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Featured The Doctrine of Justification and the Atonement

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jonaitis, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. Definitely

    8 vote(s)
    40.0%
  2. Yes, I think so

    5 vote(s)
    25.0%
  3. Not Sure

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. No, I don't think so

    2 vote(s)
    10.0%
  5. Definitely Not

    5 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    I believe that we can affirm the satisfaction theory. The satisfaction theory is simply an underdeveloped version of PSA. Its problem is that it does not go far enough and it ends up denying the important idea of imputation. So we can take the good of the satisfaction theory and say that there's more!
     
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  2. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, I take it back. I cannot in good conscience agree that it isn't necessary to believe in penal atonement. Sure, this may mean a lot of well-meaning "Christians" would fall out of what I would considered salvation, but I am bound by my convictions. I retract what I said in my last posts that affirmed that other theories can be held, it isn't consistent.

    I haven't felt like this for quite a long time, but I really regret it.

    If I am wrong, God may open my understanding in the future. Until then, I am bound by my own convictions...
     
  3. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    That's fine. You're allowed to struggle with the truth and still be saved. ;-)
     
  4. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    You're ALL WRONG, I am right :D
     
  5. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    The human legal system is used as a parable. Like with all parables, it breaks down at some point, because it is not like God in relation to those points.
     
  6. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how God's law is a parable...
     
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I used to wonder how people came to these conclusions. However, you can see the influence of Anselm's Satisfaction theory all over this. One can see how they came to this conclusion having started with the wrong premise.
     
  8. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    A lot of Christians believe that one is saved by faith alone. Do you believe this? If so, requiring one to believe in Penal atonement would be adding to the faith alone doctrine. Not only that but it would be a human work.
     
  9. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand what you are saying here...

    Sola fide cannot be divorced from solus christus, because faith is the instrument, while Christ is the object, of our salvation. Penal atonement addresses what Christ actually did. Do you know what you are talking about?
     
  10. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    I don't see how the Roman legal system is God's law.
     
  11. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    Where are you at?
     
  12. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    you do that quite often. Discuss theology, then ask a personal question outta nowhere.
     
  13. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    Huh?

    I'm talking about God's law, you're talking about Roman legal system out of nowhere.
     
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Oh yeah, I've been having these discussions for years. What I'm asking is how do you reconcile faith alone if that's what you believe, with the idea that one must believe in the doctrine of Penal atonement. Jesus and the apostles didn't preach Penal atonement, they preached the kingdom of God. Penal atonement isn't in the Gospel message, the faith. If you're claiming that one needs to believe in Penal atonement in addition to faith, you no longer have faith alone.
     
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  15. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We should put our faith in Christ Himself, not a theory about how He saves us.
     
  16. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    The survey topic is related to verses that use the legal system of the day as a parable, it's not related to God's principles, it's a metaphor.

    It is also important to note that since God does not show favoritism, intellectual assents are not required for salvation, just being born again by the Holy Spirit.
     
  17. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    I don't think ToL at least believes one is not necessarily required to believe that, merely the true church, his church, teaches it, and it is considered good and right.

    We (Lutherans) would have a similar sentiment about the doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from works. We don't damn all the Christians who lived before us who did not confess this doctrine.
     
  18. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    I'm pretty sure getting to heaven is not about getting our theology all in order and firmly nailed down. I'm quite sure God's account of things is going to leave us scratching our head a bit.
     
  19. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I don't hold the faith alone doctrine myself. I know many do. I've had people in the past say they believed in faith alone, but when you talk with them you find out that they believe you have to believe in some other doctrine. So they don't really believe in faith alone even though they claim to. I don't hold to Penal atonement either as I've found it doesn't fit with Scripture. The Scriptures don't tell us that God's wrath was poured out on Christ. They also don't tell us that Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer. These are concepts that people have inferred from certain passages of Scripture.
     
  20. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    I actually believe in faith alone because, much like Luther, I have experience with living without the doctrine, and it's not pretty. So for me it's more experiential based . But also understanding the historical theology that lead to the Reformation helped me to accept it intellectually, even if I understood it was true intuitively.
     
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