The Dover Trial and "Nova" special

Roderick Spode

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The trial itself didn't really seem to focus on the real issue it was designed for. To determine whether or not the teaching of ID in public schools is unconstitutional. Although I think I understand why they went all over the map, deviating from it's original intended focus.

The Nova special shown on PBS "Judgment Day:Intelligent Design on Trial", I consider a docu-soap opera. Using the sleight of hand method of magnifying one subject to cause invisibility of others.

I would though recommend seeing it with the hopes anyone would really listen to what they're saying.
 

LoricaLady

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I will leave some comments on the Dover trial, then forgive me but I won't look back, be back. Debates on evolution vs. creation go on endlessly and I don't have time for that right now. Either people will see what I have said, below, or they will not. Up to them.

Before mentioning the trial, let's look at the man who supposedly crushed intelligent design there, cell biologist Ken Miller.

I have seen a clip of Ken Miller, on the Colbert show, where he says that as a Roman Catholic he believes "Jesus Christ is the Creator of all that is, seen and unseen." In this exact same time period he was running around the country giving lectures on the so called collapse of intelligent design. So...his Deity is dumb and design free, yet created all this is seen and unseen? Wow. What a miracle!

In the same show Colbert talked about the primal pond as if it is gawd's truth scientific fact. There was a teachable moment. Miller could have told the audience that there is not a shred of evidence for any such thing, that life has never been observed to come from inorganic matter, even with intelligent design and high tech labs, and that it always and only comes from life and life of the same kind. But he only sat there in silent assent.

Now onto the trial itself.

If you want to settle science questions, guess where you go? Not to a courtroom with a politically correct, politically appointed, non science trained judge or any other judge. You go to the lab or to the field. The Dover Trial had zero impact on the creation movement. We saw how Kenneth Miller used the strawman logical fallacy to make his points against Michael Behe. That is, he first misrepresented Behe's points, then attacked the misrepresentations.

As for the chromosome 2 argument that cell biologist Ken Miller seemed so impressed by in his Dover court statements...

The whole chromosome 2 "evidence" for common ancestry, from some ape type creature, is actually a beautiful little example of how evolutionary defense is always based on logical fallacies. Most people - including myself in the past - couldn't tell logical fallacies from a hole in the ground. Thus they are easily confused.

Okay, so if you fuse those two of our chromosomes together you could say there is a superficial match - in number only - with the 48 chromosomes of apes. Uh, tobacco, potatoes and other life forms have 48 chromosomes, too. Ever heard of the Correlation Does Not Imply Causation logical fallacy?

Also, other chromosome fusions do occur which are not being mentioned. For example 1 in 1,000 people, who function like others, have an additional fusion, the Robertsonian Translocation. However, no one is claiming it comes from some ape type creature. Cows and some other animals have fusions but no one says that shows they evolved from something else. Ever heard of the Cherry Picking logical fallacy?

Also, the Chromosome 2 fusion is human in every way. There is no ape type info in it. In fact, apes have chromosomes that are larger in size than those of homo sapiens. Ever heard of the Incomplete Comparison logical fallacy?

We have exactly zero data - you know, what real science uses, unlike evolutionism which always presents theories as gawd's truth facts - to show when or how that fusion got there. Yet we are being told as scientific truth that we do know! Is there even a fragment of a toe bone from that murky, mythical, hairy creature that supposedly gave us a fusion? No, there is absolutely zero evidence any such life form ever existed. But you aren't being told maybe it existed. You are being told it DID exist and that it DID give us our chromosome 2 fusion. Ever hear of the Presuming Omniscience logical fallacy?

Every bit of evolutionism is based on logical fallacies, theories presented as evidence, data ignored or spun, and lots and lots of...faith...all stirred well with sophistry. If you truly learn your logical fallacies, and take them seriously - which most evolutionism defenders refuse to do - you will see that they under gird every evolutionary peer review.

In addition to the logical fallacies, we have a claim about Chromosome 2 which I have found no verification for. We were told the Chromosome 2 fusion was predicted before it was found, thus showing evotuionism is based on reality. I have asked quite a few people to cite any science publication that demonstrates the fusion was predicted before a science publication that shows it was found. They never get back to me. Can you find any such confirmation?

As for the touted so called 2% difference between chimps and people, that is a perfect example of skewing the data. Get a female chimp. Have a hair stylist work on her. Put her in a long, slinky dress. Teach her to wear high heels. Add some makeup and perfume. Then bring her to the Prom. See how many guys ask her to dance. Or... try getting her a blind date. Tell the prospective guy that you can't say much about her, but that she is only 2% different from all the hot chicks he knows. If he is dumb or desperate enough to still go on the date, see how he reacts when he sees her.

Take an ape or chimp to a preschool. Will it perform only 2% differently from the children there in terms of learning the alphabet, standing in line to go potty, drawing, coloring, singing, speaking? Will it have social skills that are only 2% below theirs? And will the children only be 2% different from the beast in terms of strength, hairiness, dentition - well, the list just goes on and on.

Evolutionism teaches you to drop your common sense on the floor as soon as they give you a "science" fact.

Anyone: You are not part ape. You are made in the image and likeness of your Creator, Who loves you and wants you to love Him, too, and to know Him for Who He is, the Father of Mercies. I know because, as a former atheist, He showed so much mercy to me.

Blessings and, again, bye!
 
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LoricaLady

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Addendum for those who like to look outside the disinfo gulag:

Here are two videos that have real science, reliable data, that is presented in a humorous way.
The first one deals with the so called close genetic similarities between chimps and us. The 2nd deals with a vital issue facing evolution in case you are interested further, SEX.



Again blessings and bye.
 
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Brightmoon

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I will leave some comments on the Dover trial, then forgive me but I won't look back, be back. Debates on evolution vs. creation go on endlessly and I don't have time for that right now. Either people will see what I have said, below, or they will not. Up to them.

Before mentioning the trial, let's look at the man who supposedly crushed intelligent design there, cell biologist Ken Miller.

I have seen a clip of Ken Miller, on the Colbert show, where he says that as a Roman Catholic he believes "Jesus Christ is the Creator of all that is, seen and unseen." In this exact same time period he was running around the country giving lectures on the so called collapse of intelligent design. So...his Deity is dumb and design free, yet created all this is seen and unseen? Wow. What a miracle!

In the same show Colbert talked about the primal pond as if it is gawd's truth scientific fact. There was a teachable moment. Miller could have told the audience that there is not a shred of evidence for any such thing, that life has never been observed to come from inorganic matter, even with intelligent design and high tech labs, and that it always and only comes from life and life of the same kind. But he only sat there in silent assent.

Now onto the trial itself.

If you want to settle science questions, guess where you go? Not to a courtroom with a politically correct, politically appointed, non science trained judge or any other judge. You go to the lab or to the field. The Dover Trial had zero impact on the creation movement. We saw how Kenneth Miller used the strawman logical fallacy to make his points against Michael Behe. That is, he first misrepresented Behe's points, then attacked the misrepresentations.

As for the chromosome 2 argument that cell biologist Ken Miller seemed so impressed by in his Dover court statements...

The whole chromosome 2 "evidence" for common ancestry, from some ape type creature, is actually a beautiful little example of how evolutionary defense is always based on logical fallacies. Most people - including myself in the past - couldn't tell logical fallacies from a hole in the ground. Thus they are easily confused.

Okay, so if you fuse those two of our chromosomes together you could say there is a superficial match - in number only - with the 48 chromosomes of apes. Uh, tobacco, potatoes and other life forms have 48 chromosomes, too. Ever heard of the Correlation Does Not Imply Causation logical fallacy?

Also, other chromosome fusions do occur which are not being mentioned. For example 1 in 1,000 people, who function like others, have an additional fusion, the Robertsonian Translocation. However, no one is claiming it comes from some ape type creature. Cows and some other animals have fusions but no one says that shows they evolved from something else. Ever heard of the Cherry Picking logical fallacy?

Also, the Chromosome 2 fusion is human in every way. There is no ape type info in it. In fact, apes have chromosomes that are larger in size than those of homo sapiens. Ever heard of the Incomplete Comparison logical fallacy?

We have exactly zero data - you know, what real science uses, unlike evolutionism which always presents theories as gawd's truth facts - to show when or how that fusion got there. Yet we are being told as scientific truth that we do know! Is there even a fragment of a toe bone from that murky, mythical, hairy creature that supposedly gave us a fusion? No, there is absolutely zero evidence any such life form ever existed. But you aren't being told maybe it existed. You are being told it DID exist and that it DID give us our chromosome 2 fusion. Ever hear of the Presuming Omniscience logical fallacy?

Every bit of evolutionism is based on logical fallacies, theories presented as evidence, data ignored or spun, and lots and lots of...faith...all stirred well with sophistry. If you truly learn your logical fallacies, and take them seriously - which most evolutionism defenders refuse to do - you will see that they under gird every evolutionary peer review.

In addition to the logical fallacies, we have a claim about Chromosome 2 which I have found no verification for. We were told the Chromosome 2 fusion was predicted before it was found, thus showing evotuionism is based on reality. I have asked quite a few people to cite any science publication that demonstrates the fusion was predicted before a science publication that shows it was found. They never get back to me. Can you find any such confirmation?

As for the touted so called 2% difference between chimps and people, that is a perfect example of skewing the data. Get a female chimp. Have a hair stylist work on her. Put her in a long, slinky dress. Teach her to wear high heels. Add some makeup and perfume. Then bring her to the Prom. See how many guys ask her to dance. Or... try getting her a blind date. Tell the prospective guy that you can't say much about her, but that she is only 2% different from all the hot chicks he knows. If he is dumb or desperate enough to still go on the date, see how he reacts when he sees her.

Take an ape or chimp to a preschool. Will it perform only 2% differently from the children there in terms of learning the alphabet, standing in line to go potty, drawing, coloring, singing, speaking? Will it have social skills that are only 2% below theirs? And will the children only be 2% different from the beast in terms of strength, hairiness, dentition - well, the list just goes on and on.

Evolutionism teaches you to drop your common sense on the floor as soon as they give you a "science" fact.

Anyone: You are not part ape. You are made in the image and likeness of your Creator, Who loves you and wants you to love Him, too, and to know Him for Who He is, the Father of Mercies. I know because, as a former atheist, He showed so much mercy to me.

Blessings and, again, bye!
. Hey here’s human chromosome 2 and the analogs in the other great apes
8C743461-BDBB-497C-ACE3-760FE92056E3.jpeg

As you can see the gorilla and orangutan had the tip come off and reverse . Now the black and white areas show areas where the DNA is active or inactive . The other chromosomes show the same or similar patterns because we share mostly the same DNA. Yes we are great apes
 
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LoricaLady

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I already said I am not going to debate this. Waste of time. You don't deal with the logical fallacies. You just cut and paste and USE them. "Same and similar" = Correlation Does Not Imply Causation. Conclusions based on those, with no data whatsoever to back up any such proposed ancestral creature is Presuming Omniscience. Of course you also use Incomplete Comparison and ignore the Cherry Picking being done, etc. etc. But why explain anymore to someone who apparently doesn't want to hear.

Cut and paste away. If you didn't see the obvious already, or don't want to, you won't see, or want to see anything else I have to say.

Some months ago you even got on a prayer thread for my sister and wanted to debate evolution there. You really, really want to believe you have an ape type creature hanging from your family tree. Have fun with that. While you can. Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
 
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Brightmoon

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The Dover trial pointed out that ID is a “ science stopper” as Ken Miller pointed out . They had biologists , paleontologists , a philosopher of science -Barbara Forrest, etc.

We don’t know how this works so we’ll blame God , isnt good science and is crappy theology as well.

The Dover trial transcripts are online . So you can read them rather than watch a tv documentary . The judge in the case was a Republican Bush appointee and he was annoyed that people thought that he based his ruling on political ideology rather than the facts in the case
 
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Brightmoon

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just a cut and paste that refuted your argument of humans not being apes . Of course you can confirm the accuracy of that drawing . But it is an accurate representation of great ape chromosomes

I remember you. I gave you some info about recent medical breakthroughs based on evolution that I thought could help your sister and you basically had a kitten. I assumed you were too upset to think so I just ignored it .
 
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Roderick Spode

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The Dover trial pointed out that ID is a “ science stopper” as Ken Miller pointed out . They had biologists , paleontologists , a philosopher of science -Barbara Forrest, etc.

We don’t know how this works so we’ll blame God , isnt good science and is crappy

theology as well.

The Dover trial transcripts are online . So you can read them rather than watch a tv documentary . The judge in the case was a Republican Bush appointee and he was annoyed that people thought that he based his ruling on political ideology rather than the facts in the case
If anyone wants to skip the documentary, great. It seems that the documentary is what has convinced so many that ID should
be kept out of the public classroom. The documentary, ironically won a Science Journalism award claiming excellence in science reporting.

The problem with the judge is that he's not qualified to judge whether or not ID is science, as I believe LoricaLady suggested as well. The trial wasn't about whether or not ID is science anyway. It was about whether or not it's unconstitutional. But of course that alone presents a problem because it begs the question should the constitution override seeking truth. Which lead the trial to become somewhat of a circus, going all over the map to take the focus off that particular problem. You won't find this statement by the judge on the Nova special.


Intelligent design arguments “may be true, a proposition on which this court takes no position,” he wrote, but it “is not science.”

I think the Nova production team among others are banking on this statement going unnoticed, but it should raise a red flag for anyone. The judge was actually exposing the problem of veering of the original intention of the court hearings. If it "may be true", then why should it be dismissed just because it supposedly doesn't fit the definition of science?


 
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Brightmoon

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If anyone wants to skip the documentary, great. It seems that the documentary is what has convinced so many that ID should
be kept out of the public classroom. The documentary, ironically won a Science Journalism award claiming excellence in science reporting.

The problem with the judge is that he's not qualified to judge whether or not ID is science, as I believe LoricaLady suggested as well. The trial wasn't about whether or not ID is science anyway. It was about whether or not it's unconstitutional. But of course that alone presents a problem because it begs the question should the constitution override seeking truth. Which lead the trial to become somewhat of a circus, going all over the map to take the focus off that particular problem. You won't find this statement by the judge on the Nova special.


Intelligent design arguments “may be true, a proposition on which this court takes no position,” he wrote, but it “is not science.”

I think the Nova production team among others are banking on this statement going unnoticed, but it should raise a red flag for anyone. The judge was actually exposing the problem of veering of the original intention of the court hearings. If it "may be true", then why should it be dismissed just because it supposedly doesn't fit the definition of science?

but intelligent Design is NOT Science. It doesn’t follow the rules of science . That was what the judge was asked to rule on- Whether or not ID failed the Lemon tests . One of those tests said that a religious belief can be taught if it also has an overwhelmingly secular purpose. ID failed that test. I’ll repeat for the ones in the back ID IS NOT SCIENTIFIC AND SHOULDNT BE A PART OF SCIENCE CLASSES!!!
 
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Roderick Spode

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but intelligent Design is NOT Science. It doesn’t follow the rules of science . That was what the judge was asked to rule on- Whether or not ID failed the Lemon tests . One of those tests said that a religious belief can be taught if it also has an overwhelmingly secular purpose. ID failed that test. I’ll repeat for the ones in the back ID IS NOT SCIENTIFIC AND SHOULDNT BE A PART OF SCIENCE CLASSES!!!
Fine, if ID doesn't fit the definition of science, it can be presented in a different department, like Philosophy. Right? If it's a mere technicality, move it to a different department. Miles Davis doesn't belong in the blues section, so move it to the Jazz section.

The court ruled that requiring the presentation of ID in the Dover public school was unconstitutional. They concluded that it's not science. If it's unconstitutional, shouldn't that be enough? Why the added conclusion, since it's not even the issue as far as the actual ruling?


It was decided that ID is a form of religion. What makes ID more religious than
Goldie Hawn's MindUp program where kids in a public classroom are taught to meditate? Goldie Hawn is a Buddhist. Someone who has power in court decided that The Mindup program is non-religious. That's the problem. All it takes is someone in power to decide what is religion and what isn't. Even if one tries to exclude the Buddhist element (or influence) behind the meditation employed in the classroom, the irony is that prayer is far more safer for children than meditation. It's questionable how appropriate meditation is for children, because there are potential dangers for anyone let alone children. I've never heard of any dangers in praying, other than outside suggestions of religious conspiracy.


What seems clear is that ID invokes fear of a Christian movement taking over the nation.
From what it appears from another thread, you seem to feel that ID equals a religious theocracy. And quite frankly, I think that's a huge problem overall manifested in that trial. Buddhism doesn't represent nearly as much of a threat to many concerned with religious presence in society, so therefore all it took was some person claiming the program is non-religious.

But again, by all means tell me, why not just determine that ID is unconstitutional without all the "it's not science" references? If something is unconstitutional, that should be reason enough, right?
 
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Brightmoon

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ID was actually part of the plan to to get the Christian religion back into USA public schools . Google the Wedge Document.

Buddhism doesn’t propose those sorts of public takeovers in the USA. Here most teachings of Buddhism are a harmless process for improving your lifestyle and you can be a Buddhist and be a Christian. Remember that things with an overwhelmingly secular purpose even with religious trimmings can be taught in public schools .
 
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Mattin91

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No one can be a Buddhist and a Catholic.

The Dover trial was caused by fear. Fear that the "sacred" science class would include the word ... God.
So, get a judge and a bunch of people who know that this trial will stop Intelligent Design, also referred to as 'stealth Creationism,' from sneaking into science class. The threat was amplified by the posting of the "Wedge Document." This was the plan that some Christians were allegedly going to use to gradually reintroduce God into public schools.

I firmly believe in Intelligent Design. It includes God. And it makes more sense than a supposed series of accidents. By the way, I am not for forcing God back into public schools.
 
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Roderick Spode

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ID was actually part of the plan to to get the Christian religion back into USA public schools . Google the Wedge Document.

Buddhism doesn’t propose those sorts of public takeovers in the USA. Here most teachings of Buddhism are a harmless process for improving your lifestyle and you can be a Buddhist and be a Christian. Remember that things with an overwhelmingly secular purpose even with religious trimmings can be taught in public schools .
I had already read the Wedge Document. That's why I brought up the humanist manifesto1 in another thread. What exactly in
the document are you claiming proves there's a conspiracy to
get Christianity back in public schools? Particularly since ID proponents like the DI make it clear that's not the case.

What public takeover is Christianity proposing?

As far as Buddhism, first off, Buddhism can be just as imposing as any religion. There are Buddhist States, Buddhist military regimes, and......Buddhism has it's own version of hell. So potentially, over periods of time, Buddhism in America/the west could evolve from today's American/Western Buddhism (or
McDharma Buddhism) to totalitarian Buddhism in Asia.

What's baffling is that you seem to think that religious separation from government means compromising is okay depending on your personal preferences. All religions are subject to the same rules. Buddhism doesn't get a free pass
because you have no problem with it.

As far as religions with a secular purpose, I'm going to take a wild guess and assume this doesn't include the Nativity scene
which simply extends a simple message of peace to all men. How much more secular purpose can we get than that?
 
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Pandasthumb has a lot more info about the trial . As I’ve said the transcripts are online . I think the pbs show did a good job of presenting the facts in the case over mainly 2 hours for a trial lasting several days . ID is still an unverifiable opinion within the scientific community so the fact that you like it means nothing. I don’t think of it as anything but a god of the gaps argument that creationists are trying to shoehorn into science without having any justification for doing so. come up with the VERIFIABLE evidence and I’ll certainly change my mind and so will the scientific community.
 
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Brightmoon

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I had already read the Wedge Document. That's why I brought up the humanist manifesto1 in another thread. What exactly in
the document are you claiming proves there's a conspiracy to
get Christianity back in public schools? Particularly since ID proponents like the DI make it clear that's not the case.

What public takeover is Christianity proposing?

As far as Buddhism, first off, Buddhism can be just as imposing as any religion. There are Buddhist States, Buddhist military regimes, and......Buddhism has it's own version of hell. So potentially, over periods of time, Buddhism in America/the west could evolve from today's American/Western Buddhism (or
McDharma Buddhism) to totalitarian Buddhism in Asia.

What's baffling is that you seem to think that religious separation from government means compromising is okay depending on your personal preferences. All religions are subject to the same rules. Buddhism doesn't get a free pass
because you have no problem with it.

As far as religions with a secular purpose, I'm going to take a wild guess and assume this doesn't include the Nativity scene
which simply extends a simple message of peace to all men. How much more secular purpose can we get than that?
I have no problem with meditation being taught in public USA schools . I have no problem with yoga, the Native American dances my kids learned , nor the African dances I saw as a kid which I think were religious in nature. I even liked learning some hymns as a kid ( I don’t think that would be allowed now ). I grew up in a extremely multicultural area of the country and it shows . My real pet peeve is teaching pseudoscience as if it’s science. I have no problem with kids learning different beneficial traditions or learning about different traditions.
Buddhism probably got a boost in the “ black community” because of that Tina Turner movie from the 80s. My youngest is a Buddhist and I’m fine with it.
 
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Roderick Spode

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Here most teachings of Buddhism are a harmless process for improving your lifestyle and you can be a Buddhist and be a Christian.
If Buddhism is okay because one can also be a Christian, is Christianity equally okay because a Christian (in this scenario) can also be a Buddhist?
 
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Roderick Spode

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Pandasthumb has a lot more info about the trial . As I’ve said the transcripts are online . I think the pbs show did a good job of presenting the facts in the case over mainly 2 hours for a trial lasting several days . ID is still an unverifiable opinion within the scientific community so the fact that you like it means nothing. I don’t think of it as anything but a god of the gaps argument that creationists are trying to shoehorn into science without having any justification for doing so. come up with the VERIFIABLE evidence and I’ll certainly change my mind and so will the scientific community.
i didn't intend for the OP to give the impression my only exposure to the subject was the PBS special.

As far as no evidence, that's not really what ID is about. There's also no scientific evidence of God, but from my understanding you believe in God's existence. To you, since you believe, nature has to be evidence of God. Even if you believe God only provided a spark that ignited a big bang, and just let things happen.

Richard Dawkins said nature gives the appearance of design. Not just that, but of design with purpose. We can't expect RD to apply the "If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck...." theme here, but to completely state that, and then claim design absolutely did not happen, doesn't that sound a bit suspicious?
 
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You’re wrong I don’t consider nature to be evidence for God. . I don’t know how God created and I’m not arrogant enough to assume that I do. Because I have a biology degree I can see natural phenomena being natural .

The concept of Design has no measurable parameters. The way it usually shows up is as , we’re ignorant about xy and z ,therefore God . That was essentially Behe’s argument during the Dover trial and he even claimed human ignorance about stuff we knew ( even though he didn’t) . It wasn’t exactly impressive testimony. And there’s the fact that the other IDers like Berlinsky just bailed on testifying under oath. But they did do a lot of sniping after the fact
 
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