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The Evolution Controversy: On the Links That Are Missing (discussion)

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by StevenMerten, Feb 16, 2019.

  1. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Hello Beloved2018 and others.
    Out of concern for other OP's feelings, I opened a new thread on evolution for scientific discussion of the issue.

    Obviously, the universe not existing without conscious man, (Adam), observing it, is going to cause evolution to have never actually, physically happened. So before we go down the dead end street of evolution, we have to build a foundation, from scientific proof, of how the reality of the universe is actually more like a television, with God holding the remote. At the subatomic level, all subatomic particles do not materialize into a physical particle state, until conscious man (Adam) looks at them. Subatomic Particles are like DNA, they carry infinite possibilities of what the universes past could be. Only one past is selected, when Adam first observes the universe. Of course we are talking about pasts which do not ever exist without conscious man (Adam kind), to observe them.

    The Strange Link
    between the Human Mind and Quantum Physics
    by Philip Ball, 16 February 2017​

    "(John) Wheeler even entertained the thought that the presence of living beings, which are capable of "noticing", has transformed what was previously a multitude of possible quantum pasts into one concrete history. In this sense, Wheeler said, we become participants in the evolution of the Universe since its very beginning. In his words, we live in a "participatory universe."
    The strange link between the human mind and quantum physics

    I have two threads over in CF Theistic Evolution Forum. I think you would enjoy them.


    Are you familiar with, Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia in Fatima 1917? 60,000 people in Fatima, Portugal, experienced one reality of where the sun was, while everyone else on earth experienced another reality of where the sun was. Jesus turning water into wine, and all miracles, are built into Creation's DNA. Atheist scientists hate this fact and came up with their 'Realism' philosophy, to counter the scientific fact that subatomic particles, are not particles, but only a wave of possibilities, until conscious man (Adam), looks at them. It is only when man looks at Creation, that particles become particles to form all physical things in the universe. Atheist science knows this, atheist science hates this, and atheist science has buried this proven fact,with their 'Realism' philosophy.

    It is all miracles from God at the Quantum level (subatomic particles). Subatomic particles are not particles, but, instead, a miracle from God, wave of all possibilities, until man looks at them, which then they become particles making up everything in the universe. God can even have subatomic particles producing dual realities at the same time, as was the case in Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia

    God says that Adam was already Created, before animals and woman were created. God saw that man needed a help mate. God created animals. God thought man needed an even better help mate; so God created woman. Is there anyone here who thinks that God is not Powerful enough to bring animals, woman and man into existence thousands of years ago, on the week Adam was made?

    Creation thousands of years ago, on the week Adam was made; God altering an original five days of past, to a new past with animals in it, really becomes a great deal easier to understand, once one understands quantum mechanics. Our reality, of all that exists, is more like a Television, with God holding the remote. Subatomic particles really did not evolve to know when man is looking at them and thus change their course. Every subatomic particle in the universe, is controlled by God, every nanosecond of the day. God can show us anything He wants to show you. God can change our reality of the universe, to a new reality of the universe, in a blink of an eye. God's capability to do this is written right into the DNA of the universe, at the quantum level.

    Albert Einstein hated God having all this control over our reality of the universe.

    Creationism = Quantum Mechanics = Neils Bohr VS. Albert Einstein = Realism = Atheism



    The Evolution Controversy: On the Links That Are Missing
     
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  2. Michie

    Michie Perch Perkins. Catholic reporter. ;) Supporter

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    Discussion of the op is fully allowed in the thread I started. Self promotion and repeatedly posting cut and pastes from your website and threads in other areas of CF that have nothing to do with the op I posted and the point therein is not. What you've done here is full on rude. And I do not appreciate it. It's all about what you think what you want regardless of the content of the op. I've repeatedly tried to be nice to you and ask politely to no avail. Now you are taking a topic I posted and using it as a springboard to discuss your views. Not the content of the op I posted.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
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  3. Messerve

    Messerve Active Member

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    So then, it wouldn't really be evolution at all... It would just be God allowing us to see something that He wishes us to see or that He continued "creating" after the seventh day but in more subtle ways.

    I've often thought similar thoughts. For example these ancient civilizations we continue to uncover. Were those things really just under our feet for thousands of years and not a single person found any artifact all that time? Or was it that God "created" those things for people to discover because it has a specific purpose in his ultimate storyline?

    I feel like this could easily delve into the conspiracy theorist kind of talk, but with a clear head and holistic outlook it would certainly be in the same category as the miracles Jesus did.

    Consider Lazarus being raised form the dead. Lazarus didn't walk to the mouth of the tomb because he was still bound. He was just... there. Like God clicked a button and there he was. I don't really know what Quantum Physics is and how it works, but I figure it's something like twisting scientific rules in a way that doesn't defy logic or science but seems to make the "impossible" possible.
     
  4. Messerve

    Messerve Active Member

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    Sorry I wasn't aware of the self-promotion aspects of this post...
     
  5. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Hello Messerve,
    At the quantum level, God has it set up that the universe and mankind's consciousness, are linked together; you cannot have one without the other. Subatomic particles do not materialize into physical state, bearing a past history, until conscious man, Adam, observes them.

    So before we can talk about the past that materializes into existence, when Adam first opens his eyes to observe the universe, we must realize, due to proven science, that this past never existed, without Adam to observe it. This is unless God willed it so for five days before Adam was Created.

    The way Quantum Mechanics actually works, needs to be understood before we can talk about 'evolution'. Albert Einstein did not like the world of quantum mechanics, and the reality that God is in complete control, every nanosecond of the day, of what we experience as reality. Albert Einstein wanted, instead, a universe that could be set in motion 13.8 billion years ago, and left to evolve on its own, which is contrary to proven science. Thus the 'Realism' theosophy was established to counter the way quantum mechanics really works. People flock to the atheist philosophy that God is not needed every nanosecond of the day to keep the universe running.

    Do you understand how one must first understand just how God runs the universe, before we talk about atheist 'evolution?

    I promote God and His Omnipotent Power to Create all that exists, thousands of years ago, on the week Adam was Made. I am not 'self promoting' as I have been accused of. I am promoting scientific proof of how God Created man and all that exists. I am not promoting myself.


    Neils Bohr
    "It is meaningless to assign Reality to the universe in the absence of observation; in the intervals between measurement, quantum systems truly exist as a fuzzy mixture of all possible properties (science labels this, 'a superposition of states')."

    Verses
    Albert Einstein insisted on an objective reality
    A reality independent of our observation of it.

    Albert Einstein
    "I would like to think the moon was there even when I wasn't looking at it!"


    Albert Einstein (Determinism) says,
    "God does not throw dice!"

    Neils Bohr (Chance) replies,
    "Nor is it our business to prescribe to God how He should run the world."

    Scientific proof still stands, that we live in a 'Peek a Boo' universe which means a universe which only exists when a conscious observer, meaning man (Adam) is looking at it. Even after 100 years of atheist scientists desperately trying to prove, this scientifically proven science, wrong.


     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  6. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    The Strange Link

    between the Human Mind and Quantum Physics


    by Philip Ball, 16 February 2017​


    "(John) Wheeler even entertained the thought that the presence of living beings, which are capable of "noticing", has transformed what was previously a multitude of possible quantum pasts into one concrete history. In this sense, Wheeler said, we become participants in the evolution of the Universe since its very beginning. In his words, we live in a "participatory universe."

    The strange link between the human mind and quantum physics


    Sometimes I think Christianity gives God far less, or even no leeway to work, while worldly science seem to have opened the door up wide, for God and Adam to select from a multitude of possible quantum pasts. Science allows for man to participate in the creation of the universe, "we become participants in the evolution of the Universe since its very beginning". Christianity, on the other hand, well I am having a hard sell to convince my fellow Christians that, why not let Adam and God redecorate the place (All of Creation), as a team. God wanted a relationship with man. Well a big part of relationships is learning how to work together. Why not have Adam move in, and then God and man (Adam), can tweak the place to everyone's comfort level.

    'Hum, Man seems to be lonely. I will create animals out of the ground for Adam, says God. Hum. None of the animals seem to be a suited helper for man, says God. I will make woman as a gift for man, says God. Man does dearly like the husband and wife relationship, and the family that comes with it, he received as a gift from God, after man was already Created and living on earth.

    God and Adam working things out, as a family, to make Creation a better fit, is a very sentimental part of the Creation story. If God wants to throw some miracles around, even miracles altering the past of Creation, and give man some gifts, I think this is a very wonderful and loving thing for God to do for man. I see it as a more perfect, relationship orientated, Creation, in God doing it this way; over the atheist scientists who demand a 13.8 billion year past, they demand upon Creation, to make their 'evolution', fit, and also their, 'Who needs God!' atheist creation, work.

    Proven science, at the subatomic, Quantum Theory, level, on the other hand, shows the building blocks of the universe, electrons, protons, neutrons and photons, as only materializing into physical form when man looks at them, to build complex structures in the universe. Subatomic particles have the ability to know the future, as to whether or not a conscious observer is going to look at them, and thus select between being a physical particle, making up the universe, of a non-physical particle, in a state of all possibilities, of what it will show man, even into the past of physical existence. Physicists like John Wheeler, see this ability of subatomic particles to know the future, and thus alter their past, as conscious observers, Adam kind, being participants in Creation from the Big Bang.

    There were no animals or woman when Adam first observed the universe, and thus the universe locked into the past with no animals or woman. God made Adam into an 'unconscious observer' again, and altered a new reality, out of all the particle/wave subatomic particles of the universe. When Adam was restored to become a 'conscious observer' again, all the sub atomic particles in the universe, that Adam observed, now had a reality, with a new past reality, with animals and woman, in it.

    The new reality overwrote the old reality past. Of course all realities of pasts never really existed in physical form, because to exist back then, they would have needed a conscious observer, like Adam, to have been there to observe them. So, the original past reality, with no animals in it, only exists for the five days before Adam observation of the universe, if God says it did, in His first five days of Creation. Our new reality, with animals and Eve in it, is simply Adam Kind's, past of present reality, that subatomic particles have locked in, when Adam regained his position as conscious observer, the second time.

    What subatomic particles show conscious observers, Adam Kind, is totally up to God, Who controls every subatomic particle in the universe, every nanosecond of the day.

    Genesis 2:18
    The LORD God said: It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suited to him. So the LORD God formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call them; whatever the man called each living creature was then its name. The man gave names to all the tame animals, all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals; but none proved to be a helper suited to the man. So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.

    The LORD God then built the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman. When he brought her to the man, the man said:

    “This one, at last, is bone of my bones

    and flesh of my flesh;

    This one shall be called ‘woman,’

    for out of man this one has been taken.”
     
  7. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Evolution has evolved to become artificially intuitive, and not based on scientific evidence, in fact, evolution is in opposition to scientific evidence that there is no universe without a conscious observer. God made our reality so real that even scientific proof, at the quantum (subatomic particle) level, which proves opposite, is rejected by science, and people in general, for the artificial ‘intuitive’ preference of thinking. Atheist scientists say, ‘I see the proof in quantum theory, that there is no universe without a conscious observer, but when I go outside and look at the stars, moon and sun, I simply believe it has always existed,’ science, which we teach in colleges and elementary schools will be forced to go with this concept, instead of scientific proof. Thus the ‘Realism’ philosophy of atheist scientists has been implanted in society, in opposition to proven scientific evidence.

    Even believing in evolution intuitively is actually incorrect. Babies, still bearing their natural instincts, intuitively understand that the universe does not exist when they are not looking at it. When you put a piece of food in front of a baby they intuitively understand it is a piece of food and reach for it. If you cover the piece of food with a cup, the baby intuitively understands that the piece of food now does not exist. This point is made in the PBS video. Even man’s natural born instinct tells us there is no universe without a conscious observer, along with proven science and, God’s Word plus five previous days.

    Intuitive (Webster)

    The related noun intuition, meanwhile, describes a feeling of knowing or understanding something without evident rational thought and inference. A parent's intuition might tell him or her that a child is in danger, even if there is no logical reason to believe so.


    adjective

    using or based on what one feels to be true even without conscious reasoning; instinctive.
    "I had an intuitive conviction that there was something unsound in him"

    instinctive, intuitional, instinctual

    God was not out twiddling His thumbs for 13.8 billion years, waiting for His relationship with man to begin. We can feel this in God’s love for mankind, spread throughout the bible.

    Scientist love to discuss all the possible, even far out, imaginary theories of their contemporaries. Great! We Christians will just have our God’s Creation in six days, thousands of years ago, on the week Adam was made, which scientific proof, human intuition, and the Bible indicate, Right? If you want to see the wrath of atheist scientists come down upon your head, simply ask them to accept Christian Creationism as an acceptable scientific possibility. Atheist scientists hate Creationism and will do all in their power to condemn it as a scientifically unacceptable abomination. Why is this? DENIAL!

    Has anyone watched the PBS video? What do you think of proven scientific evidence that the universe does not exist without a conscious observer, (Adam), to look at it?



     
  8. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    The beauty of Creationism in six days, thousands of years ago, on the week Adam was made, is that it glorifies God to believe it. Proven science, along with born intuition, are on Creationists side, yet Creationists still suffer persecution, from an atheist world, for believing in God. What a gift of faith to God it is to believe in Creationism.

    Proven science tells us there is no universe without a conscious observer, Adam and his descendants, to look at, and experience, it. God has the very existence of all that exists, directly tied to Adam, and his descendants’, conscious reality. This makes God working miracles the norm in all of existence. God simply switches to a different reality, as is the case in adding animals and woman, after the creation of man, and we see this, switch in conscious reality, God made on earth, as a miracle from God on earth; A very welcome gift of love from our Creator. Life itself is a miraculous gift from God along with the universe. We thank God for all His abundant miraculous gifts on earth!

    Glory be to God our Creator!
     
  9. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    'I'm not afraid': What Stephen Hawking said about God,
    his atheism and his own death

    Before we understand science, it is natural to believe that God created the universe. But now science offers a more convincing explanation. What I meant by ‘we would know the mind of God’ is, we would know everything that God would know, if there were a God, which there isn’t. I’m an atheist.”
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...n-death/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f0e1a1917c09
    Hardened atheist Stephen Hawking mocks God, and believing in God, as foolish, 'Once we understand science'. He considers his great scientific knowledge to be god-like. Hawking is deceiving a great many educated people away from God, with his deception and lies.

    Neils Bohr
    "It is meaningless to assign Reality to the universe in the absence of observation; in the intervals between measurement, quantum systems truly exist as a fuzzy mixture of all possible properties."​

    Science knows that the existence of the universe is directly tied to whether or not a conscious observer, mankind (Adam), is looking at it and experiencing it. Science fears this tremendously because their whole 13.8 billion years of past, along with evolution, is riding on people not understanding that God has man's consciousness directly linked to whether or not the universe exists.

    As silly as you might think people believing in a flat earth sounds, atheist scientists who push the 13.8 billion years from Creation, are just as silly. Physical time is not flat. Physical time is a variable which fluctuates depending on gravity and velocity. Physical time even stops at the speed of light or intense gravity. To see just how foolish Stephen Hawking's lies and deception are, please visit my thread:

     
  10. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    What??????

    Before we can even go on to the rest of your post, we have to look at your opening remark. Are you saying that the universe cannot exist unless a man consciously observes it? Ridiculous! I hope I have misunderstood you.
     
  11. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    We do not need every skeleton of every life form that has ever existed in order to prove evolution. We only need a preponderance of the evidence. Let me offer just two of a great many cases where we have just that.

    1. We have a direct line of transitional forms following a fourfooted land mammal with a unique ear formation known only to whales and dolphins, and down through time to their modern form today.

    2. We also have an ample line of fossils going from primates predating the chimp-human split, up through the Australopithecines, through Homo-Habilus (ape or man?) through all the progressively more sophisticated genus homo species.

    In both of these cases, there is more than enough transitional forms to document the slow evolution from earlier species to new species. So, if there is no transitional form available in some other case, it doesn't matter -- evolution is already proven.
     
  12. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Hello Open Heart,
    Did you watch the PBS video link below? Do you understand what they mean by a 'Peek a Boo' universe? They mean the universe does not exist without a conscious observer, man, starting with Adam, to observe it.

    Subatomic particles do not materialize into physical particle state, unless man is looking at them. Without man looking at subatomic particles, they only exist in a non-particle wave of all possibilities. I call this non-particle wave state, the miracle from God state. Until man actually observes and experiences the universe, there is no universe.


    Neils Bohr
    "It is meaningless to assign Reality to the universe in the absence of observation; in the intervals between measurement, quantum systems truly exist as a fuzzy mixture of all possible properties."​
     
  13. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    At the risk of oversimplifying a Quantum Universe....

    No, I didn't watch the video. I am familiar with Shrodinger's cat and how many things exist as possibilities until observed.

    That is NOT the same thing as saying there is no universe unless someone is there to observe it.

    Non-human creatures, btw, would qualify as observers.

    It is safe to say that the Universe isn't really the universe as we perceive it. We are learning more and more. It's interesting stuff. But the way you are wording things makes the very existence of the universe dependent on our observation, and that is just NOT what quantum theory purports. You have a gross misunderstanding.

    I'd give up trying to use Quantum Mechanics to disprove evolution. Unless you have quite a high IQ, I'm fairly sure you won't understand it to begin with. I have a really great IQ and *I* have problems with Quantum Mechanics.

    Go back to the basics with evolution.
    1. Does the gene frequency of a species change over time to better suit it to its environment?
    2. Has the world existed long enough for those changes to accrue into enough total changes that we would have to say that news species have come into being?
    3. Do we find evidence of this in the fossil records?
    4. Have we observed new species coming into existences during scientific history?
    5. What is the difference, really, between the science of Genetics, and evolution?

    I would spend special time studying the line of evolution of whales, and of humans (especially the species Homo Habilus).
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  14. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Hello Open Heart,
    Well I wish you would have watched the video so that we could talk about what the expert physicists say about a 'Peek a Boo' universe, meaning a universe which does not exist without a conscious observer to look at it. Some readers may be interested to hear your views on how high your IQ is, but I would rather discuss what expert physicists have to say about the reality in which we live.

    Neils Bohr is considered to be the father of Quantum Theory. Neils Bohr is also the physicist who came up with the electron rings around the atom, giving us empty space in atoms. Neils Bohr disagees with you. Neils Bohr tells us, "It is meaningless to assign Reality to the universe in the absence of observation". The PBS video discusses Niels Bohr verses 'Realism'. 'Realism' is the scientific philosophy, stating that if you do not like what you see in quantum mechanics (subatomic particles), then step outside, look at the stars and moon, and state, 'I am just going to say that this has all always existed, regardless of what I see going on at the subatomic particle level'. The latter dominates world views, scientific and non-scientific, today.

    So how do you explain, father of Quantum Theory, Neils Bohr's definition on reality?

    Neils Bohr
    "It is meaningless to assign Reality to the universe in the absence of observation; in the intervals between measurement, quantum systems truly exist as a fuzzy mixture of all possible properties."​
     
  15. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    It is obvious to me that this quote by Neils Bohr is NOT saying that the universe doesn't exist unless observed by men.
     
  16. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Neils Bohr
    "It is meaningless to assign Reality to the universe in the absence of observation; in the intervals between measurement, quantum systems truly exist as a fuzzy mixture of all possible properties."​

    Hello All,
    Science has observed God's miracles at the subatomic level. When man is looking at subatomic particles, it is only then that subatomic particles are in the physical form of a particle. When man is not looking at subatomic particles, then subatomic particles are not in the form of a physical particle, but a wave of all possibilities of where the particle could be. Subatomic particles are the building blocks of the entire universe. When subatomic particles are in the form of particles, they construct into the massive formation of planets, rocks, trees, and all that we see and experience in the universe. When subatomic particles are in the, non-physical particle, wave of all possibilities of where they could be and what they could look like, and there are no subatomic particles making up the universe. Subatomic particles only switch to physical particle form when a conscious observer is looking at them or experiencing them.

    Does everyone understand why, father of Quantum Theory, Neils Bohr, says "It is meaningless to assign Reality to the universe in the absence of observation"
     
  17. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    1. Because in addition to being a scientist, he was a philosopher. His philosophy is not empirical -- you can take it or leave it. Virtually all philosophers disagree. It is unwarranted to appeal to authority when authorities disagree.
    2. He is one of a great many scientists who contributed to Quantum theory. His position is not held by the others. It is unwarranted to appeal to authority when authorities disagree.
     
  18. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Hello Open Heart,
    It is actually the atheist scientists, who developed the 'Realism' philosophy, to lead people away from proven science, that Neils Bohr stood for. The atheist scientists wanted a universe which was put in motion 13.8 billion years ago to promote their 'Creation does not need God' evil hatred for God. Realism is where scentists abandon proven science at the subatomic level, and just walk outside look at the stars and moon, and say, 'I would like to think the moon was there even when I wasn't looking at it'.

    Do you agree that proven science tells us that subatomic particles are in a non-physical, wave of all possibilities, until man looks at them? Do you agree that man looking at a subatomic particle, changes the past travel of an electron? How did an electron evolve to know when man is looking at it, or going to look at it in the future? It is God controlling subatomic particles, of course. Atheist scientists hate this! Thus atheist scientists came up with their denial, 'Realism' philosophy.

     
  19. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Actually plenty of theists, myself included and many, many Christians, accept that the universe is 13.8 billion years old, and that there is no conflict whatsoever with this and the existence of God, and that in fact the very nature of the Big Bang rather supports the idea of God.

    First, I do not truly understand the nature of the quantum universe, nor do I think anyone truly does, even physicists. For one thing, it is not as we perceive. For another thing, our understanding is limited.

    Certainly I accept the idea of quantum theory that what actually exists are waves. What we experience as matter is simply concentrations on these waves. I'm sure I'm absolutely butchering it.

    I don't think it's that something "is" a particle or wave depending on whether we observe it. I think it is whether we PERCEIVE it as a particle or a wave. Our perception doesn't change its nature, nor its effects. Thus the reality of these things exists independent of our observation and perception. If I'm mistaken in this, anyone who is a physicist please step in an correct me. If you aren't a physicist, you are no better than I am.

    And by the way, that observation doesn't have to be by a human being. It could be by any sentient being that you give access to the proper tools.
     
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