The Erroneous Christian Belliefs of Heaven and Hell

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shturt678

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Great posts ... enjoying ... The soul, animates the body (immaterial part) giving it life. We can kind of take this to the eternal bank, correct?

Like the former posts, the "soul" is either in the body, or immediately in "hell" awaiting the lake of fire OR in heaven awaiting the new heaven and new earth. Just another opinion
 
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delaola

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there is no such thing as souls sleep and if we do not go to be with the Lord after we die then why did Paul state what he stated...


2 Corinthians 5:8...
8 [Yes] we have confident and hopeful courage and are pleased rather to be away from home out of the body and be at home with the Lord.
This verse is taken out of context as Paul wasn't even speaking about death. He was talking about living in the body or flesh or sinful nature compared to living in Christ's perfect, sinless, righteous body.
Philippians 1:16-26 (New King James Version)
16 The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; 17 but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice. 19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.
Again, out of context. Paul, here, is talking about, again, living in the flesh/sinful nature and how his heart leads him to be sinful, but he knows that living in Christ is more productive, if not for himself, then for the ones he preaching to.
 
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shturt678

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I kind of view IICor.5:8 as follows with no soul sleep either .. v.8 If we trust that our bank account in heaven has a million dollars that were deposited for us by Christ; he has, indeed, deposited them for us, they will be handed out to us, we shall get sight of every penny of them, shall have them in our hands forever. Certainly, then, we are of good courage as we go on here in the body, walking by faith.

The present existence in the body is like being at home (v.6) but like living in a tent (v.1, 4), in only a temporary home. What makes it temporary is the fact that we can now live only by faith, faith that still has to wait for sight of him in whom it trusts.

Paul here, contextually, is speaking about death: "out of the body." he has been speaking about nothing else throughout, (5:1, etc.). Just like the former posts, the same thought in Phil.1:21-23.
 
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jasonsloss

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This verse is taken out of context as Paul wasn't even speaking about death. He was talking about living in the body or flesh or sinful nature compared to living in Christ's perfect, sinless, righteous body.
Again, out of context. Paul, here, is talking about, again, living in the flesh/sinful nature and how his heart leads him to be sinful, but he knows that living in Christ is more productive, if not for himself, then for the ones he preaching to.

I have study this for years with many others and Paul is stating where we go once we leave this body...

to say that this is Paul's teaching based off of Galatians 5:16-26...
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

this does not match up so I would suggest you study this up and use the Greek to help...
 
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Konyat

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Absolutely perfect Konyat, not that i'm the teacher, just refreshing to hear words of truth this morning ... just a little help to revrobor ... Lk.16:19, etc is not a Biblical vision, but a Parable and needs to be undressed ... no correction intended, just working with u ... in fact this is a great parable as it is tied into the Parable before it, "Parable of the Unjust Steward" ... the two parables are a pair and must be undressed as such ...
My point, the rich man went to hell and is still there now and if he could, he would like to warn his brothers ... he was even in "torments" without any pain meds. for eternity in the English sense from when he was in the womb forward as no annihilation ... not a happy camper to say the least .... NO STORY HERE.

:cool: I agree
 
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Konyat

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No one is in Hell as no judgments have taken place. If it makes you feel better to think someone in in Hell that's fine but it's just not true.

The Lord said that The Rich Man was in hell.
How could you say there is no one in hell when the Lord Himself said that the The Rich Man was there?
Can you please explain this or shall I think that you are trying to twist the word.
 
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revrobor

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The Lord said that The Rich Man was in hell.
How could you say there is no one in hell when the Lord Himself said that the The Rich Man was there?
Can you please explain this or shall I think that you are trying to twist the word.

It was a story (parable) told to make a point. It was not an actual occurrence.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Scripture, while generally uninterested in what happens to us after we die, at the very least seems indicative that between death and resurrection there is some sort of conscious existence. Which, for lack of better terms, are generally referred to as "Heaven" and "Hell".

St. John's Apocalypse, while by definition cryptic and symbolic, does seem to hint at the reality that the faithful martyrs are in the presence of God right now (c.f. Revelation 7).

However this intermediate state isn't of much importance in Scripture, what's far more important in Scripture is not life after death, but life after life after death--the eternal state, the resurrection of the body, life everlasting in the Age to Come in the new heavens and the new earth.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I beg to differ Jesus gave a name which pointed to a fact... where as there was no name in the parable of the sower and the seed...

A parable can name a fictitious character and still be a parable.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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jasonsloss

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A parable can name a fictitious character and still be a parable.

-CryptoLutheran

Luke 16: 19-24...
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Jesus stated the mans name stating a fact notice Jesus did not do this elsewhere
 
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ViaCrucis

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Luke 16: 19-24...
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Jesus stated the mans name stating a fact notice Jesus did not do this elsewhere

It may be unusual, but it doesn't in and of itself prove it isn't a parable.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Konyat

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It was a story (parable) told to make a point. It was not an actual occurrence.

Right, it was told to make a point and the point is, the rich man goes to hell right after he died. Remember he still have living brothers when he died and goes to hell. So, the point that the story/parable is saying is that somebody goes to hell right after they died.
 
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delaola

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You might want to see Rev. 20:10. The truth needs to be spread but you are not spreading it. You have picked up some false teaching from the SDA church.
Wouldn't burning someone "forever and ever" seem cruel and unusual? Would you want to serve a God that forever burns some one for eternity? Also, if the beast and false prophet in Rev. 20:10 are human, wouldn't they have to wait until the ressurection to even begin punishment? Third, immortality of the soul, which is used to interpet most of Rev. as people burning forever, is a Greek, polytheistic view that has spread to Christianity and is never actually stated in the bible.
When a Believer dies today they go to Paradise (which is NOT Heaven) to await the judgments (remember the thief on the cross?).
Ok, so using the theif on the cross reference, "And Jesus said to him, 'Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.'” Using this translation, it contradicts the entire Bible. 1) Christ never went to Paradise to await judgement, why would he need judgement? 2) The thief didn't even die that day, he died the next day which is why the soldiers broke his legs, but didn't need to break Christ's, as he was already dead.
Non-believers go to Hades (not Hell) when they die to await the judgments.
Hades is not a metaphysical waiting room. All go to Hades when they die. Hades is the Greek equivalent of Sheol as seen if you translate them both in which they translate into "grave" or the state of being dead. This is backed up by Rev. 20:14 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." This speaks of Hades, or grave (or human subjection to death as we are all mortal) being completely destroyed and death and sin never again staining humanity.
 
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elman

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Luke 16: 19-24...
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Jesus stated the mans name stating a fact notice Jesus did not do this elsewhere

Which does not prove it is literally true in all its details.
 
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delaola

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Right, it was told to make a point and the point is, the rich man goes to hell right after he died. Remember he still have living brothers when he died and goes to hell. So, the point that the story/parable is saying is that somebody goes to hell right after they died.

This statement is shaky at best. First of all, the body, physical body, is in the grave. I'm sure if you dig up Abraham's corpse, it'll still be here on Earth. Second, the parable never says anything about a soul rising to Heaven or going to Hell. In fact, the word "soul" is never mentioned in the entire chapter. So if you mean to say that the physical body goes to heaven or hell after death, that can be disproved at every wake, funeral, or cremation in history. If you mean to say the soul, being immortal goes to heaven or hell, this is a belief that stems from the Greek, polytheistic religions that has no solid basis in the Scripture.
 
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revrobor

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Wouldn't burning someone "forever and ever" seem cruel and unusual? Would you want to serve a God that forever burns some one for eternity? Also, if the beast and false prophet in Rev. 20:10 are human, wouldn't they have to wait until the ressurection to even begin punishment? Third, immortality of the soul, which is used to interpet most of Rev. as people burning forever, is a Greek, polytheistic view that has spread to Christianity and is never actually stated in the bible.

Ok, so using the theif on the cross reference, "And Jesus said to him, 'Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.'” Using this translation, it contradicts the entire Bible. 1) Christ never went to Paradise to await judgement, why would he need judgement? 2) The thief didn't even die that day, he died the next day which is why the soldiers broke his legs, but didn't need to break Christ's, as he was already dead.
Hades is not a metaphysical waiting room. All go to Hades when they die. Hades is the Greek equivalent of Sheol as seen if you translate them both in which they translate into "grave" or the state of being dead. This is backed up by Rev. 20:14 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." This speaks of Hades, or grave (or human subjection to death as we are all mortal) being completely destroyed and death and sin never again staining humanity.

You, or whoever taught you, is in error. You are in for a big surprise.
 
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shturt678

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To delaola .... help me understand what i'm not seeing one passage at a time, e.g., you mentioned Rev.20:10 "the beast and the false prophet" are men? The "beast' collectively is the whole antichristian power and propaganda ... signifying the end of all this antichristianity .... hell turns into the lake of fire ... only one resurrection, i know two are taught, but "1" Jn.5:28, 29 all happen with Jesus' RETURN ... going to get warm with torment also on the inside for eternity ... would encourage all to put lots of time in Rev.20:f7-10 seeing the different views ... i only presented my opinionated view.
 
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