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The Elephant in the Bible (Video and Discussion)

Discussion in 'Discipleship: Following Jesus' started by John Helpher, Jan 10, 2021.

  1. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    No, there is an end to the questions. Either the answers match with Scripture when all is said and done or they do not. I am still looking to find that out.

    If you don't wish to answer, do not answer. The people posting have taken the time to dialogue with you because the topic is something they are interested in. Meanwhile you have questioned everyone's motives for trying to match up your view with Scripture.
     
  2. John Helpher

    John Helpher John 3:16 Supporter

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    Nah, you're not. Just look at what he said.

    Matthew 4:19-20 "And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. And they straightway left their nets, and followed him."

    Matthew 4:21-22 "And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them. And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him."

    Luke 5:10-11 "And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men. And when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook all, and followed him".

    Luke 18:28 " Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee."

    Matthew 16:24 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

    John 14:21 " He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:"

    John 14:23 " He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

    Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:"
     
  3. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    I am looking at what He said.

    Now why are you not willing to discuss the case of Phillip? Is it because you think that the Scriptures are flawed?

    The video you posted appears to be associated with Dave Mckay's group. Are you affiliated with them?
     
  4. John Helpher

    John Helpher John 3:16 Supporter

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    No, it's because you'll just ignore my reply and ask me about some other person, like you've been doing. You didn't address anything I said about Philemon. You just layered some other stuff on top of what I said. You're not interested in following Jesus. You just wanna do what you want to do and call it Christianity to make yourself feel better.

    This is why Jesus said, "This people draw near to me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" and "why do you call me, 'Lord', but do not obey me"?

    No amount of arguing about what Phillip or Philemon or Paul or anyone else did will impress Jesus when he asks why you didn't do what he and his followers did. You suggest that I'm not a good representative of this message. Maybe you're right. But I suspect Jesus will have far less patience with you on that day than I have shown. Now is the time of his patience. Sort yourself, bro.
     
  5. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Of course I did. Did you read post 75?

    Except the Scriptures indicate that Phillip and Philemon and Paul were followers of Jesus. So please reconcile that. The video you endorsed pointed to Acts. And you did as well. But as soon as something in Acts, or the rest of Scripture is pointed out that does not match up you will not explain it,

    Then when you said Philemon was not a member of the church, and I responded, you ignored that.

    You also apparently ignored the response after that addressing your incorrect argument about Paul in post 78. He still did not say he was wrong to work and planned to continue.

    Your patience when you accused everyone in the thread who tried to make sense of your view with Scripture of having bad motives? Why not discuss the Scriptures instead of your perceptions of people's motives?

    You are not Jesus. I will not be standing before you.

    I will have to answer for what Jesus commands. But Jesus is not out of step with the rest of Scripture. You seem to not want to address the rest of Scripture.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
  6. John Helpher

    John Helpher John 3:16 Supporter

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    This is the crux of your problem. You start with anything else you can find, and then try to fit Jesus into it. Jesus is the boss. He is the master. He is the messiah. He is the cornerstone. He is the word of God. That's Christianity 101. I don't want to get rid of other witnesses; that would be foolish. But, I do insist that any other witness must align with what Jesus said. If there is any inconsistency which cannot be reconciled through context etc, then Jesus wins. It's very simple.

    For example, your attitude toward Paul is inconsistent with the context. You've twisted his comments about work to mean, "for money". He did not say, "for money" but you hardly care about that. Your personal desire is to work for money so that is all you see in his writings.

    It's the same with your attitude toward Philemon. The standard Jesus set for his followers was to forsake personal ownership, share all things in common, and live and work together (yes, even in shared houses). It's what he did. It's what his disciples did, and it's what they taught thousands to do. This is the context of Paul's comments.

    Clearly, Philemon had not yet done this, even though he was moving in the right direction. Paul saw a lot of potential in him and was trying his best to encourage Philemon to do the right thing. This is what the text actually communicates; otherwise there would be no reason for Paul to encourage Philemon to let Onesimus go. But, you don't acknowledge that. You just stubbornly insist that everything was well with Philemon and what Paul really wanted him to do was to continue holding on to all his stuff and working for money.

    You can't see it because Jesus is not your cornerstone. He is not your master. In your mind he is not the ultimate authority. He's just one of many voices in the "Holy Book" from which you pick and choose according to how you think doing so may conform to what makes you comfortable.

    Look carefully at how you phrased your comment; Jesus must not be out of step with the rest of scripture; he must conform to what others say and do. Don't you see it?
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
  7. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Yes He is! And it is the Spirit that is to testify of Him that inspired the rest of Scripture as well. Which is why it is strange that you insist that the other Scriptures are out of sync.

    I read Jesus' words, and I don't see them the same as you. I am trying to understand your take on them. But you then don't want to explain all of your view.

    Of course. And they do.

    Except your whole concept is that Jesus' church was so without the leading of His Spirit that they got all this wrong for thousands of years, and in every place.

    Or you could be misunderstanding.

    You inserted the words for money. But he did teach work, work with hands, working so as to not be a burden, which he not only did, but said it was setting an example.

    And how would you know my personal desire? I am quite sure Jesus knows my desires. You don't know me at all.

    And this didn't involve Philemon or Phillip divesting their home apparently. Though of course they would use that home to help the church, which we see with Philemon, who's home the church met in. But some how you got out of the text that he is not a part of the church. He clearly is. He is addressed as a brother, said to have faith, the church meets in his house, he is a fellow laborer with Paul, etc.

    Paul was appealing for Onesimus. He didn't suggest Philemon get rid of his house. In fact, at the end of the book he indicated Philemon was to make a room ready in his house for Paul.

    Certainly Paul saw potential in Onesimus, and in Philemon. Philemon was already a fellow laborer, however, and was of the faith, a brother, and had already been refreshing the saints. Onesimus had been a runaway slave and the implication is he stole from Philemon, as Paul promises to pay back from his own account, though he also notes Philemon truly owes him his life, due to his being in Christ.

    18 But if he has wronged you or owes anything, put that on my account. 19 I, Paul, am writing with my own hand. I will repay

    Previously Onesimus (who's name means useful) had been "useless" to Philemon, but now he is useful to the Lord and to Philemon, since he has come to faith, and is laboring with Paul.


    I do not acknowledge your assertion he was not part of the church, when he was. I certainly note that Paul was appealing to him, not to get rid of his house, but to not punish Onesimus, and to forgive him, and free him to serve Christ.

    I see you continue to make judgments. However, Jesus is not so powerless that the Scriptures do not match up with Him.

    Yes, I see that Jesus says the Spirit will not speak on its own but will speak of Him. It would lead them into all truth. To believe that is to believe Jesus, not think that His church failed after a few years, and that only you and a Youtube video got it correct.

    Now you should explain your take on Phillip. You know he was a Christian. And you know he followed the Lord. And you know he had a house.
     
  8. John Helpher

    John Helpher John 3:16 Supporter

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    Do what you think is right. No one can be talked in to obeying Jesus, just like no one can be talked out of it. You do you.
     
  9. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    But you can still explain why Phillip had a house.
     
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