The epiclesis and the holy Eucharist.

coorilose

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Not quite. The priest directly intones the Epiclesis in the liturgy you linked to, after a silent prayer which is epiclectic in nature, but not the whole epiclesis. Here are the actual rubrics, using as a reference the Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles*:


Deacon: Barekhmor, How awful is this hour and how dreadful is this moment, my beloved, wherein the Holy Spirit from the topmost heights takes wing and descents and hovers and rests upon this Eucharist here present and sanctifies it. Be in calm and awe, while standing and praying. Pray that peace may be with us and for all of us tranquillity.

People: May peace be with us and tranquillity to all of us.

The Invocation of the Holy Spirit

The celebrant waves his hands over the Mysteries, and bowing down his head, says silently:
Have mercy upon us, O Lord, have mercy upon us and send from Your holy heavens Your Life-giving Spirit to hover upon this offering and make it a life-giving Body. And may He absolve and sanctify us.

The celebrant stretches out his hands and, looking upward, says aloud:
Answer me, O Lord; answer me, O Lord; answer me, O Lord; O Good One, have compassion and mercy upon me.

People: Kyrie eleison. Kyrie eleison. Kyrie eleison.

The celebrant stretches out his left hand and waves his right hand over the Body and says aloud:
So that He may, by His descent, make this bread the Body + + + of Christ our God.

People: Amen.


The celebrant waves his right hand over the chalice, saying:
And the mixture in this cup to the Blood + + + of Christ our God

People: Amen.



This entire structure I would argue counts as the liturgical unit of the Epiclesis, but the specific Epiclectic prayers that seek to accomplish the Real Change of the Gifts are said aloud, with the people responding Amen. The silent prayer said while the Deacon intones “How awful is this hour and how dreadful this moment, my beloved” is what I would call a pre-Epiclesis, in that it is essentially a prayer that the Holy Spirit will do what the Priest asks him to.

* I for one am sick of parishes only using the Anaphora of Mar Dionysius bar Salibi because its perhaps five minutes shorter in length, out of at least four anaphoras that exist in English and Arabic translation, and at least fourteen in English, especially when the rubrics require St. James to be used (the Western Archdiocese gets around that by replacing the paraphrase of the Institution Narrative and the Epiclesis in Mar Bar Salibi with those from the Liturgy of St. James). It represents a dangerous neglect of Suroye cultural and liturgical heritage, and the same thing caused the Armenian church to go from having 13 anaphorae to having one, about 700 years ago. The Syriac Orthodox Church has a particularly solemn responsibility to curate and actively use the wealth of anaphoras bestowed on it, which with an estimated total of 86, exceed those of all other ancient churches combined, except for the Maronites, who pre Vatican II had a large subset of the Syriac Orthodox anaphorae in addition to a few specific to them, such as the Anaphora of Peter (Sharar), which has been suppressed since Vatican II, leaving only around six which are rotated seasonally, but still using six anaphorae on a seasonal basis is better than using only the shortest and possibly the most recently composed anaphora.
OK. I was looking for the exact wording mentioned in the first post of the thread but couldn't find it.

Btw, here is a good translation of the SOC liturgy with a good preface and commentaries: https://www.mgocbhilai.org/admin/downloads/ServiceBookSuriyani.pdf

The epiclesis is on page 37.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Forgive me but I really dislike the Novus Ordo Missae.

And I am scandalized that Pope Francis pulled the rug out from under the Diocesan Latin Mass community fostered by his then-ailing predecessor, in an act which seems even more callous given we now know that Pope Benedict was nearing the end when Pope Francis issued Traditiones Custodes and the various follow-on bits, destroying what would have been the legacy of his predecessor and also dismantling the Congregation Ecclesia Dei whose function was to reconcile the schism with the SSPX.

If Pope Francis hadn’t done that, but had instead aggressively suppressed Medjugorje and worked to suppress the Synodal Way movement in Germany with greater force, there is an 79% chance I would have joined the RCC in the next five years.
I may be mistaken but in my locale there is a Latin Mass using the extraordinary form every Sunday. It has not been suspended or restricted.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Valletta

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I may be mistaken but in my locale there is a Latin Mass using the extraordinary form every Sunday. It has not been suspended or restricted.
As I understand, the Vatican recently clarified a previous order as requiring Bishops to get permission from the Vatican to hold a Latin mass. If there was not what the Vatican deemed as permission the Vatican is to be informed by the bishops about the Latin masses taking place. As far as I know they were not ordered to stop those Latin masses. I think it will take a while to sort things out.
 
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Jipsah

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Metaphorical/symbolic my friend ....... are we cannibals? I am the bread of life .... was Jesus a loaf of bread? When He said that .... did the apostles start chewing on him?
He said what He said. He didn't say the bread represented His body, or that the wine symbolized His blood. He made no attempt to "clarify" what He said to those who took offense and left Him nor to those who stayed with Him. If you don't want to take it literally that hardly makes you unique,but it set you apart from the majority of Christians who've ever lived who take His words at face value. God Himself said "This is my Body". That's good enough for me. I see no reason to try and figure out what He "really meant".

And that's an interesting point in itself. Almost every denomination finds occasion to look at some Scipture, realize that it clobbers some much-beloved doctrine they hold, and send them scrambling to figure out what it "really means'. I mean, God forbid that the Bible might contradict one of our favorite beliefs, right? So we work like Trojans to to come of with a "real meaning", preferable a really, really, spiritual sounding one, that neutral;izes the potentially harmful effects Holy Writ might have on what we've been taught since Sunday School.
 
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prodromos

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Metaphorical/symbolic my friend ....... are we cannibals?
No. Cannibals eat dead flesh. We receive Christ's living flesh to eat, and He suffers no harm in giving us His flesh to eat.
 
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FireDragon76

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No. Cannibals eat dead flesh. We receive Christ's living flesh to eat, and He suffers no harm in giving us His flesh to eat.

Do Orthodox reject the notion of Capernaitic eating (it sounds like yes, if Christ suffers no harm)? The Lutheran or Reformed/Anglican doctrine is that we receive the whole of Christ's person in the Lord's Supper. I believe it is the same for Catholics, as well ("body, blood, soul, and divinity" is usually how they phrase it).
 
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prodromos

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Do Orthodox reject the notion of Capernaitic eating (it sounds like yes, if Christ suffers no harm)? The Lutheran or Reformed/Anglican doctrine is that we receive the whole of Christ's person in the Lord's Supper. I believe it is the same for Catholics, as well ("body, blood, soul, and divinity" is usually how they phrase it).
We receive the whole of Christ's body, yes.
 
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FireDragon76

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It is not restricted to Catholic and Orthodox. Here's the PCUSA version


Gracious God,
pour out your Holy Spirit upon us
and upon these your gifts of bread and wine,
that the bread we break
and the cup we bless
may be the communion of the body and blood of Christ. By your Spirit make us one with Christ,
that we may be one with all who share this feast,
united in ministry in every place.
As this bread is Christ’s body for us,
send us out to be the body of Christ in the world.

The ELCA also uses an epiclesis, although from a Lutheran standpoint, its use is optional and doesn't determine the efficacy of the sacrament. The Words of Institution are sufficient.
 
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The Liturgist

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By the way, speaking of Eastern Orthodox divine liturgies, the seldom used Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, which like its Coptic translation the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril, is derived from the ancient Alexandrian liturgy we see in tne 2nd century Strasbourg Papyrus and the Euchologion of St. Serapion of Thmuis* features two Epiclesis, one before the Institution Narrative and one after, which sets the ancient Alexandrian liturgy apart from the Antiochene/Byzantine/Hagiopolitan, East Syriac, Roman and Gallican liturgies, and as I mentioned previously it is along with the East Syriac Divine Liturgy of Addai and Mari a contender for the oldest liturgy in terms of textual attestation.

Just as the use of the Divine Liturgy of St. James has increased in recent years, with the splendid new ROCOR translation from Holy Trinity in Jordanville containing both the ordinary and Presanctified forms (the latter probably derived from the now lost Syriac Orthodox presanctified liturgy, since there is reason to believe that, like the hymn Ho Monogenes, the practice of Presanctification originated with St. Severus of Antioch**, I wish there was more use of the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, especially since unlike that of St. James, the 1890 edition from the Patriarchate of Alexandria couples it with the same synaxis as used by the Divine Liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom (differing only in one respect - the prayers normally prayed quitely by the Priest during the three Antiphons or Typical Psalms are taken from older recensions of the St. Mark liturgy, differing from those found in the other liturgies using that synaxis, which also includes the very obscure Divine Liturgy of St. Peter, which takes the Roman Canon and attaches it to the Byzantine synaxis, and also due to Byzantine influence, the Armenian Apostolic Anaphora of St. Athanasius, which is a recension of the Anaphora from the Divine Liturgy of St. James.

Thus, since the only parts of the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark which differ from the liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom are in the prayers usually said quietly by the priest, this liturgy is actually ”drop-in compatible”, in that a priest could probably serve it without anyone noticing. It would be especially appropriate for the feast days of St. Mark the Evangelist, St. Peter the martyred Pope of Alexandria, his successor St. Alexander, who is a confessor, having been tortured in the Diocletian persecution, and his successor St. Athanasius the Great, and then St. Cyril the Great, who defended the Church from Nestorius just as St. Athanasius defended the church from Arius (and also translated this liturgy and other services into Coptic, which was important since we have strong reason to believe that some heretical sects were already publishing manuscripts in Coptic at that time, like the Manichaens and other Egyptian Gnostics, and St. Anthony the Great and most of the early Desert Fathers were Copts). The Divine Liturgy of St. Mark was used by all of these illustrious men of the church, just as St. John Chrysostom used the Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles, the ancient liturgy of Alexandria, which the Byzantine liturgy of his is almost identical to (just slightly more eloquent, which one would expect).

Interestigly the Syriac Orthodox Anaphora of St. John Chrysostom is unrelated, but they still have the Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles; likewise their Anaphora of St. Mark is completely different from the ancient Alexandrian one, but they have a version of it, under the name of St. Cyril due to their close relations with the Copts. The Syriac Orthodox version of the Divine Liturgy of St. James is much closer to the Byzantine version, although it lacks the hymn “Let all mortal flesh keep silent.”

One thing I love about the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox liturgies is they leave absolutely no doubt that the congregation is partaking of the actual Body and Blood of our Lord. This is accomplished in the Syriac church through the diaconal chant “how awful and dreadful is this moment when the Holy Spirit takes wings and descends upon the gifts, changing them into the body and blood of our Savior” at the opening of the Anaphora, quoted above, and in the Coptic and Byzantine Rites through a confiteor ante communionem. “i believe, O Lord, that this is truly thy precious body...” and the Coptic confiteor chanted by the celebrant:

Amen, Amen, Amen. I believe, I believe, I believe and confess to the last breath that this is the life-giving flesh that Your only-begotten Son, our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, took from our lady, the lady of us all, the holy Theotokos, Saint Mary. He made it One with His divinity without mingling, without confusion, and without alteration. He confessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate. He gave it up for us upon the holy wood of the cross, of His own will, for us all. Truly I believe that His divinity parted not from His humanity for a single moment, nor a twinkling of an eye. Given for us for salvation, remission of sins, and eternal life to those who partake of Him. I believe, I believe, I believe that this is true. Amen.

Thus we have in one confiteor a repudiation of both the error that the Eucharist is not the actual body and blood of our Lord, and the error of Nestorianism.

The Byzantine Rite also has the powerful intonation said after the Epiclesis “Thine Own of Thine Own, we offer unto Thee, on behalf of all and for all.” This is exquisite, although some churches change the wording to “Your own of your own” in a needless attempt to make the liturgy easier to understand, even while leaving the text of the Lord’s Prayer untouched from the KJV version, which does not working for me. However the Oriental Orthodox as one can tell from the translation above use simplified translations even more excessively; fortunately I do have a Coptic Euchologion with more traditional English in my library. I am curious if my dear friends @dzheremi or @Pavel Mosko have heard the Coptic liturgy in more traditional English.

The Syriac Orthodox conclude the liturgy with the beautiful metrical homily or confessional hymn Haw Nurone, by St. Jacob of Sarugh, who I regard as the Flute of the Spirit and successor to St. Ephrem the Syrian, and not his rather Nestorian rival Mar Narsai:

The Lord Whom the seraphs fear to look at,
The same you behold in bread and wine on the altar.
The lightning clothed hosts are burned if they see Him in His brilliance.
Yet the contemptible dust partakes of Him with confidence.
The Son's Mysteries are fire among the heavenly beings,
Isaiah bears witness with us to have seen them.
These Mysteries which were in the Divinity's bosom,
Are distributed to Adam's children on the altar.
The altar is fashioned like the cherubim's chariot,
And is surrounded by the heavenly hosts.
On the altar is laid the Body of God's Son,
And Adam's children carry it solemnly on their hands.
Instead of a man clad in linen, stands the (priest),
And distributes alms (the Eucharist) among the needy.
If envy existed among the angels,
The cherubim would have envied men.
Where Zion set up the Cross to crucify the Son,
There grew up the tree that gave birth to the Lamb.
Where nails were driven in the Son's hands,
There Isaac's hands were bound for an offering.
Welcome, priest, who carries the Mysteries of his Lord,
And with his right hand distributes life to men.
Welcome, priest, who carries a pure censer,
And with its fragrance makes the world sweet and pleasant.
Welcome, priest, whom the Holy Spirit did raise up,
And on his tongue bears the keys to the house of God.
Welcome, priest, who binds man in the depth below,
And the Lord binds him in heaven on high. Halleluiah.
Welcome, priest, who unbinds men on earth,
And the Lord unbinds him in the highest. Kyrie eleison.
Praise be to the Lord. His mercy upon you and absolution for me.
And good commemoration to Mor Jacob the malphono.



*This was used by Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus a few years ago - I would love to see a translation of his recension because the text in the Euchologion contains only the Bishop’s parts)

** St. Severus is a saint who ought to be on the Eastern Orthodox calendar since it is now established that historically the Oriental Orthodox were confused with the Eutychian monophysites, who were anathematized by the OO and the Chalcedonians, and the Oriental Orthodox never had a patriarch embrace iconoclasm, and we also now know that St. Isaac the Syrian was a member of the Church of the East when their theology was in some respects less orthodox than it is today, despite the attempts of some traditionalists to discredit the scholarship of Sebastian Brock and others.
 
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The Liturgist

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It is not restricted to Catholic and Orthodox. Here's the PCUSA version


Gracious God,
pour out your Holy Spirit upon us
and upon these your gifts of bread and wine,
that the bread we break
and the cup we bless
may be the communion of the body and blood of Christ. By your Spirit make us one with Christ,
that we may be one with all who share this feast,
united in ministry in every place.
As this bread is Christ’s body for us,
send us out to be the body of Christ in the world.

If I recall there are a few different Eucharistic prayers in the Book of Worship with different Anaphorae, but for the sake of brevity the latest hymnal Glory to God only features one of them, which is a common practice. The older hymnal did not feature any liturgical text at all if I recall, and the 1970s Hymnbook and Worshipbook published by the PCUSA when it was at its peak enforced a clear dichotomy between the hymns and liturgical text if memory serves (I only jave the Worshipbook in my library, and for Presbyterian hymnals I only have Glory to God, and also the Psalter used by the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America, part of the Covenanting Presbyterians, who I love, and who were horribly persecuted by the Scottish government, there being a former prison for them, now a cemetary containing their relics, in the kirkyard at Greyfriars in Edinburgh.
 
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The Liturgist

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By the way as I am sure @hedrick is aware, most of the early Reformed theologians composed their own anaphorae, including Calvin, Boucher, Zwingli, Knox, and several others. It was not until the 17th century that an opposition to liturgical prayer began, which fortunately was largely dissipated by the Mercersburg Theology movement in the US, the Scoto Catholic movement in the Church of Scotland, and a German initiative among the Continental Reformed churches.
 
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hedrick

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By the way as I am sure @hedrick is aware, most of the early Reformed theologians composed their own anaphorae, including Calvin, Boucher, Zwingli, Knox, and several others. It was not until the 17th century that an opposition to liturgical prayer began, which fortunately was largely dissipated by the Mercersburg Theology movement in the US, the Scoto Catholic movement in the Church of Scotland, and a German initiative among the Continental Reformed churches.

Current PCUSA practice is fairly recent, having been influenced by the ecumenical liturgical renewal movement in the 1960s and 70s. Most communion services I've seen follow the Great Prayer of Thanksgiving, but tend to paraphrase the various texts a bit. My own congregation has mostly done that, except the current pastor, who uses virtually none of it. When combined with the new post-Covid packaging I don't really get the sense of having communion at all. We also have a non-standard Lord's Prayer. I'm seriously considering trying a local Episcopal church.
 
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The Liturgist

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Current PCUSA practice is fairly recent, having been influenced by the ecumenical liturgical renewal movement in the 1960s and 70s. Most communion services I've seen follow the Great Prayer of Thanksgiving, but tend to paraphrase the various texts a bit. My own congregation has mostly done that, except the current pastor, who uses virtually none of it. When combined with the new post-Covid packaging I don't really get the sense of having communion at all. We also have a non-standard Lord's Prayer. I'm seriously considering trying a local Episcopal church.

That sounds miserable. I will pray for you. I do know of some very good PCUSA churches from a liturgical perspective but the problem in several mainline denominations tends to be the ability of the pastor to impose unilateral liturgical changes, which the Episcopal Church via its system of vestries and churchwardens has some protections against (this is why there are still conservative parishes in the Episcopal Church, nit to mention why the broad church/liberal catholic majority is interrupted by occasional low church or evangelical parishes and by extreme Anglo Catholic parishes, not to mention parishes like St. Thomas Fifth Ave, which aside from having the best musical program in the Episcopal Church (T. Tertius Noble, who is most famous for the music he composed while organist at Yorkminster, and the current choirmaster at Westminster Abbey, who is highly regarded for restoring a traditional sound to boys’ choirs, which emphasizes singing ability and creativity rather than the youth of the choristers, both had very successful careers at St. Thomas Fifth Ave before returning to the Church of England and taking on the roles for which they are most famous. Also I think St. Thomas Fifth Ave. has the finest collection of vestments, altar frontals and other paraments of any church in the Anglican Communion.

Alas it is probably too inconvenient for you to travel into the City to go to that or a PCUSA church with good liturgics, unless you happen to live next to a PATH station, however, I will say when it comes to the selection of churches, compared to the sparseness of the Western US, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts are extraordinary. Indeed the current Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch was previously Archbishop of the Eastern United States and the cathedral for that archdiocese is in NJ, and that archdiocese is much larger and better organized than the Western US and Canadian archdioceses.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Please correct me if I am wrong. I as remember concerning the real presence:
In Orthodoxy, the HS brings Christ's body DOWN to us in the congregation.
For Calvin, the HS brings the church UP to Him in communion.
In Lutheranism, Christ Himself comes DOWN in the Words of Scripture.
 
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hedrick

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Please correct me if I am wrong. I as remember concerning the real presence:
In Orthodoxy, the HS brings Christ's body DOWN to us in the congregation.
For Calvin, the HS brings the church UP to Him in communion.
In Lutheranism, Christ Himself comes DOWN in the Words of Scripture.
That’s not Calvin’s expression.

“We say that Christ descends to us, as well by the external symbol as by his Spirit, that he may truly quicken our souls by the substance of his flesh and blood”

Note also

“I deny that men carry away more from the sacrament than they collect in the vessel of faith. Thus nothing is detracted from the sacrament, nay, its reality and efficacy remain unimpaired, although the wicked, after externally partaking of it, go away empty. If, again, they object, that it derogates from the expression, “This is my body,” if the wicked receive corruptible bread and nothing besides, it is easy to answer, that God wills not that his truth should be recognised in the mere reception, but in the constancy of his goodness, while he is prepared to perform, nay, liberally offers to the unworthy what they reject. The integrity of the sacrament, an integrity which the whole world cannot violate, lies here, that the flesh and blood of Christ are not less truly given to the unworthy than to the elect believers of God; and yet it is true, that just as the rain falling on the hard rock runs away because it cannot penetrate, so the wicked by their hardness repel the grace of God, and prevent it from reaching them. We may add, that it is no more possible to receive Christ without faith, than it is for seed to germinate in the fire.”

Calvin says that the symbols of bread and wine truly present Christ, but our partaking of him happens only through faith.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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That’s not Calvin’s expression.

“We say that Christ descends to us, as well by the external symbol as by his Spirit, that he may truly quicken our souls by the substance of his flesh and blood”

Note also

“I deny that men carry away more from the sacrament than they collect in the vessel of faith. Thus nothing is detracted from the sacrament, nay, its reality and efficacy remain unimpaired, although the wicked, after externally partaking of it, go away empty. If, again, they object, that it derogates from the expression, “This is my body,” if the wicked receive corruptible bread and nothing besides, it is easy to answer, that God wills not that his truth should be recognised in the mere reception, but in the constancy of his goodness, while he is prepared to perform, nay, liberally offers to the unworthy what they reject. The integrity of the sacrament, an integrity which the whole world cannot violate, lies here, that the flesh and blood of Christ are not less truly given to the unworthy than to the elect believers of God; and yet it is true, that just as the rain falling on the hard rock runs away because it cannot penetrate, so the wicked by their hardness repel the grace of God, and prevent it from reaching them. We may add, that it is no more possible to receive Christ without faith, than it is for seed to germinate in the fire.”

Calvin says that the symbols of bread and wine truly present Christ, but our partaking of him happens only through faith.
Thanks.
 
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hedrick

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FYI, here’s what Westminster says

VII. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this sacrament, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually, receive and feed upon Christ crucified, and all benefits of his death: the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are, to their outward senses.

VIII. Although ignorant and wicked men receive the outward elements in this sacrament, yet they receive not the thing signified thereby; but by their unworthy coming thereunto are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, to their own damnation. Wherefore all ignorant and ungodly persons, as they are unfit to enjoy communion with him, so are they unworthy of the Lord’s table, and can not, without great sin against Christ, while they remain such, partake of these holy mysteries, or be admitted thereunto.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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FYI, here’s what Westminster says

VII. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this sacrament, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually, receive and feed upon Christ crucified, and all benefits of his death: the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are, to their outward senses.

VIII. Although ignorant and wicked men receive the outward elements in this sacrament, yet they receive not the thing signified thereby; but by their unworthy coming thereunto are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, to their own damnation. Wherefore all ignorant and ungodly persons, as they are unfit to enjoy communion with him, so are they unworthy of the Lord’s table, and can not, without great sin against Christ, while they remain such, partake of these holy mysteries, or be admitted thereunto.
How do you, good sir, see any difference between spiritually receiving Christ in the sacrament and metaphorically receiving Christ in the sacrament? It seems to be the same thing, really, one is said to be spiritual and the other a metaphor but both are invisible, non-corporeal, and definitely not "real" in the same sense in which a Catholic might say Christ is received in the sacrament.
 
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hedrick

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How do you, good sir, see any difference between spiritually receiving Christ in the sacrament and metaphorically receiving Christ in the sacrament? It seems to be the same thing, really, one is said to be spiritual and the other a metaphor but both are invisible, non-corporeal, and definitely not "real" in the same sense in which a Catholic might say Christ is received in the sacrament.
It’s hard to know what to say to someone who doesn‘t see the actions of the Holy Spirit as real. I certainly would agree that there are significant differences in the way we conceive of the presence.

”This is my body” is a metaphor (at least not literal; I’m not sure whether metaphor is the right term). But metaphors point to something, even if the language is non literal. I would say that it points to Christ’s presence. I don’t see how presence could be metaphorical.
 
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