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Featured The Doctrine of Justification and the Atonement

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jonaitis, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. Definitely

    8 vote(s)
    40.0%
  2. Yes, I think so

    5 vote(s)
    25.0%
  3. Not Sure

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. No, I don't think so

    2 vote(s)
    10.0%
  5. Definitely Not

    5 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    C.S. Lewis seems to be on your side, he didn't think it was necessary to believe in particulars. I must disagree with him by my own conviction, brother...
     
  2. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    Would you bring a church member up on discipline charges if they rejected PSA in favor of the satisfaction theory?
     
  3. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing difficult in PSA, and I see it as nothing other than the gospel. If there are people who believe a gospel without it, what do they believe? Some here have mentioned CV theory, but this leaves so much room for them to build a works-based doctrine of justification.

    It is simple enough for a child to understand it: We are sinners, who have broken God's law, deserve punishment according, but Christ bore it on the cross for believing sinners.
     
  4. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    Many people have simply never been exposed to the terminology and theological implications. PSA also implies double imputation. I would argue that if you don't understand double imputation, you don't understand PSA. But these are ideas that many people have never been exposed to.
     
  5. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but satisfaction theory falls within PSA...
     
  6. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    It wasn't obscured, it wasn't there. For about the first thousand years the church held to the Ransom theory. Around 1100 AD. a Catholic theologian named Anselm of Canterbury decided that that wasn't good enough and devised the Satisfaction theory. The Reformers then reworked Anselm's theory into the Penal model. The Penal model is a relatively modern doctrine.
     
  7. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    No it most definitely is not. Scroll the Biblehub library list of resources HERE. I see nothing distinctly Reformed about it, yes there are Reformed resources among many non-Reformed resources. The same goes for the commentaries on Biblehub. It would be nice if the resources were organized by tradition along with brief biographical information to help people sift and sort. But I am just thankful for the wide selection of free resources tbh.
     
  8. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    They are actually very different. Satisfaction theory denies that Jesus suffered God's wrath or that he assumed the guilt of our sins in a literal sense.
     
  9. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    Satisfaction theory falls within PSA.
     
  10. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    How about we actually look at Scripture for once??
     
  11. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    I don't believe that's true. Satisfaction theory denies very important tenants of PSA.
     
  12. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    I'm tired of debating words, it does no good to the hearer. How about we find it in Scripture, does it speak of the necessity of it?
     
  13. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    You haven't answered my question. Would you bring up a church member on charges if they rejected PSA in favor of a different model like satisfaction or even Christus Victor?

    Does the Bible teach PSA? Yes it does. Does the Bible teach that a denial of PSA amounts to a denial of the gospel? I think that would depend on a lot of stuff and a general answer is not easy.
     
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I'm not sure you're going to find Scripture that talks about the doctrines of the Church that came later.
     
  15. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    Yes, if it gave room for works-based justification, which Christus Victor does.
     
  16. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    What about the satisfaction theory? What if a member said that Jesus died to remove God's wrath for their sins but they don't believe that Jesus literally suffered God's wrath or that their sins were imputed to Christ in a forensic sense. Likewise they do not believe that Christ's righteousness or suffering is imputed to them in a forensic sense. Would you bring them up on charges?
     
  17. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    I suppose any sort of satisfaction theories that lead to a forensic form of justification may not be an issue. My issue is how that person is justified, and a consistent view(s) of the atonement would be necessary for it. This is a serious issue in New Testament.
     
  18. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    Then you have answered your question. Since there are theories of the atonement which do hold to forensic justification but are not PSA, belief in PSA (in your view) is not necessary for salvation.
     
  19. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    I suppose you're right, Tree of Life.
     
  20. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    I don't get it, I mean it seems to me [select] atonement theories can be revised per Scripture in a way which would make them not only compatible but harmonious. Maybe I'm missing something though (probably am), but I cannot help but think no one theory compartmentalized as such within narrow definition does the atonement of Christ full justice. *shrug*

    "The Bible explains the cross in terms of both propitiation and expiation, the twin accomplishments of Christ in our behalf. Propitiation refers specifically to Christ’s work of satisfaction of God’s righteousness. He pays the penalty for us that is due our sins. We are debtors who cannot possibly pay the moral debt that we have incurred by our offense against the righteousness of God, and God’s wrath is satisfied and propitiated by the perfect sacrifice that Christ makes on our behalf. But that’s only one aspect of the work. The second is expiation. In expiation, our sins are removed from us, remitted by having our sins transferred or imputed to Christ, who vicariously suffers in our stead. God is satisfied, and our sin is removed for us in the perfect atonement of Jesus. This fulfills the dual sense in which sin was atoned for on the old-covenant Day of Atonement, both by the sacrifice of one animal and the symbolic transfer of the sins of the people to the back of the scapegoat, who was then sent into the wilderness, removing the sins from the people." - R.C. Sproul

    PROPITIATION — Romans 3:24-25
    "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation." The basic meaning of propitiation is "appease" or "satisfy." What did the death of Christ appease or satisfy in the nature of God? In his very nature, God is holy and righteous. He can have no fellowship with anything that is sinful, including sinful men. Thus, God's wrath burns hot against sin and sinners because he must judge all sin. If he does not do this, he is not acting according to his perfect character. But, in love, God sent his Son Jesus Christ to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. No mere human being could have atoned for the sins of men because all are sinners. But Christ, who was a perfect human as well as truly divine, became the perfect sacrifice for sin. God poured out his wrath against sin on the person of Jesus Christ. Thus, the death of Christ appeased God's wrath and satisfied his holy, righteous demands against sin." - Jack Arnold
     
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