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The Double Message of Eternal Security.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jun 23, 2017.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Please, lets not take out of context what I said.
    I essentially said before that believers are not under the whole of the commands in the Old Covenant (generally speaking) because the Old Covenant is no longer in effect. I said believers are under the commands in the New Testament. Certain Old Testament commands like the moral law have appeared to have carried over into the New. However, the moral laws are not enforced with capital punishment like they were in the Old Testament. So that is one way in how they differ when one compares the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. Disobedience to serious moral laws has always led to spiritual death. That has never changed. For the wages of sin is death.

    God's goodness and mercy reigns supreme.


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    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Ah, okay. So you believe there is no Eternal Security but yet you believe sin does not separate a believer from God in regards to their salvation. I disagree with this belief, as well. I see it as no more different than Eternal Security because it seeks to justify sin with the thinking one is saved. Such a thing is a violation of God's moral goodness or standards.


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  3. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You're welcome, and no need to explain a thing to me...I know exactly where you are coming from and exactly what you are dealing with here. You're doing a great job with the truth.
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Thank you.
    May you forever be strong in ths power of His might and great love, my friend.


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  5. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    ?

    I just answered Yes to your question that asked:

    Do you believe certain sins can separate a believer from God if they do not ask the Lord for forgiveness of those sins?
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Let me clarify. When you say they are not separated from his love are you saying they still have salvation when they commit serious sins? Yes, or no?



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  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. I have already been doing a study for a long time now.
    It is not yet complete. It is not some quick study but a very deep study.


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  9. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Actually, most (and possibly not all) Eternal Security proponents only believe in a half gospel or a milk type only gospel (i.e. The gospel's initial portion that tells them to believe in His death and resurrection - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This is the milk of the Word that the Corinthians could only accept. It was the only message they could bear because they were still yet carnal (See 1 Corinthians 3:2-3). It's why Paul said he came not to know anything among the Corinthians accept Jesus and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2) because they would not be able to bear the second half of the message of the gospel (i.e. the meat of the Word).

    The majority of Eternal Security proponents do not believe in the Bible's full or complete gospel (i.e. the meat of the Word). The second half or truth of the gospel is that Christ died so as to redeem us from all iniquity and so as to live holy and be zealous of good works.

    Hebrews 5:9
    "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, NKJV

    Ephesians 5:25-27
    25 “even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

    Titus 2:14
    “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

    Romans 1:16-17 says,
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
    17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." NKJV

    What is this faith look like?

    James 2:17
    “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”

    James 2:24
    “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

    James 2:18
    “shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”

    Hebrews 9:14
    “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

    Titus 3:8
    “This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.”

    1 Peter 4:1-2
    1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
    2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God

    Colossians 1:21-23
    21 “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
    23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.”

    Colossians 2:6-7
    6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
    7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in sin the faith,as ye have been taught,”

    1 John 1:7
    “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”


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  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    When I say the words "repented of": I am defining repentance as asking God for forgiveness of one's sin that is then followed by the natural fruits of repentance (which is forsaking and or putting away those sins).


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    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  12. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    No, I'm saying God loves sinners who are not saved, and loved us while we were yet sinners.


    Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.


    Just because He loves us, doesn't mean we are still saved.



    That's all I meant.



    JLB
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Ah, I am glad you said that. I agree with that truth within the Scriptures, as well.
    I believe God hates the sin and loves the sinner. Yes, God can get angry at sinners, but he ultimately loves us and desires all men to repent. Sometimes God knows that certain men will not repent and they will do really really bad things like worshiping the beast. Only these individuals (i.e. those who worshiped the beast) were never in the Lamb's book of life to begin with since the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). The rest of humanity has had their names in the book of life when they were a baby because of Jesus's sacrifice. Sin separated them from God whent they grew up and went prodigal and they need a spiritual rebirth and renewal of their heart with God to be saved again. This is surely the love of God. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. So beautiful this truth is. God loves us. Yet, He will not tolerate sin in His kingdom, though. Such a thing will prevent a person from entering His Kingdom if they do not ask the Lord for forgiveness of their sin and they forsake their evil and wicked ways.


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  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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  15. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    I hear what your saying, but remember God doesn't expect a baby Christian to become free of iniquities and sins they way He expects us older Christians who have had time to grow and mature in the way of walking in the Spirit.

    Repent for initial salvation means we turn from Satan as our lord, by confessing Jesus as Lord.

    Repent means turn to God.

    If we need to turn to God, then by default we need to turn away from Satan as our Lord.

    Confessing Jesus as Lord is act of obedience, that activates our faith when hearing the Gospel.

    • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Faith without the act or work of obedience is dead. James 2:20


    This is what grants us the forgiveness of our [past] sins, whereby we are translated into the kingdom of God, from the domain of darkness.

    This is what Paul was commissioned to do, by preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, the same Gospel Jesus preached to the Jews.


    • to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

    After this initial salvation, we are to undergo the process of transformation, whereby we are transformed into His image, by the renewing of the mind, which is another way of saying "restoring our soul".

    This is a process, and takes time, and involves repenting of sins, and iniquities.

    Here is the principle of repenting and being forgiven our sins.

    3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4

    • if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

    Yes I agree that we need to show the fruits of repentance, and that we can not just sin continually, thinking that all we have to do is say a "meaningless" I repent so we can continue to sin.

    However, there are those of us who have struggled with a sin, and asked God to forgive, then we find out we have fallen again, because we don't understand that we are to separate ourselves from sinners, and be around those who are doing the wrong thing, in the wrong place, at the wrong time.


    To whom much is given much is expected.



    JLB
     
  16. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Yes the phrase Paul uses over and over is: will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    This is a warning to Christians.


    Those who teach OSAS, deny this phrase as meaning something else, when Jesus Christ Himself established the meaning of this phrase.

    Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God will be cast into the everlasting fires of hell.


    19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


    again


    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10


    and again


    5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7




    JLB
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The passage in Colossians says,

    13 "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins"
    (Colossians 1:13-14).​

    This is talking about "Initial Salvation." But to have "Continued Salvation" one has to walk in the light as Christ is in the light so that the blood of Jesus continually cleanses them of all sin.

    "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

    "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6).​

    Same truth is expressed here:

    "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).​

    And same truth is expressed here:

    "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).​

    And same truth is expressed here:

    "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).​

    And same truth is expressed here:

    "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

    "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

    For...

    "He that committeth sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).​

    For Colossians 3:5-7 also says,

    5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
    6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
    7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them."​

    For it is written:

    "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish." (Romans 2:12).​



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    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I have told you before several times already that not all of God's commands in the New Testament leads unto spiritual death if they are not kept.


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  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I think God knows those who will seek to justify sin or not in this life. But if a believer dies in sins that lead to spiritual death without asking for forgiveness of such sin, then they are not saved. God is in control of life and death. If they die in unrepentant sin that leads to spiritual death (like murder, hate, adultery, etc.), it is a judgment against them. Yes, I believe God is patient and He is not willing that any should perish so He gives men time or space to ask God for the forgiveness of their sin.

    We beat this horse to death in another thread and we both came out of it by not agreeing with one another. I think it is best to agree to disagree on this one and let it rest.

    I agree with these truths as stated in Scripture. I believe obedience is a necessary part of the salvation process because it is proof that Christ is living within a person. However, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. However, fruits of the Lord within a believer's life will be evident if they truly accepted Jesus as their Savior.

    I agree that one can be saved initially by having a belief alone on Christ as their Savior. But I believe in time they will also come to receive Christ and ask Him for forgiveness of their sin, too.

    "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12).

    But we do not exactly agree on what repentance means. But that is okay. We are already discussed that before and did not make any head way. So it is good to let that discussion rest.



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  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I agree 100%.


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