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Featured The Doctrine of Justification and the Atonement

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jonaitis, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. Definitely

    8 vote(s)
    40.0%
  2. Yes, I think so

    5 vote(s)
    25.0%
  3. Not Sure

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. No, I don't think so

    2 vote(s)
    10.0%
  5. Definitely Not

    5 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Necessary for what?
     
  2. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    Originally, I meant for salvation (even this depends on what you mean). But, I felt for certain reason to edit it out and let you figure it out.

    Is both necessary to be saved? (hopefully this also stays within the guidelines)
     
  3. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    Is it necessary to believe in PSA in order to be saved? No, I don't think so.
     
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  4. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    PSA takes a long time to understand. If it were necessary to believe it in order to be saved then a great many people who sincerely believe in Jesus would not be saved. Furthermore, it is a doctrine that took a long time to develop. PSA wasn't fully developed until the Reformation. This could imply that most Christians before the Reformation would not be saved. Still furthermore, a great many sincere believers in Christ today do not hold to PSA. I think that they are seriously wrong in their rejection of PSA, but I would not go as far as to say that they are not saved.
     
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  5. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Well-Known Member

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    Why would it be important if it is mainly a Protestant innovation? A lot of other Christians prefer Christus Victor or if it is in a jurusdictial sense, then the ransom theory.
     
  6. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    It has antecedents in the patristic period and the middle ages, but Reformed scholastics sharpened the focus, and during the 19th and early 20th century, Fundamentalists adopted it as a so-called "fundamental" of the faith.
     
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  7. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    How do you understand Isaiah 53:10-12 in light of that CV or RT?

    I believe people fail to realize that PSA acknowledges the terms ransom, redeem, purchase, etc, but they are understood as something done for God, because of God, through God.
     
  8. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    We should see if it is in Scripture, rather than debate where the belief spiked historically and articulately among professing Christians.
     
  9. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    If humanity was not involved, then humanity could not be redeemed.
     
  10. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    Where did I say humanity wasn't involved?
     
  11. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    The Scriptures are far more ambivalent than you give credit, once you take away the Reformed presuppositions.

    There is no substitute for understanding historical theology and the history of ideas.
     
  12. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    Okay then, explain the passage I referenced to David.
     
  13. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    Animal sacrifices were not done as some kind of punishment to the animals. Indeed, the animals had to be valuable or even perfect and spotless. That is why I think the penal substitutionary theory doesn't necessarily clue us into the worldview of the authors who actually wrote down the Scriptures.

    Animal sacrifice really goes beyond what we think of as morality or juridical notions into the realm of aesthetics and speaks to something buried deep within our subconscious. We rarely interact with it now days as modern, civilized human beings. That's why legal metaphors were developed in the first place. But they are still metaphors nonetheless.
     
  14. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    So...this is a metaphor?

    "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.' Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for 'The righteous shall live by faith.' But the law is not of faith, rather 'The one who does them shall live by them.' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree' " (Gal. 3:10-13)

    What does a "propitiation" mean in Romans 3:25? Does this connect with Isaiah 53?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  15. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    Propitiation means sacrifice, but it need not be understood as some kind of law court transaction.
     
  16. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    I've understood it to mean an appeasement to divine wrath, am I wrong?

    "And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross..." - Colossians 2:13-14

    Is this just another metaphor?
     
  17. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    Sacrifices were not necessarily done to appease divine wrath, no. They could be done for many reasons, including to give thanks or to seal a covenant.
     
  18. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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  19. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    I agree, sacrifices were not only done for appeasing divine wrath, I'm talking about the concept of a "propitiation." They are different terms...
     
  20. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    Well, the Greek word is hilasterion, which simply refers to a sacrifice. Reading this through a purely forensic lens can be misleading. God was not angry with Jesus, God was pleased with Jesus and chose the Cross to be his glory, to overturn the curse of sin and death. And his death seals the covenant between God and humanity.
     
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