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The end of the law, the Lord, & faith?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by hraedisc, Dec 31, 2002.

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  1. hraedisc

    hraedisc Veteran

    +16
    SDA
    Ro 10:4
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    Jas 5:11
    Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

    1 Pe 1:9
    Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

    Does end of mean cessation of?

    How does end mean the same in these passages?
     
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  2. coastie

    coastie Hallelujah Adonai Yeshua!

    +45
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I am really getting frustrated, I am tearing my house apart looking for my book that I'm pretty sure has the exact answer that you're looking for, but I can't find it.

    I'm about ready to call my wife at work and ask where the heck she put it, but I think that that might tick her off. Never accuse a preganant woman of anything. :)

    I'll see if I can find my book and give you an answer, I know it's here somewhere. :sigh:

    Blessings,

    Zach
     
  3. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi <><,

    The original Greek for the word "end" in Romans 10:4 is "telos."

    This means the aim or result or goal.

    Therefore, Paul is saying that Jesus' character is what the result or goal of the law should be.

    The Laws of the ordinances where nailed to the cross not the 10 Commandments.

    Paul upheld the 10 Commandments in his books. Here are just a few examples.

    1 Corinthians 7:19 _Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    Ephesians 6:1-3 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

    Romans 13:9 _For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Hebrew 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

    Acts 18:4 _And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.


    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  4. coastie

    coastie Hallelujah Adonai Yeshua!

    +45
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    you beat me to it!

    :p
     
  5. hraedisc

    hraedisc Veteran

    +16
    SDA
    If God's law has ended, then faith and the Lord has ended as well. Correct?
     
  6. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    HI <><,

    God and His law is inseparable. The law and character of God are one.

    Psalms 138:2 _I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

    The original Hebrew for the word "word" in Psalms 138:2 is "imrah." Imrah literally means "commandment."

    The original Hebrew for the word "name" in Psalms 138:2 is "shem." Shem literally means "character" or "authority."

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  7. Wonder

    Wonder Member

    108
    +0
    The law is to be kept....it isn't if we should keep the law...but it is about approaching our Father to find out how. One should "Do the Law"....Physically....to end any of it is to say its all over...but we are still here. If you do one point of the law then you are to do it all. It hangs together or falls together.
    I have asked my Father...and maybe someone here would know...how are we to keep the 10 commandments and the statutes and ordinances. I'm sure He will tell me in time :) Mean while I do what I been told.
     
  8. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Wonder,

    We are to keep the 10 Commandments but not the statues and ordinances. The statutes and ordinances were "nailed to the cross" when Jesus died.

    Please see the link below:

    http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=542313#post542313

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  9. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    huh? this makes no sense as the verse wld then read:

    Ro 10:4
    For Christ [character] is the [result] of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. ??

    it didnt say "Christ's character" but "Christ himself". The OC people were trying to gain righteousness by keeping the Law. But with Christ's work on the cross -- He kept the law and fulfilled it -- righteousness now comes as a gift by believing on Christ. Hence Christ is the end of the Law FOR righteousness.

    and I checked up the greek for "end". and this is what Strong's concordance says:

    5056 \~telov\~ telos {tel'-os}

    from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal);
    TDNT - 8:49,1161; n n

    AV - end 35, custom 3, uttermost 1, finally 1, ending 1,
    by (one's) continual + 1519 1; 42

    1) end
    1a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be
    (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end
    of a period of time)
    1b) the end
    1b1) the last in any succession or series
    1b2) eternal
    1c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
    1d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
    2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)

    sure sounds like the righteousness thru the law is terminated with faith in Christ.
     
  10. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

    +1,236
    Christian
    Married
    Ok the law ends in Christ who fulfilled it by being the real sacrifice of which the law sacrifices were merely typical. Ep 2:14-15 Col2:14-17 heb 8:5,10:1

    The law was our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ and was added because of transgression until Christ should come.Ga 3:19-25 Ro 5:20, Heb 9:10&nbsp;

    It cannot save, but condemns, making the sinner realize his need of salvation. Christ is the end of the law of sacrifices, types, rituals, and outward religion which foreshadowed him and the spritual realities of the New Testament. I hope this helps.
     
  11. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    EXACLTY blade! Amen!
     
  12. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Andrew,

    Are you saying that the 10 Commandments are void?

    According to the Strongs Greek, the word "end" means the following:

    05056:
    5056 telos tel'-os from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid):--+ continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare 5411. see GREEK for 5411


    That was a direct cut and paste from the Strong's Greek concordance.

    Jesus is the goal or result of the 10 Commandments. He is our example.

    Paul said the following:

    Hebrews 1:9 _Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    What does the word "iniquity" mean?


    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  13. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    yes. but let me qualify: we no longer obey the 10 Cs to get blessed (conditional OC system) nor to become righteous. we are now under grace.

    we only obey 2 things: the faith/Gospel unto salvation and the Law of love -- which fulfills all other laws (eg if you love your wife, you will not commit adultery).

    the Bible is quite clear that the ministry of death engraven in stones is now done away with.
     
  14. Wonder

    Wonder Member

    108
    +0
    Hi Truthseeker,
    quote:
    We are to keep the 10 Commandments but not the statues and ordinances. The statutes and ordinances were "nailed to the cross" when Jesus died.

    Please see the link below:

    http://www.christianforums.com/show...2313#post542313

    If all the "statutes and ordinances " are no longer to be kept then please tell me what it is to Love God.
    Why did Jesus keep the feast etc. He even told the apostles to wait in Jerusalem until Pentecost, this was after His death and resurection. You can read where the apostles continued to keep the feast days. Why would they do that if they were now void.
    I was one to think that only the 10 commandments were to be kept... but then as I done away with some laws I found myself saying another one isn't needed till one does away with them all. It is either all or none. If the house is split it will not stand. I know He gave us a solid foundation....The whole Bible is good, or its not.
    I believe that the Messiah, Jesus, did fulfill the laws, I also believe if you choose not to do the laws its ok, He took care of that also. He didn't destroy the Law in case one does love Him enough to be like Him..It is a test of the heart....to know He has everyone covered no matter their ways...salvation free to all...the only reason we keep the whole Law is because we love Him and want to be like Him...He kept all the Law and my dream is to be just like Him...In His Love
     
  15. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Andrew,

    According to the Bible, we were always grace. Grace is not something that just surfaced in the New Testament. Please read the book of Psalms and you will see this.

    Now, let's get back to the word "iniquity."

    Paul said:

    Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    The following is the original meaning of the word "iniquity."

    00458:
    458 anomia an-om-ee'-ah from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness. see GREEK for 459


    Remember, Jesus said:

    Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    My question to you is simply this: What law is violated or transgressed here?

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  16. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    that is simply not true. Hebrews contrasts Mount Sinai (Law) and Mount Zion (grace). When the Law was given at Mt Sinai, 3000 ppl died. When the Spirit was poured out in Mt Zion at Pentecost, 3000 got saved. Which shows that the letter kills but the spirit gives life. Hebrews further tells us that we have not come to Mt Sinai but Mt Zion.

    Paul also contrast law and grace in so many of his epistles, saying we have died to Mr Law and are now married to Jesus. He also contrasts Sarah and Hagar as a parallel to law and grace, and even tells us to cast out the bondwoman.
    so how can you say that there's never been any difference?

    and again, as I have said b4 twice, the ministry of death engraven in stones (10 Commandments) has been done away with. that is clearly stated in scripture:

    2 Cor 3: 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
    8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
    9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
    10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
    11 For if that which is DONE AWAY was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

    you are actually bringing people back into a minstry of death and condemnation by preaching the Law to them.
     
  17. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Andrew,

    I will explain the grace later. Please read the following and respond.

    Paul said:

    Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    The following is the original meaning of the word "iniquity."

    00458:
    458 anomia an-om-ee'-ah from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness. see GREEK for 459


    Remember, Jesus said:

    Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    My question to you is simply this: What law is violated or transgressed here?

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  18. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Andrew,

    Have you forgotten about this question?

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  19. The Thadman

    The Thadman Well-Known Member

    +58
    Pagan
    Married
    US-Others
  20. Wonder

    Wonder Member

    108
    +0
    We can either fall on the Rock...or one day the Rock will fall on us. We are told that if we keep the Law, that it would bring death. Is that not what we want? I want to die, and let Him live through me, that I might live but not I but Him through me. The Law will bring death, yet though it, we live that we may live through the Law.
    If we go and follow Him to the death, then He brings us life and life more abundantly. Our goal is to give up our life, then why does people seem to not want the Law if we are told that is the way we come to die to recieve Life?
    Die a good death...do the Law!
     
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