The Early Church Fathers did not teach modern Millennialism

[Acts2:38]

Thank you for your crisp and succinct comments.

This sounds like a preterist view, but, yes, 2,000 years doesn't seem like "soon". However, if someone were to soon in this generation write a vision of these events, well, that's a different matter.

The passages you mention from the book of Revelation, I think, refer to: (1) the increased persecution of Christians by the Roman Empire that was soon to occur and had already begun with Nero and Domitian; and (2) the decline and fall of the Roman Empire.

(Matthew 24:34) refers, I think, to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. and the writing of book of Revelation in 96 A.D. and his glimpse into the future.

Hello and thank you for kind and civil response.

Preterists do indeed believe along the lines of this, however, I am not one. One reason I am not one is that they try to merge Matthew 24 with Revelations. You just cannot do that if one wishes to look at the bible wholly and completely. So you are correct in your description about Revelation being about the decline of the Roman empire and such and Matthew about 70AD.

In my view, symbols are real, residing in the spiritual realm. Starting with chapter 4, John writes of events and realities in the spiritual realm, not the physical realm. (But there are interactions between these two realms.) So I would say the book of Revelation is literal; not allegorical, not figurative, not symbolic.

Your statements here is where I would have to kindly and respectfully disagree with you. However, I will place before you here my reasons with some informational links as to the reasons I would disagree, if you care to read them. They are not too long of a read. One will probably take 15-20 min and the other about 5-10 min.

One link is about distinguishing between "literal" and "figurative". The other is mainly about "armageddon" and such, but in there explains about why it is a heavily laden with symbols book. You probably need not read all of the "armageddon" one if you don't wish, since the main point I am getting across is (if you scroll down a little bit) titled in there "a symbolic book of hope" for the paragraphs.

How Do I Distinguish the "Literal" from the "Figurative"?

Armageddon: The Next of the "Left-Behind" Series

Anywho, again, Revelation is mainly symbolic/figurative, not literal. Take Genesis for example, "face of the deep". Revelation is chalk full of such expressions. It is clearly not literal.

Great discussion and questions though. Have a pleasant day if I don't get back to you today.

 

[GingerBeer]

Defenders of modern Millennialism often claim this was the view of the Early Church Fathers. I think it was not taught by any of them.

You are right. None of the early church fathers taught anything that is even remotely like the Millennial teachings in vogue today. The nearest to some kind of Millennial teaching resembling today's was promoted by heretics who also thought of themselves as prophets and apostles despite obviously not being so.

 

[HereIStand]

In City of God (Book XX, Chapter 7), Augustine address millennialism. In the passage quoted below, he does not reject altogether the idea of taking the 1,000 years as literal. He does reject a misunderstanding of how the saints will celebrate the 1,000 years. This misunderstanding of millennialism isn't represented in any modern theology, at least that I know of.

"One day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day, " 2 Peter 3:8 there should follow on the completion of six thousand years, as of six days, a kind of seventh-day Sabbath in the succeeding thousand years; and that it is for this purpose the saints rise, viz., to celebrate this Sabbath. And this opinion would not be objectionable, if it were believed that the joys of the saints in that Sabbath shall be spiritual, and consequent on the presence of God; for I myself, too, once held this opinion. But, as they assert that those who then rise again shall enjoy the leisure of immoderate carnal banquets, furnished with an amount of meat and drink such as not only to shock the feeling of the temperate, but even to surpass the measure of credulity itself, such assertions can be believed only by the carnal. They who do believe them are called by the spiritual Chiliasts, which we may literally reproduce by the name Millenarians. It were a tedious process to refute these opinions point by point: we prefer proceeding to show how that passage of Scripture should be understood.
CHURCH FATHERS: City of God, Book XX (St. Augustine)

 

[Anguspure]

Thank you for your lengthy and thoughtful reply. It was so long with so many topics, I chose the one that most caught my interest. To facilitate dialog you may wish to consider shorter posts focused on smaller more easily digestible topics. Please feel free to comment as often as you wish.

This 6,000 year cosmology is provably false: it has already been more than 6,000 years since the first human.

Actually according to the Jewish calender the Year is 5778 from Adam so another 222 to go before the end of the 6000th year.

 

[Anguspure]

Thank you for asking for the details of my argument; that is certainly a fair request.

Most recent date proposed for first humans: 4,004 B.C. by Bishop Ussher. Today's date: 2,017 A.D. The difference is greater than 6,000 years.

Note a side effect of accepting the 6,000 years view. You can't think of creation as happening in 10,000 B.C. or 15,000 B.C. as many creationists do.

You can however consider that time as accounted by men passes at a rate that they perceive only when men are present, and that Adam was created 5778 years ago. So the days of creation prior to Adam were in Gods time meaning that from an anthropological perspective the time passed may look completely different, as it indeed does.

 

[jgr]

Thank you for your excellent summary of some of the earliest Church Fathers. I might add a bit more:

We cannot assess the end-time viewpoint of Ignatius of Antioch because he mentions nothing regarding the millennium in the 6 letters he wrote on his way to Rome for martyrdom in 108 A.D.

Papias: there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth.

Fragment VI of Papias — from the Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord.
There is no mention of a rapture, great tribulation, antichrist, another resurrection.
​

Papias: work of the six days as referring to Christ and the whole Church.

Fragment VI of Papias — from the Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord.
So perhaps the millennium refers to the final state?​

Justin Martyr: two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy..., shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians...

Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew — Chapter CX
Note the antichrist comes immediately before the second coming; no rapture.​

There is much more that can be quoted from Justin Martyr.

Thanks for your excellent addenda as well. I concur with your Ignatius comment; mine was for a little "dispensational appeasement" for those of them who are insistent.

Justin Martyr is of significance, because contrary to the frequent dispensational portrayal of enmity between early amils and premils, or claims that amil did not even exist, Martyr had this to say:
""I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion [i.e., premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise."

He was referring to amils.

 

[Tayla]

The Jewish calendar today reads 5775 years since creation or Adam; the year 6000 is 225 years in the future.

Thank you for your detailed comments.

It's year 5,777 ending early September 2017. We are now (October 2017) in year 5,778. Then, you have to add 200 years to get the date of creation; they made an error. So get ready: the end of the world will begin in 22 years!

 

[keras]

It's year 5,777 ending early September 2017. We are now (October 2017) in year 5,778. Then, you have to add 200 years to get the date of creation; they made an error. So get ready: the end of the world will begin in 22 years!

Firstly the earth will never end. It will get renovated, but never destroyed. Ecclesiastes 1:4
As for thinking the Jews have a correct calendar; forget it! They admit themselves that it was changed and altered in the Middle Ages.
I and several other people have found from intensive study of all the prophesies, that the likely date for Jesus to Return is 2030, that date being exactly 2000 years since He was Baptized and commenced His Ministry on earth.
This means that all the things prophesied to happen before He Returns, must start very soon.

 

[Tayla]

Are you trying to say, for example, that when John saw a sign in heaven, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads, in the spirit realm this is exactly what he saw? A literal red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads?

Thanks for your insightful question.

Yes. That's what he says he saw. And he was viewing all this from the spiritual realm. (Revelation 4:1) (Revelation 4:2)

 

[Tayla]

Revelation is mainly symbolic/figurative, not literal. Take Genesis for example, "face of the deep". Revelation is chalk full of such expressions. It is clearly not literal.

Yes, I am familiar with the info in the first link.

In a sense I agree with you. I place everything non-material in the spiritual realm. Ignoring idioms which I don't view as figures of speech, I then interpret everything literally. If it says "God has wings", then he has wings. But since God does not reside in the physical realm, these are literally spiritual wings. In a sense, this means the same as a figure of speech. The difference is:

1. A figure of speech is a literary device, and you have construct arbitrary rules to determine which is which, then you have to assign an arbitrary meaning to it. I see this all the time in commentaries; it means so many things, it means nothing.
2. A reality in the spiritual realm is understandable via metaphysics. And there is no interpretation required. God has wings; done. You can ponder about this and derive significant meaning real time.

Anyway, "face of the deep": literal. "Face" means "surface". "Deep" means "ocean".

 

[Tayla]

You are right. None of the early church fathers taught anything that is even remotely like the Millennial teachings in vogue today. The nearest to some kind of Millennial teaching resembling today's was promoted by heretics who also thought of themselves as prophets and apostles despite obviously not being so.

Thank you for sharing your thoughtful and studied conclusions.

 

[sparow]

Thank you for your detailed comments.

It's year 5,777 ending early September 2017. We are now (October 2017) in year 5,778. Then, you have to add 200 years to get the date of creation; they made an error. So get ready: the end of the world will begin in 22 years!

I do not know what to make of this post other than it is short. I have around ten or fifteen year to go and I am hoping it won't happen in my lifetime, but the time will be determined by mad men, like ISIS or North Korea when God is ready; the end is when God is forced to intervene to save the world from total destruction and all the horrors are the birth pains of the new kingdom.

In reference to post# 19. I disagree with you taking symbolic language literally. Parables and symbolic language are the Hebrew semantic which ad infinite scope without which the language would be extremely concise. Taking symbolic language literally defeats the purpose of it.

 

[Tayla]

Actually according to the Jewish calender the Year is 5778 from Adam so another 222 to go before the end of the 6000th year.

Thanks for your comment.

Some people say that, back around the time of Christ, a mistake of 200 years was made concerning the date of creation. If this is correct, buckle up! Year 6,000 is coming soon! Only 22 years from now!

 

[Tayla]

You can however consider that time as accounted by men passes at a rate that they perceive only when men are present, and that Adam was created 5778 years ago. So the days of creation prior to Adam were in Gods time meaning that from an anthropological perspective the time passed may look completely different, as it indeed does.

Thank you for you comments.

I take a somewhat different view of metaphysics, the scientific method, modern science, and the 6,000 years of human history. I agree with the claim of modern science that the first modern humans appeared in Ethiopia 200,000 years and that humans migrated to all continents by 60,000 to 30,000 years ago.

 

[Tayla]

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion [i.e., premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise."

Thank you for showing hope that Christians can have unity and charity.

The quotation you provide:

Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew
Chapter LXXX — The Opinion of Justin with Regard to the Reign of a Thousand Years. Several Catholics Reject It
​

For those interested, I collected together all the relevant quotes here. Justin Martyr's view had little in common with modern premillennialism. Frankly, I have trouble combining all his statements into a coherent whole; perhaps I just haven't tried hard enough.

 

[Tayla]

Firstly the earth will never end. It will get renovated, but never destroyed. Ecclesiastes 1:4

Thank you for your intelligent comments.

Yes I agree the earth will never be destroyed. One day it will become (along with a renovated universe) the new heavens and new earth.

In my view the new earth will the same as this current earth, but with these following differences (due to the powers of darkness in the spiritual realm being gone):

1. No pain, suffering, death; physical, mental, or psychological.
2. No limited resources such as food, water, and energy; this because...
3. The chemical biological cells and other structures will not erode and decay, needing a constant source of new nutrients. Energy will be abundant at the molecular level to power metabolic reactions. Miracles can occur anytime anyplace as needed or desired.
   
4. No competition for resources. Everyone will have all they need.
5. God's direct tangible presence everywhere.

 

[Tayla]

In reference to post# 19. I disagree with you taking symbolic language literally. Parables and symbolic language are the Hebrew semantic which ad infinite scope without which the language would be extremely concise. Taking symbolic language literally defeats the purpose of it.

Thank you for your comments.

The problems with not interpreting everything literally are: (1) knowing when not to, and (2) "cracking" the code to get at the meaning. Reading the many divergent and conflicting views of theologians, commentators, preachers, and teachers demonstrates adequately, I think, the problem.

In other words: writing (or speaking) using figures of speech or symbols defeats the purpose of communicating. You may as well speak (or write) in French.

 

[sparow]

Thank you for your comments.

The problems with not interpreting everything literally are: (1) knowing when not to, and (2) "cracking" the code to get at the meaning. Reading the many divergent and conflicting views of theologians, commentators, preachers, and teachers demonstrates adequately, I think, the problem.

In other words: writing (or speaking) using figures of speech or symbols defeats the purpose of communicating. You may as well speak (or write) in French.

I don't think you have identified the problem. Understanding the word of God is not a academic event it is a spiritual event involving an interaction with God. The problem you describe is where God is not involved, it is not God talking but words talking.

 

[Tayla]

I don't think you have identified the problem. Understanding the word of God is not a academic event it is a spiritual event involving an interaction with God. The problem you describe is where God is not involved, it is not God talking but words talking.

Thank you for your considered comments.

It's the opposite with my view. You read the Word of God which is literally true. You let the words and images wash over you, drenching the weary soul, refreshing it. You don't have to decipher the hidden codes first.

 

[samir]

This 6,000 year cosmology is provably false: it has already been more than 6,000 years since the first human.

According to scripture and historians, we're somewhere between 5,900 to 6,000 years since Adam was created. Scripture gives dates of births for the earliest humans. If you add up the numbers, you can see that 1948 years passed from the birth of Adam to the birth of Israel. Once you get past the first two milleniums after Adam's birth using scripture, historians can fill in the rest. There's about 2,000 more years from Israel to the birth of Christ and a little over 2,000 years since Christ which brings us to just under 6,000 years. I'm aware the early Christians used different dates (thinking around 5500 years had already passed) but modern historians know better.