The existence of ghosts?

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Ragnaros

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Do you believe in ghosts? If so, how do you explain what they are from a theological point of view? II Corinthians 5:6-8 says that to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. But, the NET Bible version for 5:8 says "5:8 Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.", which leads me to believe that the verse may mean something different.

I believe in ghosts, as there is just simply way too much anecdotal evidence for them. I find the ghost phenomenon incredibly interesting, and plan to go "ghost hunting" (where you basically just chill at a "haunted" location with some people, waiting for something paranormal to occur) sometime to learn more about it.

As far as ghostly phenomenon goes, there are many different kinds of phenomena. If we are to explain ghostly phenoma theologically, we'll need to explain each category individually, as each category is very different. I'll list a few...

-"Playback" - this is when it seems as if events from the past are replaying themselves. Sometimes there is a full blown ghostly apparition that can be seen, but it can't be interacted with at all. Some people in Gettysburg claim to have seen Civil War soldiers marching, only to suddenly disappear. This would be an example of this category - it's like a rip in time/space or something.

-Poltergeist activity - this includes all the small and odd things that happen. From unexplained noises, to objects mysteriously disappearing or being moved by themselves (some people claim to have seen items being physically floating in the air when being moved), to lights turning on and off by themselves or doors opening and closing by themselves.

-Full blown ghost - this one is the rarest and perhaps most frightening. This is when we actually see a ghost that responds to what we say or do. Sometimes the ghosts look like normal humans, but other times there is something horribly wrong about them (like a head that moves unnaturally on the neck, or a mouth full of bloody razor sharp teeth). If any category could be explained by demons, it would probably be this one, especially considering the horrific forms many of them take that would suggest that they are not, and never were, human.

-Shadow people - this can be another very frightening phenomenon. It is similar to the category above, but the form that is taken is like shadow. Witnesses claim that the shadow people are blacker than the darkest black, almost as if the shadow people are made of pure nothingness. Sometimes witnesses report that the shadow people have eyes, but there are never any other features about them. Most people with shadow people experiences claim that they got a vibe of pure evil and pure dread when they directly looked at the shadow people, like they were looking at something that wasn't supposed to exist. Most of the time, people with shadow people experiences just claim that they saw one out of the corner of their eye, but when they looked, nothing was there. This category could also be explained by demons, easily.

In all of the categories except the first one (though the first one may be affected too, I am not sure about that though) it seems as if telling whoever or whatever it is to leave in the name of Jesus Christ actually works. It's as if these "spirits" (or whatever they are) are frightened at the name of Jesus. I think this is pretty cool, as even non believers who are ghost enthusiasts accept this fact.
 

twosid

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There aren't any ghosts. There are no UFO's.

I lump these in the same category because the sightings are so similar.

Don't you think that just once someone who saw either of these things would have their camera in focus? As most video and 35mm cameras have been capable of focusing themselves for the last 10 years or so. Wouldn't someone just by accident get a clear picture? You know why they don't? That's right! Because it's BS. Just how much money do you think just one clear photo of either would generate? "Quick Bob! take the camera out of focus!"

Ever seen a picture of a beautifull woman (apparition) standing at the foot of some guys bed? Hell no, it's always some guy in a cival war uniform or something equally ridiculous. Who wants a guy in a cival war outfit running around their house? ;)

I probably have an unhealthy level of interest in the supernatural so I'm certainly not hostile to the thought. I even run SETI@home on my machine. You probably will have some fun if you go "ghost hunting" but you ain't gonna see a ghost.
 
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autumnknight

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Hello, Ragnaros! When it comes to actively investigating ghosts and the supernatural, I think that this is something that any sincere Christian should be very careful about. As a Christian our first source of guidance in these matters should always be the Bible. I've seen nothing in the Scriptures to indicate that the souls of those who have died hang around to haunt houses or other earthly locations. In fact, the Bible states rather clearly that the dead do not have contact with the living(Luke 16:19-31) and forbids attempted contact with departed spirits(Deut 18:11). Unfortunately I can see little good coming from a fascination with this particular subject as it usually serves only as distraction from cultivating a truly meaningful relationship with the Lord and study of His Word. Whatever you may decide to do with regard to this sort of activity, Ragnaros, I pray that you would proceed carefully and seek the Lord's guidance with all diligence.
 
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bertie

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what about the appearance of the immediately deceased person to a close associate or relative?these usually are not scary,and are very real to those whom it has occurred.
They usually only take place at the time of death of the deceased, and actually seem to bring with them a sense of peace and love.
There are certainly demons and evil spirits in the world as we are warned about them, so that does provide some explanation.
There is nothing that i have come across in scripture that precludes the existance of other levels of existance than that which we experience.Like parrallell universes.
Given that God is infinite and eternal, we cant rule out the possiblity that there are other mansions of which we are not informed.Similarly we cannot rule out the possibility of other inhabitants in the universe.
It almost stands to reason that we are not the end all and the be all of Gods creation.
 
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Diane_Windsor

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Ragnaros said:
Do you believe in ghosts?

Nope, but I do believe in demons, which I believe accounts for most "ghost" activity.

-"Playback" - this is when it seems as if events from the past are replaying themselves.

To me this is plausible, but it is not denoms, nor is it "ghosts". It seems to me like places where strong impressions were made can form the events into a memory of some kind.

-Shadow people - this can be another very frightening phenomenon . . . Most of the time, people with shadow people experiences just claim that they saw one out of the corner of their eye, but when they looked, nothing was there.

This can be easily explained. It's called our peripheral vision playing tricks on us. I saw this on a Discovery Kids show back in October, and the had an eye doctor explain this fully. There is no such thing as a shadow person. No, I take that back, I forgot about Peter Pan. Peter did chase his shadow all around Wendy's room ^_^ Shadow people do exist-in fiction.

DIANE
:wave:
 
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Ragnaros

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twosid said:
Don't you think that just once someone who saw either of these things would have their camera in focus? As most video and 35mm cameras have been capable of focusing themselves for the last 10 years or so. Wouldn't someone just by accident get a clear picture? You know why they don't? That's right! Because it's BS. Just how much money do you think just one clear photo of either would generate? "Quick Bob! take the camera out of focus!"

There have been ghosts caught on camera. Thousands upon thousands of such images. There are entire websites devoted to such images. But, there are some people who are skeptical to the point of irrationality that will find a way to explain away every one of these pictures. You may be cynical enough to think that millions of people are lying about their experience with ghosts, but I am not.

In fact, the Bible states rather clearly that the dead do not have contact with the living(Luke 16:19-31)

This verse does not state that - it states that those in Hell cannot leave hell. If an entity were to project some of its essence out of Hell into our world, that wouldn't be leaving hell. In fact, how do you think Abraham communicated with the rich man in hell in the first place? The rich man certainly did not leave hell, but he still communicated with Abraham. Could it not be the same with "ghosts"?

As for this Deut 18:11 - "one who casts spells, one who conjures up spirits, a practitioner of the occult, or a necromancer.", ghost hunting falls into none of these categories. Though you are right in that we should be careful with the paranormal. I see nothing wrong with being a passive observer to learn more about the paranormal phenomena, but actively conjuring up spirits or demonic forces by putting your faith in Satanic powers most certainly falls into the categories in that verse. I agree that I should be careful with the paranormal, but if anything, my fascination with it only leads me closer to the Lord, as it forces me to rely on God in ways that are different than everyday life. Another thing about that verse is that it SUPPORTS the notion that there are spirits. Why would God give rules about the spirit world and spirits if they didn't exist?

This can be easily explained. It's called our peripheral vision playing tricks on us. I saw this on a Discovery Kids show back in October, and the had an eye doctor explain this fully. There is no such thing as a shadow person. No, I take that back, I forgot about Peter Pan. Peter did chase his shadow all around Wendy's room ^_^ Shadow people do exist-in fiction.

You have a point about that. Most "shadow people" sightings are probably paranoid people who are experiencing this trick played on our peripheral vision. But that does certainly not debunk the many stories of people who have claimed to see these things straight on.


There is a spirit world out there, folks. I think it would be naive to think that whatever is out there doesn't influence our world at some times. Otherwsie, how did Jesus cast out demons? The demons didn't just appear out of nowhere, they came from somewhere.

Also, the disciples of Jesus apparently did not think ghosts were out of the question. When Jesus walked on the water, what did the disciples think? They thought they saw a ghost. Mark 6:49 -"[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But when they saw Him walking on the sea, they supposed that it was a ghost, and cried out"; (NAS)

There are some other verses that support the idea of ghosts, and I'll try to find some more later.
[/font]
 
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linssue55

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Ragnaros said:
Do you believe in ghosts? If so, how do you explain what they are from a theological point of view? II Corinthians 5:6-8 says that to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. But, the NET Bible version for 5:8 says "5:8 Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.", which leads me to believe that the verse may mean something different.

I believe in ghosts, as there is just simply way too much anecdotal evidence for them. I find the ghost phenomenon incredibly interesting, and plan to go "ghost hunting" (where you basically just chill at a "haunted" location with some people, waiting for something paranormal to occur) sometime to learn more about it.

As far as ghostly phenomenon goes, there are many different kinds of phenomena. If we are to explain ghostly phenoma theologically, we'll need to explain each category individually, as each category is very different. I'll list a few...

-"Playback" - this is when it seems as if events from the past are replaying themselves. Sometimes there is a full blown ghostly apparition that can be seen, but it can't be interacted with at all. Some people in Gettysburg claim to have seen Civil War soldiers marching, only to suddenly disappear. This would be an example of this category - it's like a rip in time/space or something.

-Poltergeist activity - this includes all the small and odd things that happen. From unexplained noises, to objects mysteriously disappearing or being moved by themselves (some people claim to have seen items being physically floating in the air when being moved), to lights turning on and off by themselves or doors opening and closing by themselves.

-Full blown ghost - this one is the rarest and perhaps most frightening. This is when we actually see a ghost that responds to what we say or do. Sometimes the ghosts look like normal humans, but other times there is something horribly wrong about them (like a head that moves unnaturally on the neck, or a mouth full of bloody razor sharp teeth). If any category could be explained by demons, it would probably be this one, especially considering the horrific forms many of them take that would suggest that they are not, and never were, human.

-Shadow people - this can be another very frightening phenomenon. It is similar to the category above, but the form that is taken is like shadow. Witnesses claim that the shadow people are blacker than the darkest black, almost as if the shadow people are made of pure nothingness. Sometimes witnesses report that the shadow people have eyes, but there are never any other features about them. Most people with shadow people experiences claim that they got a vibe of pure evil and pure dread when they directly looked at the shadow people, like they were looking at something that wasn't supposed to exist. Most of the time, people with shadow people experiences just claim that they saw one out of the corner of their eye, but when they looked, nothing was there. This category could also be explained by demons, easily.

In all of the categories except the first one (though the first one may be affected too, I am not sure about that though) it seems as if telling whoever or whatever it is to leave in the name of Jesus Christ actually works. It's as if these "spirits" (or whatever they are) are frightened at the name of Jesus. I think this is pretty cool, as even non believers who are ghost enthusiasts accept this fact.
Demons "are" the Ghosts.

NECROMANCY, PARANORMAL ACTIVITIES, UFOS, EXTRATERRESTRIAL BEINGS, ETC?
  1. The potential of Satan.
    1. SATAN CAN PERFORM MIRACLES: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew ( show ) great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. - Mt 24:24

      The elect will not be deceived and the deceived will not be the elect.

      For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world... - Rev 16:14

      One of the characteristics of the end times will be the proliferation of demonic miracles and deceptions.

      If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. - Deut 13:1-3
    2. SATAN CAN PRETEND TO BE GOOD: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. - 2 Cor 11:13-15

      Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils... Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. - 1 Tim 4:1-3

      Satan does not mind that we be religious as long as we do not have the Savior - the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3. SATAN CAN POSSESS HUMAN BEINGS: And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils. - Lk 8:2

      Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being number of the twelve. - Lk 22:3
  2. The purpose of Satan.
    1. SATAN SEEKS TO BLIND: But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. - 2 Cor 4:3-4
    2. SATAN SEEKS TO DECEIVE: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. - 2 Thess 2:9
    3. SATAN SEEKS TO DESTROY: Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. - 1 Per 5:8
    4. Satan promises the best, but pays the worst; he promises honor and pays with disgrace; he promises pleasure and pays with pain; he promises profit and pays with loss; he promises life and pays with death. - Thomas Brooks
  3. The possibility of Satan.
    1. ASTROLOGY: Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee ( the coming Babylonian invasion of Israel ). - Isa 47:13
    2. WITCHCRAFT: And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shall have no more soothsayers. - Mich 5:12
    3. NECROMANCY: Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am your the Lord your God. - Lev 19:31.45
 
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EchelonForm

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The only verse concerning ghosts in the Bible that I could think of is in 1 Samuel 28 Although none of the translations I looked at refer to Samuel as a ghost I think it would be accurate to say that he is a ghost in this context since he is dead and they can see him and talk to him, Sauls talks to him and the medium sees him. Also in Luke 24:39, and depending on your particular translation, Christ says "because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have." Christ doesn't just reference ghosts (or spirit) he says something about them. The disciples also believed in ghosts since they are the ones who thought Christ was a ghost in this situation and also when walked on water. Hardly the most definitve proof of ghosts' existence but considering the situation with Samuel I don't think we can write off all claims of ghosts and spirits as demons or vice versa. With this said I do think that there are a lot of crazy people who say crazy things. I think that anyone who claims to have seen a ghost or spirit or alien for that matter has the distict possibility of being a crack pot and in most situations it's probably the case.
 
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Jipsah

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Ragnaros said:
Do you believe in ghosts?
Nope.

I believe in ghosts, as there is just simply way too much anecdotal evidence for them.
Yeah, but those anecdotes are never verifiable in any significant way.

I find the ghost phenomenon incredibly interesting, and plan to go "ghost hunting" (where you basically just chill at a "haunted" location with some people, waiting for something paranormal to occur) sometime to learn more about it.
I've done that. Somehow or the other, whatever hainted place I go to, and whatever spooky goings on that happened the last time anybody went there, nothing at all happens when I show up. It could be that I'm just offensive to ghosts, or the timing was wrong and the ghosts were off that night of whatever, but I haven't see or heard or felt cat-diddly. Although the people I've been with claimed to have "felt something" or done the "did you hear that?" routine. It's difficult to say whether I'm less "sensitive" than those folks, or just have less imagination.

-"Playback" - this is when it seems as if events from the past are replaying themselves. Sometimes there is a full blown ghostly apparition that can be seen, but it can't be interacted with at all. Some people in Gettysburg claim to have seen Civil War soldiers marching, only to suddenly disappear. This would be an example of this category - it's like a rip in time/space or something.
That one would be fascinating to me if anyone could ever verify it happening. None of us really understands the nature of time, and if it were possible to "see into the past" that would be a marvelous thing, especially to a history geek like me.

The rest of 'em fall under my "I'm from Missouri" rubric.
 
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Jipsah

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twosid said:
There are no UFO's.
At the risk of seeming pointlessly pedantic I'm going to disagree. There are lots of UFOs, and people see 'em all the time. Anytime you see a flying thing and you don't know what it is, then it's by definition an Unidentified Flying Object.

The silliness starts when people begin trying to identify the UFO. To me, it's a real, real long jump from "I wonder what that was?" to "It was aliens in flying saucers!" Having seen airplanes fairly often, and having never seen a flying saucer, I'm more inclined to assume that a UFO is some kind of workaday flying machine than that it's an interstellar spacecraft.

The problem with both ghosts and flying saucers is that people want to see them, which, for a certain percentage of the population, means they will "see" them.
 
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Jipsah

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Ragnaros said:
But, there are some people who are skeptical to the point of irrationality that will find a way to explain away every one of these pictures.
You mean like pictures of "orbs"? The things the ghost aficionados say are spirits, but that in roughly 100% of cases turn out to be either lens flares or software artifacts in digital cameras. Or ghosts that are reflections in teevee screens and such-like? C'mon, let's face it, the pictures we have of "ghosts" generally aren't as good as the pictures of the Cottingley Fairies.

You may be cynical enough to think that millions of people are lying about their experience with ghosts, but I am not.
I don't have to believe that people are lying to find their testimony untrustworthy. Nothing's more unreliable than an eyewitness; just ask any cop.
 
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Jebediah

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I'm afraid I have to agree with the overall tone, here. The metaphysic presented by the Bible is a tad obscure about whether we go on to afterlife at death or we wait "asleep" in our grave till judgement day, but it is also very clear there are no other options...we don't get to hang around and somehow "get out of the system".

Of course, from the dead person's point of view, complete unconciousness in grave till the apocalypse and immediate judgement would appear identical, so we really will never know unless we get to play 20 questions with God in Heaven...which I would love, but I doubt. ^_^
 
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My friend asked me this a few weeks ago. I think that all suspeted ghostly activity is demonic. When you are dead you are either with God or with Satan. There is not lingering.

I do believe Satan uses the stories of the dead for demons to do ghostly things. How many ghost stories do you hear of where there was not some tragic story behind it? Satan then uses their stories as ghosts to pull peoples beliefs away from God and to believe in something other than His written truths.

My husband and I have always wondered if a Christian would see ghosts assuming they were demons since we have the light of Christ inside us and darkness cannot exist where there is light. Just a thought.
 
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mnmcandiez

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I think ghosts are demons.
My house has been "haunted" by one for years. My sister and I are the ones that mostly experience things but other people in my family has experienced it too. When I had friends over theyve seen things and this is without me telling them things, so I think it is real. Ive cast it out and sometimes it stays gone for months or days.
I do get a very evil feeling from it though, reallly spooked out feeling.
 
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