Who is 'the great red dragon' 'in heaven' of Revelation 12? (Multiple Choice option)

  • China

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • England

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Prince of Wales

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The nameless force of the cosmos

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I just don't know yet, but I would like to understand ...

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I just don't care ...

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 'Great Red Dragaon'?!!1?, is that like the Bibles version of It's the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • None of the above (state in post).

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    8
Status
Not open for further replies.

HeartenedHeart

Active Member
Apr 2, 2019
257
79
Pacific
Visit site
✟11,327.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The 'dragon' of Revelation 12.

maxresdefault.jpg


Let's identify this.

Here is a link to an entire powerpoint study to begin with, feel free to download it, read it, distribute it for free with the condition that it be not altered in any way. Let your 'yea', be 'yea'.

Revelation 12 Powerpoint:
TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free

Who is 'the great red dragon' of Revelation 12 according to the Bible, the scripture, and what do the verses mean according to the same?

Once we know this, we can identify other symbols more easily in the following chapters.

The Bible answer I received from the Bible, is two fold:

[1] satan (and thus he through)

[2] Pagan Rome.​
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Erik Nelson

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,068.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The 'dragon' of Revelation 12.

maxresdefault.jpg


Let's identify this.

Here is a link to an entire powerpoint study to begin with, feel free to download it, read it, distribute it for free with the condition that it be not altered in any way. Let your 'yea', be 'yea'.

Revelation 12 Powerpoint:
TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free

Who is 'the great red dragon' of Revelation 12 according to the Bible, the scripture, and what do the verses mean according to the same?

Once we know this, we can identify other symbols more easily in the following chapters.

The Bible answer I received from the Bible, is two fold:

[1] satan (and thus he through)

[2] Pagan Rome.​
It is the dragon (satan) working through pagan rome.
Satan who worked through the serpent (the craftiest beast of all the beasts in the garden) possibly who is now in the bottomless pit as the disembodied spirit (beast) in Revelation 17:8a.

(the serpent)
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

(end times person)
and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

___________________________________________________________


There was the dead brass serpent put on the pole for the children of Israel to look at to not die from the bite of the serpents (representing sin). And persons to look upon Jesus on the cross, like the serpent, to be healed from sin, as Jesus bore our sins and transgressions.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The death of the serpent is two fold; one the death of the enemy of mankind, two the death of sin.

There seems to be a theme from the beginning of the bible to the end attached to the serpent, which sin entered the world because of Satan using the serpent, which went along with it, and the end of sin and the serpent, and Satan.

The seed of the woman, Jesus, will crush the head of the serpent.
______________________________________________________________

I am not sure at what points the serpent issue is allegory, spiritual realm, literal realm, or elements of all three. The beast in Revelation 17:8b is metaphoric, but of a real end times person who will be killed, come back to life - and having the spirit of the beast currently in the bottomless pit.


 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,773
5,635
Utah
✟718,761.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,068.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Beast(s) in prophesy are symbolic for kingdoms, governments, political powers
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

3 different persons.
 
Upvote 0

HeartenedHeart

Active Member
Apr 2, 2019
257
79
Pacific
Visit site
✟11,327.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Following the identification of the scripture, are we all agreed that at the very least that 'the great red dragon' is a symbol of satan by the following texts:

Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev_20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,​

Yes?

BTW, the poll is a multiple choice poll, and you can choose more than a single option for those who believe it fits multiple identifications.
 
Upvote 0

HeartenedHeart

Active Member
Apr 2, 2019
257
79
Pacific
Visit site
✟11,327.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Revelation 12:9 NKJV
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan,
who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I casted my vote.
Excellent, now I have a question, for any who desire to answer it:

Since many understand 'the great red dragon' to be satan, how then was 'satan' 'in heaven' at the same time the 'woman' in the previous verses was, who was pregnant with 'the child', for the text says 'another' (Rev. 12:3)?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,068.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Excellent, now I have a question, for any who desire to answer it:

Since many understand 'the great red dragon' to be satan, how then was 'satan' 'in heaven' at the same time the 'woman' in the previous verses was, who was pregnant with 'the child', for the text says 'another' (Rev. 12:3)?
Paul indicated there are three heavens. The one where God's throne is - is the third heaven. The second heaven is the cosmos. The first heaven is our atmosphere.

When Satan and his angels rebellled - before the creation of the earth, they were not allowed to roam freely in the third heaven any more, and were restricted to the two lower heavens of the cosmos and the earth's atmosphere and earth itself.

When Satan and his angels persecuted the woman in the opening verses of Revelation 12, about to give birth to Jesus, they were attempting to keep the Kingdom of God from replacing the stranglehold that their kingdom called mystery Babylon the Great has on the earth.

When that did not work, Jesus born anyway, they attempted to have the King killed to keep the Kingdom of God away.

But the very thing they did in their part in Jesus's death sealed their fate, because with the death and resurrection of Jesus , freeing man from the penalty of sin, God can proceed to judge and destroy Satan and his angels for sin, without having to do the same for our sins-- since Jesus's death and resurrection washed our sins away as though they never happened.

1Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


_________________________________________________________________________

In Revelation 12:7-9, that war in heaven is talking about the cosmos, the universes, all the stars. Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth. It is not talking about the third heaven where God's throne is in those verses.

It takes place in the middle of the forthcoming 7 years, when the 7th trumpet sounds.

It is the first action that is taken to free the kingdoms of this world from mystery Babylon the Great, Satan and his angels' kingdom. As God starts tightening the noose around Satan's neck.

The following verse in Revelation 12:10 is about the Jews, Israel becoming Christians at that time in the middle of the 7 years. For 2000 years, Satan has accused them for their rejection of Jesus.

Near the end of the seven years, Satan's former abode of the Cosmos, power and principality in high places will be pulled back, like a scroll, in the sixth seal in Revelation 6, the sixth seal events.

________________________________________________________________________________

What Revelation 12 is about is two fold. The attempt by Satan to keep the Kingdom of God from coming to the earth and replacing his kingdom.

And about Israel, the Jews, how they go through the seven years, and coming to Christ. The first 1260 days is when they think the Antichrist is their messiah and what a disaster that will be as they have to flee to the wilderness.

And even worse when Satan is cast down having great wrath against the woman and the rest of mankind, for the remaining time, times, half time in the seven years.

The first five verses of Revelation 12 are historic. In part, to identify the woman in the rest of Revelation 12 as Israel.

Now anyone reading this post should have a good understanding overall of what is going on in Revelation 12.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

HeartenedHeart

Active Member
Apr 2, 2019
257
79
Pacific
Visit site
✟11,327.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Paul indicated there are three heavens.
And Paul got it from the OT, beginning in Genesis 1.

The one where God's throne is - is the third heaven. The second heaven is the cosmos. The first heaven is our atmosphere.
Basically.

When Satan and his angels rebellled - before the creation of the earth, they were not allowed to roam freely in the third heaven any more, and were restricted to the two lower heavens of the cosmos and the earth's atmosphere and earth itself.
Basically, though there is a bit more detail than that.

When Satan and his angels persecuted the woman in the opening verses of Revelation 12, about to give birth to Jesus
And how did 'satan and his angels' do that, by what earthly entity, government? And then who is the "woman" therein?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HeartenedHeart

Active Member
Apr 2, 2019
257
79
Pacific
Visit site
✟11,327.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
... In Revelation 12:7-9, that war in heaven is talking about the cosmos, the universes, all the stars. Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth. It is not talking about the third heaven where God's throne is in those verses.
Scripture disagrees with you here, for it says, "in heaven" (Rev. 12:8), which Greek use is "εν τω ουρανω" (in the (def. art.)) heaven, which was where Michael/Jesus was by the very throne of God. The same word is used in many other places to specifically refer to the third heaven, even wherein is the Throne of God the Father, such as in Matthew 23:9,22, etc:

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Mat 23:9 και πατερα μη καλεσητε υμων επι της γης εις γαρ εστιν ο πατηρ υμων ο εν τοις ουρανοις

Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

Mat 23:22 και ο ομοσας εν τω ουρανω ομνυει εν τω θρονω του θεου και εν τω καθημενω επανω αυτου​
 
Upvote 0

HeartenedHeart

Active Member
Apr 2, 2019
257
79
Pacific
Visit site
✟11,327.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It takes place in the middle of the forthcoming 7 years, when the 7th trumpet sounds...
Please keep the Jesuit Futurism from this thread, as that is not the topic at hand, thank you. The topic is Revelation 12's 'the great red dragon'.

Jesuit Futurism is error:

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism
https://amazingdiscoveries.org/RT_encyclopedia_Futurism_Jesuit_Ribera
Jesuit Futurism

https://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/the_origin_of_futurism.pdf

Left Behind by the Jesuits!!

Daniel 9:27; Luke 3:23; Hebrews 2:3, 10:26; Romans 15:8; Ats 7:51-60 (see connected, Luke 3:21-22, 4:1,14-19)

There is no more sacrifice for sins, for Jesus ended it.

The final week of Daniel (70 weeks) was ended in AD 34, according to scripture (above) and Jesus Christ Himself (see the BIG picture):

AWHN-2300-Day-Years-Prophecy-of-Daniel-8-Vs-14-And-Its-Sub-Parts.jpg
 
Upvote 0

HeartenedHeart

Active Member
Apr 2, 2019
257
79
Pacific
Visit site
✟11,327.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
... In part, to identify the woman in the rest of Revelation 12 as Israel.
Jesus is Israel:

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Mat 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
Mat 2:20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
Mat 2:21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.

Whom is Matthew, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost directly citing?

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Who then is the "child", that was "called ... out of Egypt", and whose "son" is he, and what was the name of this "son"?

Exo_4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

But was God merely talking about OT peoples, named from their ancestor Jacob? or was God speaking about a higher firstborn, a greater son, who overcame all things?

Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Who is this 'overcomer'? Who is this 'Prince with God'? Who then is this "son"? Well scripture calls this "son" the "firstborn". Who then is this "firstborn"?

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col_1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Luk_2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Mat_1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

From scripture, we find that Jesus is Israel, the real firstborn, the real overcomer, the real 'prince with God', the real "son" who was "called ... out of Egypt".
 
Upvote 0

HeartenedHeart

Active Member
Apr 2, 2019
257
79
Pacific
Visit site
✟11,327.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The first five verses of Revelation 12 are historic. ...
All of Revelation 12 is historic, meaning it takes place in history, most of it already completely fulfilled as of AD Oct. 22 1844. We are presently in the last verse:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Yet, this is not the intent of the thread. Simply the identification of 'the great red dragon', that's it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,068.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
All of Revelation 12 is historic, meaning it takes place in history, most of it already completely fulfilled as of AD Oct. 22 1844. We are presently in the last verse:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Yet, this is not the intent of the thread. Simply the identification of 'the great red dragon', that's it.
Well, you had asked a question in your post #8 and I responded.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,068.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Please keep the Jesuit Futurism from this thread, as that is not the topic at hand, thank you. The topic is Revelation 12's 'the great red dragon'.

Jesuit Futurism is error:

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism
Jesuit Futurism

https://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/the_origin_of_futurism.pdf

Left Behind by the Jesuits!!

Daniel 9:27; Luke 3:23; Hebrews 2:3, 10:26; Romans 15:8; Ats 7:51-60 (see connected, Luke 3:21-22, 4:1,14-19)

There is no more sacrifice for sins, for Jesus ended it.

The final week of Daniel (70 weeks) was ended in AD 34, according to scripture (above) and Jesus Christ Himself (see the BIG picture):

AWHN-2300-Day-Years-Prophecy-of-Daniel-8-Vs-14-And-Its-Sub-Parts.jpg
oh, you are SDA ?

Futurism was not "invented" by anyone. It is simply a view that most of the prophecy in the bible pertaining to the end times have not been fulfilled yet.

SDA fails in its interpretation because it changes days into years. It does not work for prophecy, unless specifically said so in the text which was only in a few places in the bible.

Jesus's body was in the grave how many days? 3 days? or 3 years ?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,068.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
And how did 'satan and his angels' do that, by what earthly entity, government? And then who is the "woman" therein?
Satan attempted to get Jesus to kill himself by tempting Jesus to jump off the cliff.

Regarding who destroyed the temple and the sanctuary, it was the Romans.

Where SDA, like the reformers, goes wrong in the Pope/Papacy being the Antichrist is that they don't grasp "Christ the king of Israel".

Mark 15:32.

To be the Antichrist, the person has to be anointed the King of Israel instead of and against the rightful King of Israel, Jesus. The pope is not qualified to be the King of Israel, because the person has to be a Jew and descended from King David.

John 12:12-15

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,068.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Please keep the Jesuit Futurism from this thread, as that is not the topic at hand, thank you. The topic is Revelation 12's 'the great red dragon'.

Jesuit Futurism is error:

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism
Jesuit Futurism

https://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/the_origin_of_futurism.pdf

Left Behind by the Jesuits!!

Daniel 9:27; Luke 3:23; Hebrews 2:3, 10:26; Romans 15:8; Ats 7:51-60 (see connected, Luke 3:21-22, 4:1,14-19)

There is no more sacrifice for sins, for Jesus ended it.

The final week of Daniel (70 weeks) was ended in AD 34, according to scripture (above) and Jesus Christ Himself (see the BIG picture):

AWHN-2300-Day-Years-Prophecy-of-Daniel-8-Vs-14-And-Its-Sub-Parts.jpg
What does N.S.L. to G.S.L. mean on your chart?

Why can't SDA just say that William Miller was wrong about the second coming of Jesus being in 1844, and just move on?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: parousia70
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HeartenedHeart

Active Member
Apr 2, 2019
257
79
Pacific
Visit site
✟11,327.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
What does N.S.L. to G.S.L. mean on your chart?
National Sunday Law to Global Sunday Law. Feel free to follow that here - Sunday Law News - Mark of the Beast Update for 2018 - 2019

However, that is not the subject of this thread.

Why can't SDA just say that William Miller was wrong about the second coming of Jesus being in 1844, and just move on?
Wm. Miller was incorrect about the event (2nd Advent) based upon a misunderstanding of the word 'sanctuary' and 'cleansed' (Dan. 8:14), but so were millions of others

The disciples were also incorrect about what was to happen to Jesus after the triumphal entry, even though both groups had been told in prophecy by Jesus what was to really take place.

The Jews themselves even misunderstood the texts in Malachi regarding the coming of Moses and Elijah. They got the timing right, but not the way in which it was to happen.

Time is correct. Event was off. Type (disciples) and anti-type (Wm. Miller, etal.).
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.