The end is come, the end is come

[the old scribe]

What should Christians expect and when?

Some acclaimed, modern Bible interpreters and preachers (premillennial dispensationalist) stated that the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus would be within 40 years, or a generation, of the founding of the modern State of Israel. When that time passed in 1988, or when the seven years previous in1981 (footnote1), some changed their interpretation to count from the date when the city of Jerusalem was captured during the Six Day War of 1967. Then when these dates elapsed in 1981 and 2007 some interpreters concluded that a generation means the 70 year life span allotted to man. Thus, the next prediction of the second coming of the Lord Jesus became 1948 + 70 = 2018 or 1967 + 70 = 2037. (footnote 2)

Footnotes:

1. 1981 being their last possible expected date of the rapture if there were to be a seven year tribulation before the return of Christ at the end of the tribulation in 1988 or calculated as seven years prior to 2018 or 2037 – those dates being 2011 and 2030. For this scenario to be valid there remains only one viable date, 2030.

2. Doubtless, once 2030 passes without the rapture some may speculate that a generation is neither forty years nor seventy years but one hundred years. This pushes the speculation for the Second Coming to 2067 and the rapture to 2060 – a hundred years after the Six Day War of 1967. After this date the speculation using the premillennial dispensationalism hypothesis should start to decline in favor of an alternative eschatology just as the historicist scenario declined in popularity after the passing of the last possible dates for the rapture, Second Coming, or the millennial reign. However, the speculation by premillennial dispensationalist has been very creative; accordingly, the proponents might discover a completely new hypothesis as did the Seventh Day Adventist did for the historicist view.

 

[keras]

You quote Peter 3:8 but it seems to me that you have not got the full meaning of the verse...

If it just said """ Beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the LORD as a thousand years""" Then i would whole heartedly agree with you and leave it at that.. But it then goes on to say """ and a thousand years as one day """ So a thousand years for God can be one day in our time or a day in our time or 1000 years in our time can be one day for the LORD .. Meaning that our time and His time are not linked in any ratio.. His time is not our universe time...

This premise is not correct.
What 2 Peter 3:8 says is a Hebrew parallelism, the same thing is mentioned twice for emphasis. Not reversed; that is sheer confusion and unscriptural.
Note that Psalm 90:4 is the first witness to the truth of the one day to God in heaven being the same as 1000 years earth time. It also gives a parallelism of that 1000 years on earth; like a watch in the night, a very short time to God.

This formula can be applied to Revelation 8:1, where is Seventh Seal denotes a half hour of silence in heaven. So a simple calculation gives us the time period of 'about 20 years' between the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster and Jesus' Return.
Which is about right for all that is prophesied to happen then.

 

[James Honigman]

E.W. Bullinger (1837-1937) - Companion Bible KJV 1910 &1990 - Bullinger’s career in the Church of England spanned 1861 until 1888. He is so closely tied to what is now called "hyperdispensationalism" that it is sometimes referred to as Bullingerism.

Bullingerism differs from mainstream dispensationalism with regard to the beginning of the church. Mainstream dispensationalism holds that the Church began at Pentecost as described early in the New Testament book entitled "Acts of the Apostles". In stark contrast, Bullinger held that the Church, which the Apostle Paul revealed as the Body of Christ, began after the close of Acts, only revealed in the Prison Epistles of the Apostle Paul. E. W. Bullinger. "The Companion Bible, Appendix 192. THE PAULINE EPISTLES.

Bullinger was also a member of the Universal Zetetic Society and Zetetic Astronomy magazine – a flat earth society.

Thanks so much, Scribe. I did not know any of that.

 

[James Honigman]

That is pretty neat, thank you for sharing that with me. I believe the Lord has spoken about these things in His word, having declared the end from the beginning. The seven days of creation tell us about how things will unfold and end. An example would be that the millennial kingdom, when Christ reigns 1000 years on Earth, is represented in the seven days of creation as the Sabbath, the seventh day. That gives us a clue that the days of creation represent 1000 years of time. The scripture also tells us in 2 Peter 3:8 that a day to the Lord is as 1000 years.

I personally feel that this view of eschatology is the most firmly rooted in the scriptures. We must let the word of God interpret itself and God has given us clues in the creation account that reveal how the overall timeline of creation plays out. The scripture also admonishes us:

James 1:5

If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you

We are all in need of Gods wisdom to understand the things of the end, and to understand setting the proper priorities. Our Lord asked a question in Matthew 24..when the Son of man returns will He really find faith on the Earth? Wisdom tells me that this is of primary importance. Will He find me doing what He told me to do? This is the crux, that without faith I won't be, and with faith I will be. The wise virgins are the ones who had their lamps filled with oil. I think they were called wise because they were properly prepared for the return of the bridegroom.

Thanks again Brother, and we do agree. I asked God for wisdom back in the late 80's and He continues to give it to me. Our Father is faithful. I believe the reason He is concerned about finding faith at His return is because Satan will have nearly everyone worshipping him. That is the first tribulation mankind must endure. I also believe that after the 2nd tribulation the 7th day, the millennial day will begin where, as it is written in both the Old and New Testaments that all shall be taught of God. Stay faithful Brother, and do not bow a knee to the antichrist.

 

[James Honigman]

You quote Peter 3:8 but it seems to me that you have not got the full meaning of the verse...

If it just said """ Beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the LORD as a thousand years""" Then i would whole heartedly agree with you and leave it at that.. But it then goes on to say """ and a thousand years as one day """ So a thousand years for God can be one day in our time or a day in our time or 1000 years in our time can be one day for the LORD .. Meaning that our time and His time are not linked in any ratio.. His time is not our universe time...

Also i do not think we shall enjoy the end times before the comming of our LORD Jesus... They will be terrible times it is always coldest and darkest just before the Dawn.. Oh yes we shall be joyfull when Jesus arrives but we shall have to go through the most terrible times on earth before He arrives..

Adstar, you took me literally when I was only joking about enjoying the END. You are right, no one will be enjoying the final tribulations. Insofar as time, the Holy Spirit, who wrote the Holy Bible, is not confused about time. He gave us those Scriptures for the wise to digest. I suppose I should add: not literally digest!

 

[James Honigman]

James, I am not thinking that Jesus's Second Coming is between now and May 2018 - simply because there is not enough time for the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 to fit in. I do believe that Israel a nation again, was a monumental end times sign. But the fig tree, I equate with Jerusalem - 1967 back in the hands of the Jews.

That would work out to Jesus returning before the end of 2037. Could be earlier, as long as we can work in the 7 years ahead of it. So whenever that 7 years start - Jesus's return will be at the conclusion of those 7 years.

Here's the combination again, that still everything can fit in....

1967+70 years = 2037. Not later than then, the end of 2037.
_____________________________________________________________

Here's what we have to have before the seven years start.

1. The EU (or something else for those who don't subscribe to the EU theory) has to go to a ten leader form of Government with one leader over them.

2. Then the attack on Israel, by the force called Gog/Magog.

So that is only two things, in order. First the ten kings and the little horn, then the Gog/Magog attack. Follow by the 7 years. At the end of 7 years, Jesus returns.... all to take place between now and the end of 2037.

Thanks for the clarification of your thoughts Doug, and I'm not disagreeing with you. The end could very well come in 2037. Let me throw you a curve ball though. As it is written, our Beloved shortened the days of the tribulations for the elect's sake; for if He had not no flesh should be saved. Y'shua loves us dearly, don't you think?

 

[Douggg]

Thanks for the clarification of your thoughts Doug, and I'm not disagreeing with you. The end could very well come in 2037. Let me throw you a curve ball though. As it is written, our Beloved shortened the days of the tribulations for the elect's sake; for if He had not no flesh should be saved. Y'shua loves us dearly, don't you think?

Hi James, sometime between now and the end of 2037, not that it has to be in 2037. Whatever year it turns out to be, there are 7years preceding it, which all of the end times prophecies are concentrated in those 7 years..

Regarding the shortening of the days, I don't think it can be a fewer number of days because there are too many fixed values, i.e. the 2300 days in Daniel 8, 1260 days in Revelation 11:3 and 12:6, the 42 months in Revelation 11:2 and 13:5. In addition we have the 7 year value.

So, there has to be another explanation other than "fewer" days. There are the two explanations, that to me, are viable. Here they are:

1. Toward the end of the 7 years, and the God is pouring out his wrath in the form of the vial (some translations use bowl) judgements - the sun beast down on earth, and scorches men. Then following that is the earth is plunged into darkness. Revelation 16:8-11.

So the theory is that shortening the days means shortening the daylight hours.

2. The other interpretation of God shortening those days - which this one is the view I hold - is that God
"limits" those days to the seven years, nor more than seven years. That it has already been determined how much the earth can take before all life is wiped out.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Generationally (is that a word?) speaking, it has been exactly 2 days since our Beloved was crucified. As it is repeatedly written, and the third day, He shall rise again. Is our Lord about to rise again, to begin the 3rd day?
Moreover, generationally speaking, our generation (2017) is exactly 6 days out from Adam's creation.

I agree with the logic behind this, it goes back a long way. But I think it would be difficult to use this method to pinpoint with any accuracy a specific season within the year. There was someone here and now at worthy who thinks he has it but I'm skeptical. I think I have it too and I'm still skeptical of myself. One other person insists that it's not measured from creation, but from the time that Adam fell. I don't think there's any way to find the year that Adam sinned.

Is the 7th day, the millennial day, about to begin?
Any thoughts are appreciated.

I think that it's started already or is a few months away, but just like in the days of John the Baptist, not everything is like the Pharisees prophecy teachers told us it would be. The falling away is finalized, the AofD is set up and standing in the holy place and the Man of Sin has taken his seat in the Temple of Our God and is thereby claiming to be Him. He just has to cause fire to fall from heaven in the presence of men to begin the year of recompense. And I'm afraid that there's a fine chance for this to happen right at the end of the year.

We don't have long to wait and see.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I think that it's started already or is a few months away, but just like in the days of John the Baptist, not everything is like the Pharisees prophecy teachers told us it would be. The falling away is finalized, the AofD is set up and standing in the holy place and the Man of Sin has taken his seat in the Temple of Our God and is thereby claiming to be Him. He just has to cause fire to fall from heaven in the presence of men to begin the year of recompense. And I'm afraid that there's a fine chance for this to happen right at the end of the year.

We don't have long to wait and see.

Dave would you please elaborate on this comment.

 

[Douggg]

.

 

[keras]

I don't think there's any way to find the year that Adam sinned.

Can you add numbers?
Add the years of the Jewish kings back from Zedekiah; the known date of the Babylonian conquest: 586 BC, to David, then to Abraham, then the Patriarchs to Adam. All of them have the years given in our Bibles.
Adam sinned in 3970 BC
+ 2000 - Abraham departed from Ur in 1970 BC
+ 2000 - Jesus commenced His ministry in 30 AD [Confirmed by Luke 3:1-2]
+ 2000 - Jesus will Return in 2030
Note: there is no need to add or subtract years at the BC/AD changeover. Just remember that all the years are counted at their commencement.

Also take note that much must happen before Jesus does Return, so expect dramatic events very soon!

 

[Dave Watchman]

Dave would you please elaborate on this comment.

It looked like I had made a couple of them.

The guy on the other thread is probably right, not everything is like it seems. It's like the tribulation of a Matrix style movie where we have to eat the little book to see it. It tastes sweet in the mouth but bitter in the gut. Our end times, our last days are from Revelation 12 until the middle of chapter 14.5. From Jesus' days on earth, through the dark ages of Europe where the dragon has chased the woman, the USA becoming the second wing of the great eagle and a place prepared by God, our great tribulation now pending and then until the 144,000 are seen around the throne. We are already through chapter 12 and are about half the way through Revelation 13 and the "theologians" have no idea what's going on. (Let The Reader Understand), should have been a heads up that the understanding of this would be unique. The dragon was cast out on resurrection Sunday into the earth, "now shall the prince of this world be cast out", and we are sitting here today waiting for him to rise up out of the earth and out of the abyss. But elaboration is elaborate and the composite beast is watching. No time or need to write a book.

When Jesus came the first time, all the theologians were wrong, only 2 old people met baby Jesus in the temple. So what IF we are wrong again...

What IF we have the rapture all wrong, and Clouds are who, not what..

The Man of Sin has taken his seat in the Temple of Our God and is thereby claiming to be Him. He just has to cause fire to fall from heaven in the presence of men to begin the year of recompense.

Here Paul is drawing from Daniel 8 and Matthew 23. He's not talking about a rebuilt temple on earth, he's talking about the Place of His Sanctuary in Heaven. Heaven's Temple. The first 2/3's of the composite beast's behavior, blaspheming God and to "slander his name and his dwelling place", is what will enable the Man of Sin to cause the signs to fall that will deceive the inhabitants of the earth. These are "on behalf of" the composite beast or are triggered by the first beast's actions.

The first beast has thought to change times and the Law. This beast is given a mouth like a lion to utter proud words and blasphemies. This is how he rises up to the place of His Sanctuary and takes away the "daily". All of this is happening in a way that we had not been expecting or had been taught to look for.

"And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth.
​

The composite beast, voted into place by many peoples and multitudes and nations and languages, has opened it's mouth to slander God's name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. This is the the Place of His Sanctuary, God's Temple in Heaven.

Paul was drawing from Matthew 23 where Jesus said:

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat"

"The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses"​

They have "seated themselves".

"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God

"so that he sets himself up in God's temple,

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God,​

He will "seat himself".

Moses was the teacher of the Law, the Word of God. He was long gone when Jesus said this so the Scribes and the Pharisees had really just taken over his job or his "seat", which was Moses' place in the Temple of God.

Our composite beast has thought to take over God's job, rising to the Place of His Sanctuary, by influencing the shift in morality, seeking to change times and the Law and promoting the trend in increased lawlessness. "Anti" can also mean "in place of". And the dragon gives this thing it's power and throne and great authority.

God said: "Remember the Sabbath", "You shall not murder", "You shall not commit adultery" and "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination".

The composite beast says: forget about the Sabbath, legalize inappropriate contentography, legalize abortion, legalize same sex marriage and have a sexual revolution.

When the Man of Sin seeks to change these specific times and these particular Laws, he by default has magnified himself above all that is called God or is worshiped and has set himself up in God's "seat" of authority in God's Temple thereby claiming to BE God. This is blasphemy to God and slanders his name and his dwelling place which is in the Temple in Heaven, not a rebuilt one on earth.

"Worship" comes from the word "proskuneo" and can also mean to "submit to" or "to obey". And he has been at work on this for a long time using various human agents but make no mistake it has been Satan's hand inside the glove.

I know that this is a stressful subject for most to talk about. I'm just thinking out loud here but I'm thinking that this is where we are right now with our end time Antichrist. His 42 months of authority has begun, we're approaching the 2/3's mark, but he's in a predicament. He can't be revealed until the 5th trumpet, so he's been working continuously and as fast as he can behind the scenes to cause the rebellion to reach and exceed it's limit.

This is how he is able to rise up to the Prince of the host, to the Place of His Sanctuary. He knows the sooner he completes this task the sooner that the sudden destruction will fall from Heaven which will enable his debut. He is trying to get the censer cast down from Revelation 8. This is how he causes fire to fall from Heaven in the presence of men. Through influencing the "falling away" or the "rebellion" on Earth he provokes the initial outbreak of God's Wrath in the form of the first trumpet.

This is what we're waiting for, this is what comes next:

"Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth.​

The dragon gives his power to the composite beast, which then on it's behalf causes the first four trumpets to fall from Heaven which are the signs that will deceive the majority of earth's inhabitants..

The devil influences world governments, which provokes the first 4 trumpets and these are the signs that the Antichrist will use to deceive the whole world. He is given power to perform these signs on behalf of the behavior of the composite beast.

The "daily' is taken away in Heaven's Temple by reason of transgression and then the censer is cast down, the Place of His Sanctuary cast down. The Antichrist is not going to confirm any covenants, that was Jesus' job in the first century. The Antichrist is going to rise up from the United States which is the "earth who helped the woman","Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth". After fire falls from the sky in the presence of men and when the Man of Sin rises from the abyss and is revealed, he will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will DIVIDE the land at a price. Then he will quickly go to the "glorious land" where without warning he will destroy many, a third of mankind.

The first trumpet destroys a third of the earth. This is not a natural or random meteor strike, this is directed by God. Would Jesus tell us to flee to the mountains and then hit those wilderness locations with trumpet number one, no way. Remember the day when Lot left out from Sodom, those instructions sound similar to the ones we have after seeing the abomination of desolation standing.

"and they brought him out and set him outside the city. And as they brought them out, one said, “Escape for your life. Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley. Escape to the hills

All of the Capital Cities from around the world who passed the transgressive laws will probably be gone right at the beginning. With the governments of the world taken out of the picture, the ten kingdoms will fill that void instantly. The land will be divided into ten kingdoms, ten toes.

The land divided for a price, a cost, that cost being the sudden destruction of our current regime. What a price to pay. We're so used to these things taking place over many long years, this might be so fast that we're not going to have time to think about it.

 

[James Honigman]

Hi James, sometime between now and the end of 2037, not that it has to be in 2037. Whatever year it turns out to be, there are 7years preceding it, which all of the end times prophecies are concentrated in those 7 years..

Regarding the shortening of the days, I don't think it can be a fewer number of days because there are too many fixed values, i.e. the 2300 days in Daniel 8, 1260 days in Revelation 11:3 and 12:6, the 42 months in Revelation 11:2 and 13:5. In addition we have the 7 year value.

So, there has to be another explanation other than "fewer" days. There are the two explanations, that to me, are viable. Here they are:

1. Toward the end of the 7 years, and the God is pouring out his wrath in the form of the vial (some translations use bowl) judgements - the sun beast down on earth, and scorches men. Then following that is the earth is plunged into darkness. Revelation 16:8-11.

So the theory is that shortening the days means shortening the daylight hours.

2. The other interpretation of God shortening those days - which this one is the view I hold - is that God
"limits" those days to the seven years, nor more than seven years. That it has already been determined how much the earth can take before all life is wiped out.

Thanks again for your thoughts, Doug. You may be right, but my thinking is that our Lord shortened the days of the tribulations to 5 months because of Revelation 9.5 where it states that men should be tormented five months. Also, Revelation 9.10 where it says, and their power was to hurt men five months. Also, in Revelation 12.12 our Lord tells us the devil has great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Just some thoughts to go with our fireworks.

 

[James Honigman]

I agree with the logic behind this, it goes back a long way. But I think it would be difficult to use this method to pinpoint with any accuracy a specific season within the year. There was someone here and now at worthy who thinks he has it but I'm skeptical. I think I have it too and I'm still skeptical of myself. One other person insists that it's not measured from creation, but from the time that Adam fell. I don't think there's any way to find the year that Adam sinned.



I think that it's started already or is a few months away, but just like in the days of John the Baptist, not everything is like the Pharisees prophecy teachers told us it would be. The falling away is finalized, the AofD is set up and standing in the holy place and the Man of Sin has taken his seat in the Temple of Our God and is thereby claiming to be Him. He just has to cause fire to fall from heaven in the presence of men to begin the year of recompense. And I'm afraid that there's a fine chance for this to happen right at the end of the year.

We don't have long to wait and see.

Thanks Dave, I think you are right, we won't have to wait too long.

 

[Douggg]

Thanks again for your thoughts, Doug. You may be right, but my thinking is that our Lord shortened the days of the tribulations to 5 months because of Revelation 9.5 where it states that men should be tormented five months. Also, Revelation 9.10 where it says, and their power was to hurt men five months. Also, in Revelation 12.12 our Lord tells us the devil has great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Just some thoughts to go with our fireworks.

Hi James, well following the 5 months of torment by the locust creatures, there is the 200,000,000 strong army that kills a third of mankind. Since the time of the four angels loosed, is set for an exact time, down to the very hour - I don't think the 5 months of the locust preceding this sixth trumpet judgment is a factor in "shortening those days".

What it does indicate to me is that the great tribulation won't go beyond the end of the 7 years - since everything has been set to a predetermined time table (as indicated by the blue below). If God allowed it to go beyond that, no flesh would survive - I think that is what is being meant by shorten - shortened from total annihilation - limited to the predetermined time table.

15: And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

 

[James Honigman]

Hi James, well following the 5 months of torment by the locust creatures, there is the 200,000,000 strong army that kills a third of mankind. Since the time of the four angels loosed, is set for an exact time, down to the very hour - I don't think the 5 months of the locust preceding this sixth trumpet judgment is a factor in "shortening those days".

What it does indicate to me is that the great tribulation won't go beyond the end of the 7 years - since everything has been set to a predetermined time table (as indicated by the blue below). If God allowed it to go beyond that, no flesh would survive - I think that is what is being meant by shorten - shortened from total annihilation - limited to the predetermined time table.

15: And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Thanks Doug. Again, you may be right!

 

[Douggg]

Thanks Doug. Again, you may be right!

Hi James, it has been a pleasure discussing with you, because even though you have a different view than me on several points, the discussion has not been combative. I don't have a problem with my fellow Christians having a different view than my own. What I don't like is when others become combative.

 

[beebert]

Generationally (is that a word?) speaking, it has been exactly 2 days since our Beloved was crucified. As it is repeatedly written, and the third day, He shall rise again. Is our Lord about to rise again, to begin the 3rd day?
Moreover, generationally speaking, our generation (2017) is exactly 6 days out from Adam's creation. Is the 7th day, the millennial day, about to begin?
Any thoughts are appreciated. Bless this forum.

You shouldn't speculate on it.

 

[beebert]

The 2000 years since Jesus commenced His earthly ministry, physically and then Spiritually, has 13 more years to go yet before its over in 2030.
There was exactly 2000 years before Jesus; 30 AD to Abraham: 1970 BC and then 2000 years to Adam: 3970 BC. So we approach the 6000 year mark of God's decreed time for mankind's rule of the earth. There is a lot that must happen before Jesus Returns to reign as King for the last 1000 years, so expect dramatic changes very soon. We ARE the generation that will see it all! Matthew 24:34

So said those who lived and witnessed Christ himself. You have no idea when. Every generation has said what you say. Better would be to always be prepared but to shut up and just live as a christian.

 

[beebert]

Hi Steve. As mentioned, my "dates" come from a Biblical scholar named Bullinger. He has Adam created in 4004 BC and our Lord's crucifixion at 29 AD. Those dates put our generation in the thick of it. Now, chronology can be argued till the cows come home, so I have no interest in debate on that subject. Those dates could be wrong and I would respect anyone's opinion that is different.

You should probably ignore that scholar. Adam means man. Man has existed far longer than 6000 years.