The Evangelical Reckoning Begins: Andy Stanley

[Tinker Grey]

The Evangelical Reckoning Begins

When Stanley decided to cancel in-person worship until at least early 2021, dozens of families were so unhappy that they decided to quit his church. “Never once did I hear, ‘We’re upset because we miss coming to church,’” he told me, leaning back in a heather-gray wingback chair. The vibe of his church offices is tasteful and inoffensive, as if his decorator was trying to channel that magic Fixer Upper quality of looking distinctive while appealing to almost everyone. “What I heard was, ‘We’re upset because you bought into a political agenda. We’re upset because you believe the Democrats’ narrative.’”

 

[mkgal1]

From the article (about Trump's faith advisors):

They just make stuff up,” Stanley said. “This isn’t the New Testament. This isn’t Christianity. This is just positive thinking.”

......I think Stanley has his theology and his devotion correct. Thanks for sharing the article.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Clearly the quitters mistook his church for a PAC -- no wonder they were upset.

 

[FireDragon76]

Christianity in general in the US has been corrupted by politicization, so it's not surprising.

 

[mkgal1]

@jayem just shared these articles as well:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/people/michael-gerson

.....definitely there's going to be a choosing of "sides" in this division that's happening.

 

[mindlight]

The Evangelical Reckoning Begins

Evangelicalism is a global phenomena, not just an American one. The elect can be deceived, as can all humans, by a powerful man, who knows how to pull their strings. Measured against eternity this is just a learning experience, for those Christians who were deceived, it is far more serious for the unsaved. Some of us were not deceived at all. In fact most of us, globally, were not deceived by Trump and always saw him for what he was - at best a useful tool of the church and at worst a man unfit for the office of president of the USA. Now it is a moot point as the American people have spoken and Trump is removed, as of January 20th.

It might have worked out for Trump had it not been for covid19, which exposed his preference for money over lives, and lies, that serve him, over truth. In the meantime he did some good things, which the church have benefited from.

But I think you are wrong if you think this is an Evangelical reckoning only. This is a challenge to a distinctive mode of being American in the modern age. The combo of "God", guns and greed that has characterised American society is being challenged by a Pandemic that cuts across all of these cultural categories, making people rethink how churches should work when Sunday churchianity is removed, questioning the valuation of firearms in the age of tanks, hypersonic missiles and drones as a guarantor of freedom, and looking with some dismay at those who value money over life.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The Evangelical Reckoning Begins

The problem, as many see it, is that church attendance isn't a suggestion, it's a Biblical mandate.

Are there times we can't attend church due to illness etc? Of course, but the goal is always to get back to attendance as soon as possible... because its a mandate.

When it becomes a choice between what man wants, and what God wants, we are again mandated to put God first.

Shutting a church down for a couple weeks is a far different proposition to a few months - the few months being something most people have already done in America.

At this point, it truly is a choice between following God and following government, and some people are more than ready to choose God.

It's beyond politics now... it's making people choose between God and government... your going to have groups willing to follow government, and others - albeit a smaller number - will choose God.

 

[FireDragon76]

The problem, as many see it, is that church attendance isn't a suggestion, it's a Biblical mandate.

Are there times we can't attend church due to illness etc? Of course, but the goal is always to get back to attendance as soon as possible... because its a mandate.

When it becomes a choice between what man wants, and what God wants, we are again mandated to put God first.

Shutting a church down for a couple weeks is a far different proposition to a few months - the few months being something most people have already done in America.

At this point, it truly is a choice between following God and following government, and some people are more than ready to choose God.

It's beyond politics now... it's making people choose between God and government... your going to have groups willing to follow government, and others - albeit a smaller number - will choose God.

Most religious organizations have been keen on protecting their members and don't see limiting service attendance as an unreasonable burden. So stop portraying this as some kind of attack on religious freedom, it simply is not.

 

[mindlight]

The problem, as many see it, is that church attendance isn't a suggestion, it's a Biblical mandate.

Are there times we can't attend church due to illness etc? Of course, but the goal is always to get back to attendance as soon as possible... because its a mandate.

When it becomes a choice between what man wants, and what God wants, we are again mandated to put God first.

Shutting a church down for a couple weeks is a far different proposition to a few months - the few months being something most people have already done in America.

At this point, it truly is a choice between following God and following government, and some people are more than ready to choose God.

It's beyond politics now... it's making people choose between God and government... your going to have groups willing to follow government, and others - albeit a smaller number - will choose God.

We still meet with masks, social distancing and no singing, windows open, vulnerable join us over zoom or listen to sermon podcast after. It is testing God to be careless with lives. God does protect us but not always when we are stupid.

Private bible study and prayer should be thriving in this pandemic.

The pastor in the article cannot guarantee his congregation will obey basic pandemic rules whereas our pastor can

 

[Hazelelponi]

The pastor in the article cannot guarantee his congregation will obey basic pandemic rules

Yeah but why can't he? That's what doesn't make sense...

Georgia doesn't have any new restrictions in place, from what I'm seeing. So this pastor shouldn't be having any issues whatever. Just basic stuff they would have been practicing until now.

And with just basics in place, to close a church until after the first of the year is extreme, to put it mildly.

 

[FireDragon76]

We still meet with masks, social distancing and no singing, windows open, vulnerable join us over zoom or listen to sermon podcast after. It is testing God to be careless with lives. God does protect us but not always when we are stupid.

Private bible study and prayer should be thriving in this pandemic.

The pastor in the article cannot guarantee his congregation will obey basic pandemic rules whereas our pastor can

COVID-19 has been a kick in the pants to alot of religious organizations to get online, which means potentially more exposure to new audiences.

In the past months I have been able to watch all sorts of different religious services online. A Konko church in Osaka, a Buddhist temple in Denver, etc.

 

[mindlight]

Yeah but why can't he? That's what doesn't make sense...

Georgia doesn't have any new restrictions in place, from what I'm seeing. So this pastor shouldn't be having any issues whatever. Just basic stuff they would have been practicing until now.

And with just basics in place, to close a church until after the first of the year is extreme, to put it mildly.

I live in Germany, but my family live in UK. The Germans are quite disciplined when it comes to sensible rules as a whole. The British are more individualist, like the Americans, and there are a lot of people, including one of my brothers, openly flouting the rules. Which explains why the British have the highest death rate in Europe and the Germans the lowest. You really cannot talk to these people, they simply do not get it. They make it dangerous for everyone else, and so they wreck the whole possibility of meeting at all. But this really is a case by case thing. Maybe this pastor is being too extreme about this, or just wanted a holiday, I do not know, but I think it more likely that this would be a legitimate response in the current situation in the USA where wearing, or not wearing a mask, is a political statement, rather than a basic health and safety requirement.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I live in Germany, but my family live in UK. The Germans are quite disciplined when it comes to sensible rules as a whole. The British are more individualist, like the Americans, and there are a lot of people, including one of my brothers, openly flouting the rules. Which explains why the British have the highest death rate in Europe and the Germans the lowest. You really cannot talk to these people, they simply do not get it. They make it dangerous for everyone else, and so they wreck the whole possibility of meeting at all. But this really is a case by case thing. Maybe this pastor is being too extreme about this, or just wanted a holiday, I do not know, but I think it more likely that this would be a legitimate response in the current situation in the USA where wearing, or not wearing a mask, is a political statement, rather than a basic health and safety requirement.

In churches if the elders etc agree on rules (like social distancing etc.) All they have to do is make sure to allow, say, 1/3 capacity, and hand out masks at the door and tell parishioners to seat themselves away from others.. moving people if need be after they are seated. Then just hold more service options at large churches so anyone who wants to attend can.

To close down a church the elders and deacons have to be in majority agreement, so the same agreement could apply to other attendance rules just the same.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Yeah but why can't he? That's what doesn't make sense...

It makes sense if his congregation have chosen to follow someone's advice besides his.

From the OP: “Never once did I hear, ‘We’re upset because we miss coming to church,’” he told me, leaning back in a heather-gray wingback chair. The vibe of his church offices is tasteful and inoffensive, as if his decorator was trying to channel that magic Fixer Upper quality of looking distinctive while appealing to almost everyone. “What I heard was, ‘We’re upset because you bought into a political agenda. We’re upset because you believe the Democrats’ narrative.’”

Georgia doesn't have any new restrictions in place, from what I'm seeing. So this pastor shouldn't be having any issues whatever. Just basic stuff they would have been practicing until now.

Basic stuff they should have been practicing until now.

And with just basics in place, to close a church until after the first of the year is extreme, to put it mildly.

According to the OP, the decision to close down was the Pastor's, not the state's. It is the responsibility of the shepherd to protect his flock -- sometimes that means protecting them from themselves.

 

[mindlight]

COVID-19 has been a kick in the pants to alot of religious organizations to get online, which means potentially more exposure to new audiences.

In the past months I have been able to watch all sorts of different religious services online. A Konko church in Osaka, a Buddhist temple in Denver, etc.

Yes I would say our numbers are up overall. But we have also lost some people who were regulars before and are not that clued into the new technologies. Looking forward to when this over. Also it is an easier commitment to listen to a podcast once a week, possibly while cleaning or whatever, rather than going to a church service. We are missing the quality of fellowship we had before over coffee after church for instance.

 

[Bobber]

Most religious organizations have been keen on protecting their members and don't see limiting service attendance as an unreasonable burden. So stop portraying this as some kind of attack on religious freedom, it simply is not.

So why are Strip clubs allowed to open and churches cannot in California?

Churches Still Closed While Strip Clubs Reopen In California

 

[TLK Valentine]

So why are Strip clubs allowed to open and churches cannot in California?

Churches Still Closed While Strip Clubs Reopen In California

Because the strippers are enforcing social distancing better than the pastors...?

 

[mkgal1]

It's beyond politics now... it's making people choose between God and government... your going to have groups willing to follow government, and others - albeit a smaller number - will choose God.

But isn't that a false dichotomy? God never mandated for the New Testament church to meet weekly in buildings. We can avoid "forsaking the assembly" by meeting online.

 

[Tinker Grey]

We can avoid "forsaking the assembly" by meeting online.

Exactly.

 

[mkgal1]

Yeah but why can't he? That's what doesn't make sense...

Georgia doesn't have any new restrictions in place, from what I'm seeing. So this pastor shouldn't be having any issues whatever. Just basic stuff they would have been practicing until now.

And with just basics in place, to close a church until after the first of the year is extreme, to put it mildly.

Stanley's congregations are second in size to Joel Osteen's. It's the same as (in numbers and building set up) attending a concert or indoor sporting event (both of which aren't occurring anywhere in the US that I'm aware of). It's impossible to social distance in an atmosphere like that.

You can get a glimpse of one of the campus churches in this video: