said it was an open debate, they who are atheist had no rebuttal so they removed my post. Thank you for sharing your view.
May God Bless you too.

 

[Halbhh]

Oh no, no, .This is something in an atheism forum on a religious website. They also blocked me from discussing Christ. As a matter of fact a Jewish man from the Judaism forum respond to my post 'The existence of God" like this "No mercy, no regrets". Referring to the Crucifixion of Christ. He was not banned, I was. I was answering in a forum discussing Creationism and Evolution. They said it was an open debate, they who are atheist had no rebuttal so they removed my post. Thank you for sharing your view.
May God Bless you too.

If you want to discuss various theories like evolution and various versions of creationism (there are at least 3 main versions, and many variations of those) you need to entirely separate that 100% from other times you try to actually tell people about Christ!

Even to go entirely to a different web site, so that the 2 activities have no connection at all!

Why?

Please see post #7 (it took me a few edits to finally get all the pieces into post #7 needed).

 

[One Of The Elect]

Ah, so...maybe you are actually talking about trying to bring the good news to atheists? Some, some portion, will turn, and eventually find God. How to bring the Good News to atheists in the way that actually does work? It's by the wonderful actual words of our Lord, Jesus, Christ, speaking to their hearts, I believe. This is what turned me to Him.

The majority will be left only cold by a message that isn't the message of Jesus, but instead just some arguing about evolution. Cold, and lost.

You could think of it as how Paul ministered in Athens, for instance. Not by saying "you've got that wrong" or anything even slightly similar. You can read and see just what Paul did in Acts chapter 17, beginning at verse 16, but read that passage, getting the little pieces of how he succeeded, like in verse 22-23. He spent days listening and learning, so that he could speak to them. 1 Cor chapter 9 has more, around verse 22, but read more than one verse, always, to be sure you get all the pieces.

We don't win people to Christ by arguing about small details.

What Paul definitely did not do is say to them 'you've got that wrong', etc.

Paul actually was agreeing with parts of what they thought! and building from it!

We have to tell them the Good News, and Christ's words are the words that penetrate to the heart.

I think I get it. So, you are saying what I wrote was not from Yeshua, but self, though no one could dispute it or disprove my argument for God's existence. I did not think I was disregarding the Big Bang but injecting God into the Big Bang as to He is the source of it. I thought I used scripture to support my claims but, you are saying I did not use enough? Are you talking about this post or my other one ,"The Lie of Evolution"?
I use Issac Newton's Laws of Motion and the Fibonacci Sequence, you are saying I was not to use those references to prove the Existence of God but more scripture? I think I get where you are coming from. God Bless!

 

[Halbhh]

I think I get it. So, you are saying what I wrote was not from Yeshua, but self, though no one could dispute it or disprove my argument for God's existence. I did not think I was disregarding the Big Bang but injecting God into the Big Bang as to He is the source of it. I thought I used scripture to support my claims but, you are saying I did not use enough? Are you talking about this post or my other one ,"The Lie of Evolution"?
I use Issac Newton's Laws of Motion and the Fibonacci Sequence, you are saying I was not to use those references to prove the Existence of God but more scripture? I think I get where you are coming from. God Bless!

The title 'the lie of evolution' -- it's got a major problem if you wish to bring the Good News to people!

Which way to understand the small details (small details not in the scripture at all, either way) of how God created all that is, whether by method A or by method B or by a combination of A and B, or A and C....etc.

Those arguments about how God created are not helpful to people. It's possibly a way to block someone from finding out more about Christianity, at the worst. Very easily.

For instance, I believe the "days" in Genesis chapter 1 are actually 24 hour days, but also I think (small detail) that time passed between the days, and that the days were revealed in a vision.

That viewpoint doesn't matter !

It does not matter the small details!

It does not matter even if I got it totally wrong, and the "days" are symbolic, as in some visions where things are represented only symbolically, in the Bible.

It doesn't matter at all, not a bit, if my view is correct.

What matters is that I have come to Christ Jesus, in faith, and been rescued.

He saves. Not us, and not our viewpoints.

 

[One Of The Elect]

If you want to discuss various theories like evolution and various versions of creationism (there are at least 3 main versions, and many variations of those) you need to entirely separate that 100% from other times you try to actually tell people about Christ!

Even to go entirely to a different web site, so that the 2 activities have no connection at all!

Why?

Please see post #7 (it took me a few edits to finally get all the pieces into post #7 needed).

I am not sure I follow?

 

[Resha Caner]

I posted this before here.​

​

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

 

[One Of The Elect]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

What point is anyone trying to make here?

 

[Halbhh]

I am not sure I follow?

Maybe post #11 will help answer. Your title of this thread itself is causing us to point out that such arguments about evolution don't help bring people to Christ. In post #7 I added in pointing to how Paul effectively communicated to non believers in Athens, in the book of Acts, and again more in 1 Corinthians, ways that actually work. You've got to totally....put Christ first and make the personal sacrifice of laying entirely (100%) aside any pet theories about creationism (say your own viewpoint as being more correct than mine or Stanley's or Jane's, etc.), so that you don't preach a version of creationism instead of telling the Good News, when you are talking to anyone that doesn't yet have Christ, hasn't yet heard His Words, which can save them. Could you eventually end up talking about your ideas in your attachment with an individual after they had heard the good news? Possibly. It's not the first thing to say. Nor the 2nd. Nor the 3rd even. I think people have to sense we are...reasonable (or put another word here, like 'friendly' or 'convincing' or 'rational' or whatever, like Paul) from their own point of view, just like Paul accomplished.

In Acts and 1 Cor, for instance. Just like in those passages as in post #7 above.

 

[miamited]

Oh no, no, .This is something in an atheism forum on a religious website. They also blocked me from discussing Christ. As a matter of fact a Jewish man from the Judaism forum respond to my post 'The existence of God" like this "No mercy, no regrets". Referring to the Crucifixion of Christ. He was not banned, I was. I was answering in a forum discussing Creationism and Evolution. They said it was an open debate, they who are atheist had no rebuttal so they removed my post. Thank you for sharing your view.
May God Bless you too.

Hi OOTE,

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that this was some slight you had received in another board that you were attempting to air out here. I think one must understand that the general belief in Judaism is that Jesus was not the Messiah promised them in the old covenant. So, I wouldn't be surprised that someone in the 'Judaism' forums would shoot you down in explaining to them who Jesus is, but that shouldn't stop you from trying. Paul did. According to the Scriptures, it was Paul's general practice when he went into a new city, that he would go first to the local Jewish meeting place. Then, after expounding to them on the truth of Jesus, he would turn his attentions to the general population. I think the book of the Acts of the Apostles makes clear that Paul was most regularly shot down among the Jews. So, your suffering is in line with what christians have often suffered when working among Jews. If you're familiar with the Scriptures, that shouldn't surprise you.

However, that doesn't mean that we don't keep trying. One of the 'truths' that I've found is that when working in the world, most of us will be fortunate to convert one in one hundred of those that we speak to. Some have better numbers than this and some have worse. It often depends on the group that you're sharing with. If one goes into a prison where men are depressed and in pain over their situation, the results can be somewhat better. If one works within the confines of some addiction group the results can be better also.

Don't be overly concerned about it. I've actually been through a 30 day ban right here on this site, but that doesn't stop me from speaking what I believe to be the truth. We do need to be respectful and share the gospel in love and it has been my experience that such a thing can be trying at times. Consider that even Jesus, the Son of the living God who knows the heart of every man, wasn't particularly successful in explaining what the new covenant was to most of Israel. Fortunately, he gained, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, enough people that his message survived and will always survive until the end. But the Scriptures never intimate that the gospel of our salvation will be generally, or even largely accepted, by most of the world.

We need to always understand, especially in this work of spreading the gospel, that there are many who are on the broad road and will likely continue to be so, and there are few who find the narrow way. Our efforts are to find those few.

However, as regards this thinking and understanding of creation vs. evolution, you won't find a lot of agreement even among christians as to what is the truth, and I would similarly not expect to find a lot of agreement within Judaism.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted