The Doctrine of Imminence

[MithrandirOlorin888]

YOu did not get this quite right. There will come a great and significant DEPARTURE, the rapture of the church, Paul's "gathering." It must come FIRST. Then, AFTER the gathering, that is the one restraining being "taken out of the way," THEN the man of sin can be and will be revealed.

So "that day," the DAY OF THE LORD, cannot come until the great departure [apostasia] comes FIRST.

When one SEES the man of sin revealed that will be PROOF POSITIVE that the Day of the Lord has started and they are IN IT.

His coming FOR His saints will certainly not taken those living in the light as a thief, because we will be WATCHING for His coming.

LAMAD

NO, the context of II Thessalonians 2 is clearly Paul refer to the "Gathering" in discussed in the prior Epistle when he says that won't happen until after the falling away and the unveiling of the Man of Sin. The "retainer" being removed refers to Revelation 9.

 

[Bible2]

Old Timer said in post 60:

Just the same error of believing the lie that the church is Israel..

Note that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he's been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Also, the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who've been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

 

[Interplanner]

B2, no noting. That tribal stuff is not the meaning of the NT at all. Start over. Start from scratch.

11:1 means he was a Jew in a specific sense. It does not mean believers need to or have to identify a tribe to be those who have faith in the Gospel, which is what forms the new non-tribal, non-ethnic "Israel." He's using imagery, not literalism categories.

 

[MithrandirOlorin888]

NO, Gentile believes in the Church are NOT made part of Israel, Israel and the Church are separate covenants, one is Christ's mother the other his Bride.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Bible2;65379102]

Note that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

This is total and complete Poppycock Bible 2. The Bible in no way, shape or form says that the church is Israel. It says that Israel, the natural branches have been broken off from the root and fatness of the olive tree. The root would be Jesus and God. Therefore any grafting would not graft the church into Israel it would graft the church into the promises of God. Further, the regrafting of Israel shows that God is not done with his chosen people.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he's been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Also, the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who've been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

All this......asking God what tribe you are in is just nonsense. The gentile is not grafted into Israel but is grafted into the root and the promises of God.

Israel is Israel and the church is the church. God is not done with Israel. The ark door is shut 7 days before the flood. What is going to happen to Israel after the pretrib rapture? Israel's eyes will be opened to their Messiah.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[John S]

The 12 Tribes of Israel DO exist.
The Pre-Trib Rapture is Satanic garbage meant to deceive people.

 

[Interplanner]

The tribes exist, although heavily liquidated, but it is irrelevant to what the NT says has happened in Christ. God does not deal in ethnos anymore, or rather, in all of them.

Rom 11 is not a prophecy or a prediction. It is a spurring or prodding to Jews to be in Christ's Gospel's mission. The 'Redeemer to Zion' is quoted in historic sense; it happened in Christ and his new covenant. That's why the concluding paragraph of Rom 11 is punctuated by "nows" 3x.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The 12 Tribes of Israel DO exist.
The Pre-Trib Rapture is Satanic garbage meant to deceive people.

I suggest that you should be watching and waiting.

The real Satanic garbage is the abundance of alien abduction movies, shows, docs, commercials etc that are poured upon the earth to educate the masses on what supposedly happened when the pre trib rapture takes place.

 

[Bible2]

Choose Wisely said in post 65:

It says that Israel, the natural branches have been broken off from the root and fatness of the olive tree. The root would be Jesus and God.

Just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

Similarly, all those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b) but also the Gentiles in the church are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7,8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

Choose Wisely said in post 65:

Further, the regrafting of Israel shows that God is not done with his chosen people.

That's right.

In Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It's the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18) during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

 

[Choose Wisely]

rollinTHUNDER;65311387]

We often hear pre-trib rapture believers claiming that all other positions violate the doctrine of imminence. The word of God has no such doctrine.

If you read a post or two below, you will see that this comment is without merit.

This doctrine was created by pre-trib scholars as another means for supporting their pre-trib theory.

Do have any proof that this is the case. I can point to the Word of God as to where it was created.

But the only way such a doctrine could carry any weight is (if) the pre-trib rapture is proven to be the correct position, which can not be known until it either happens or fails. But if the seven year covenant is confirmed without the rapture occurring, then this doctrine falls flat on its face, along with the theory it was designed to support. So it's pretty useless.

We are commanded to be watching and waiting. We are also told that there will be a gathering after the tribultation...........and there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars prior to this gathering. And yet with all this concrete evidence, we are still told that we will not know when He is coming..HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? Pretty simple..........

On the other hand, I want to point out another violation I see, a real one.

First off, your first violation did not pan out. I suspect the same result on this so called....real violation.

(I was wrong..........you are correct in your violation. However, you are only proving what I am saying. Thanks for the help.)

I believe the pre-trib theory violates God's appointed times (feasts). In Christ' first advent (first coming) all of the spring feasts were fulfilled by Christ at there appointed times, to the very day and hour. All of these spring feasts were fulfilled in the spring of the same year.

As I pointed out earlier, Pentecost is a Harvest feast, and no harvest has occurred. Pentecost is unfulfilled and will not be fulfilled until the harvest takes place.........early summer.
Matt 24
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh

So it is highly likely that the fall feasts will be fulfilled in the same manner. There are still three feasts remaining, Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles. And these feasts have there appointed times as well, and will likewise be fulfilled by Christ upon His return.

Since there has been no harvest........Pentecost is unfulfilled. Therefore your premise is incorrect that the fall feasts will happen in the same time frame as the spring feasts were not fulfilled in the same time frame.

If a pre-trib rapture occurred, this would delay the two final feasts for seven years. I just can not see that happening.

The pre trib rapture will occur on Pentecost.......therefore there will be three feasts left.

However, the pre-trib theory is not alone in violating the Biblical feasts, because the post-trib theory would violate these feasts as well.

As I pointed out, the harvest of Pentecost is unfulfilled.

A rapture and second coming occurring on the same day would force all of these feasts into a single day. I don't see that happening either.

Well there you go.........you got it.

You are finally making some sense. The rapture and second coming happening on the same day would force the feasts to occur on the same day. You are correct......THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN.
What will happen..........Pentecost - harvest of the church. Feast of Trumpets - The regrafted twelve tribes are gathered from the four corners. Then comes the second coming.

The spring feasts were fulfilled just before His departure back to heaven and the fall feasts will be fulfilled upon His return.

The giving of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was not the fulfillment. Pentecost will not be fulfilled until the harvest.......pretrib.......at the trump of God.

 

[Interplanner]

minor note:
where is 'the regrafting the tribes from the four corners' from? If you look at Mt24B (v29+) the whole setting is global, nothing Judaic about it.

 

[Choose Wisely]

minor note:
where is 'the regrafting the tribes from the four corners' from? If you look at Mt24B (v29+) the whole setting is global, nothing Judaic about it.

I said 12 tribes.....that have been scattered globally.

If the first fruits of a harvest is pumpkins we know the harvest is pumpkins.

We know that the first fruits are of the 12 tribes, therefore we know the harvest is the 12 tribes.

Rev 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[Bible2]

Choose Wisely said in post 70:

And yet with all this concrete evidence, we are still told that we will not know when He is coming..

Note that Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the 1st verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the 2nd verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having 1st revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

Choose Wisely said in post 70:

Matt 24
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh

Matthew 24:32-34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's 1st year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

--

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

Choose Wisely said in post 70:

Since there has been no harvest........

The 3 stages of a harvest are firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 bodily resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits bodily resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23); 2. the future bodily resurrection of the entire church at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 and right before the millennium (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then 3. the bodily resurrection at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

 

[Kingdom_Come]

YOu did not get this quite right. There will come a great and significant DEPARTURE, the rapture of the church, Paul's "gathering." It must come FIRST. Then, AFTER the gathering, that is the one restraining being "taken out of the way," THEN the man of sin can be and will be revealed.

So "that day," the DAY OF THE LORD, cannot come until the great departure [apostasia] comes FIRST.

When one SEES the man of sin revealed that will be PROOF POSITIVE that the Day of the Lord has started and they are IN IT.

His coming FOR His saints will certainly not taken those living in the light as a thief, because we will be WATCHING for His coming.

LAMAD

Apostasia is not referring to a literal physical departure. As we see it used in so many other places, it is referring to a figurative departure from one’s previous belief or loyalty. This is not to mention the fact that the context of Paul’s message essentially precludes interpreting it any other way. After all, his subject that is established in the very first verse is the coming of Christ and our (he is including himself in that number) gathering together to Him. He goes on to say that the man of sin will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming: the same coming of Christ he started out talking about where we are all gathered together to Him. He has not changed his subject. If one can keep that fact straight, it will be much easier to avoid confusion. Saying that the departure (as in rapture) must happen before we are gathered together to Him simply makes no sense, yet the rendering that you are offering suggests exactly this. Context as well as proper exegesis make clear that a falling away or apostasy or defection from truth takes place much like we read in 1 Tim 4:1.

 

[n2thelight]

Apostasia is not referring to a literal physical departure. As we see it used in so many other places, it is referring to a figurative departure from one’s previous belief or loyalty. This is not to mention the fact that the context of Paul’s message essentially precludes interpreting it any other way. After all, his subject that is established in the very first verse is the coming of Christ and our (he is including himself in that number) gathering together to Him. He goes on to say that the man of sin will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming: the same coming of Christ he started out talking about where we are all gathered together to Him. He has not changed his subject. If one can keep that fact straight, it will be much easier to avoid confusion. Saying that the departure (as in rapture) must happen before we are gathered together to Him simply makes no sense, yet the rendering that you are offering suggests exactly this. Context as well as proper exegesis make clear that a falling away or apostasy or defection from truth takes place much like we read in 1 Tim 4:1.

Very well stated.......

 

[iamlamad]

Apostasia is not referring to a literal physical departure. As we see it used in so many other places, it is referring to a figurative departure from one’s previous belief or loyalty. This is not to mention the fact that the context of Paul’s message essentially precludes interpreting it any other way. After all, his subject that is established in the very first verse is the coming of Christ and our (he is including himself in that number) gathering together to Him. He goes on to say that the man of sin will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming: the same coming of Christ he started out talking about where we are all gathered together to Him. He has not changed his subject. If one can keep that fact straight, it will be much easier to avoid confusion. Saying that the departure (as in rapture) must happen before we are gathered together to Him simply makes no sense, yet the rendering that you are offering suggests exactly this. Context as well as proper exegesis make clear that a falling away or apostasy or defection from truth takes place much like we read in 1 Tim 4:1.

Here you go, trying to spiritualize away the truth of scripture - say it is "figurative." Does it make good sense in its literal sense? OF COURSE it does.

If one is blind to one coming of Jesus and thinks there will be only one more coming, of course they will try to force all scriptures pertaining to His coming into that one coming they see.

Saying that the departure (as in rapture) must happen before we are gathered together to Him simply makes no sense

I have also heard this argument as "the rapture must happen before the rapture happens." Both or silly. Both shows a complete lack of understanding of what Paul wrote.

WHAT must come first before WHAT? What does Paul say?

2 Now we ask you, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to him, 2 that you not be easily shaken from your composure, nor be troubled either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter alleged to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has arrived. 3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

What day? "That day" is referring right back to the "Day of the Lord" from verse 2.

So Paul wrote "the day of the Lord" will not come until the apostasia comes first.

Of course, if one incorrectly thinks that "the day of the Lord" is synonymous with the rapture, they will never understand this scripture. The rapture is not the same event; in fact, Paul tells us the rapture will be the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord....and not really the day but the SIGNS for the day.

Isaiah 2 speaks of a great earthquake as a SIGN for the Day. John speaks of this same earthquake at the 6th seal. Joel speaks of the sun turning dark and the moon into blood as a SIGN for the day. John also shows this sign at the 6th seal.

Paul wrote of "sudden destruction" coming upon all who are left behind at the rapture. That sudden destruction is a SIGN for the day and for the start of HIS WRATH. What did Paul write?

1 thes. 5:9 because God did not appoint us for wrath, but for the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

That was just after Paul wrote:

3 Whenever they say “Peace and security,” then sudden destruction will overtake them like the birth pains of a pregnant woman, and they will not possibly escape.

So Paul is telling us that the "sudden destruction" is the start of God's wrath, or at least a SIGN of His imminent wrath or the sign of the start of the DAY. There is no verse that tells us the rapture happens DURING or IN the Day of the Lord.

Paul's "gathering" then, comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord, as Paul teaches. What then comes FIRST?

The apostasia comes first. How can we tell what Paul's meaning is? Simple: take the verse IN CONTEXT:

2 Thes. 2:6 And you know that which restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is at work already; only the one who now restrains will do so until he is out of the way, 8 and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of his mouth, and wipe out by the appearance of his coming,

Notice that something is restraining the man of sin....PREVENTING his revealing for the right time. However, the one restraining will be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, removed, departed.

Notice how Paul starts verse 6, telling the readers that NOW THEY KNOW who the restrainer is. HOW could a reader know? Of course because Paul as just TOLD THEM.

So back up verse by verse and find something DEPARTED or taken out of the way. There is only ONE THING, and that is "THE Apostasia." It is not just any apostasia, it is a SIGNIFICANT one.

There is just no way around it, the meaning of apostasia HAS TO BE the very same as the restrainer being departed.

Notice how verse 3 ends: and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

Notice IS REVEALED. If He IS revealed here, then in the first part of verse 3 the one restraining him MUST BE DEPARTED. Since "departed" is a good translation of "apostasia" Paul is telling us that it is the CHURCH DEPARTED that is the restrainer taken out of the way. So Paul then fulfills his theme of this passage, the gathering.

Keep in mind, the SIGN that must come FIRST so one can know the Day of the Lord has begun, must be something easily recognized. The rapture of the church will certainly fit. Will a "falling away" fit? How could ANYONE tell if the right number has fallen away? There has been a general falling away for many years. No, Paul had to mean something SIGNIFICANT and easily recognized. Again, the rapture fits.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

I said 12 tribes.....that have been scattered globally.

If the first fruits of a harvest is pumpkins we know the harvest is pumpkins.

We know that the first fruits are of the 12 tribes, therefore we know the harvest is the 12 tribes.

Rev 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

How amazing: the 70th week of Daniel is for the JEWS and Israel!

LAMAD

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 76:

Paul wrote of "sudden destruction" coming upon all who are left behind at the rapture.

Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

iamlamad said in post 76:

Paul wrote of "sudden destruction" coming upon all who are left behind at the rapture.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

--

The unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8) and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the awesome miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

iamlamad said in post 76:

Paul wrote of "sudden destruction" coming upon all who are left behind at the rapture.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus when the catching up together (rapture) of the church will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 76:

1 thes. 5:9 because God did not appoint us for wrath, but for the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they're killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b).

Note that nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be (as is sometimes claimed) God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the 1st stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, whereas he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

iamlamad said in post 76:

Notice how Paul starts verse 6, telling the readers that NOW THEY KNOW who the restrainer is.

When Paul says, regarding the restrainer, "now ye know what withholdeth" (2 Thessalonians 2:6), he was addressing the 1st century AD Thessalonians to whom he'd previously explained everything in person (2 Thessalonians 2:5). That is, "now" included both a time in their past and their present, just as, for example, the "now" in 1 Thessalonians 3:8, Colossians 1:26, and 2 Timothy 1:10 included both a past time (compared with the exact moment those letters were first read) and the present.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Here you go, trying to spiritualize away the truth of scripture - say it is "figurative." Does it make good sense in its literal sense? OF COURSE it does.

If one is blind to one coming of Jesus and thinks there will be only one more coming, of course they will try to force all scriptures pertaining to His coming into that one coming they see.

Saying that the departure (as in rapture) must happen before we are gathered together to Him simply makes no sense

I have also heard this argument as "the rapture must happen before the rapture happens." Both or silly. Both shows a complete lack of understanding of what Paul wrote.

WHAT must come first before WHAT? What does Paul say?

2 Now we ask you, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to him, 2 that you not be easily shaken from your composure, nor be troubled either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter alleged to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has arrived. 3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

What day? "That day" is referring right back to the "Day of the Lord" from verse 2.

So Paul wrote "the day of the Lord" will not come until the apostasia comes first.

Of course, if one incorrectly thinks that "the day of the Lord" is synonymous with the rapture, they will never understand this scripture. The rapture is not the same event; in fact, Paul tells us the rapture will be the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord....and not really the day but the SIGNS for the day.

I am not the one saying it is figurative. The way it was used demonstrates that it is figurative. If I may be permitted, I’ll share an older post again in order to keep from rewriting the same points again.

2 Th 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (ἀποστασία, “apostasia” not “apostasion”) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(same verse in the Greek) μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον. ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,

The majority of translations you find into English render the word “apostasia” as falling away, forsake, apostasy or rebellion. This is because this is how the word was used in the Greek from a literary standpoint.

Acts 21:21: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Context is everything. Was the speaker saying that the Gentiles were physically moving away from Moses? No, the speaker is talking about forsaking the teachings of Moses. Here apostasia is rendered forsake because that is what the author is talking about.

Josh 22:22:

The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion (Hebrew word mered which means rebellion), or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,) (KJV)

ὁ θεὸς θεός ἐστιν κύριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς θεὸς κύριος αὐτὸς οἶδεν καὶ ισραηλ αὐτὸς γνώσεται εἰ ἐν ἀποστασίᾳ (apostasia) ἐπλημμελήσαμεν ἔναντι τοῦ κυρίου μὴ ῥύσαιτο ἡμᾶς ἐν ταύτῃ (Greek)

We know from the Hebrew texts that this is speaking about rebellion against God. The translators into the Greek chose the word “apostasia” to communicate this. Now the Septuagint translation was done somewhere between the first and third century B.C.E. What does that tell us? Clearly they understood the word apostasia to equate to rebellion. You can do some research on the translation of the Septuagint if you want to know more about this translation’s history.

2 Chron 29:19:

Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away (Hebrew zânach which essentially means fail, forsake or reject) in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD. (KJV)

καὶ πάντα τὰ σκεύη ἃ ἐμίανεν αχαζ ὁ βασιλεὺς ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ αὐτοῦ ἐν τῇ ἀποστασίᾳ (apostasia) αὐτοῦ ἡτοιμάκαμεν καὶ ἡγνίκαμεν ἰδού ἐστιν ἐναντίον τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου κυρίου (Greek)

In this passage king Hezekiah instructs the Levitical priests to prepare to begin honoring the commandments of God and prepare to sacrifice once again unto The Lord because their fathers have transgressed against The Lord. In essence the temple is defiled, and the priests sanctify it to prepare it to be used again. In particular we see that king Ahaz in his sin cast away (or rejected) the vessels which the priests have now sanctified and prepared to once again be used. Again, “apostasia” is used to relate king Ahaz’s rejection of the things of God; in essence he turned away from God.

Jer 2:19:

Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken (Hebrew ‛âzab which means “fail” or “forsake”) the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts. (KJV)

παιδεύσει σε ἡ ἀποστασία (apostasia) σου καὶ ἡ κακία σου ἐλέγξει σε καὶ γνῶθι καὶ ἰδὲ ὅτι πικρόν σοι τὸ καταλιπεῖν σε ἐμέ λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός σου καὶ οὐκ εὐδόκησα ἐπὶ σοί λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός σου (Greek)

Here again we see the word “apostasia” chosen by the translators of the Septuagint to communicate forsaking The Lord. We know this because the Hebrew they were translating from is speaking about forsaking The Lord; in essence apostasy. So this was the concept they were trying to communicate, and they chose of all words “apostasia”.

Josephus writes about an apostasia against the Romans. Clearly he is talking about a revolt. Why is considering all of this important? It’s important because it gives us a glimpse into the minds of those who translated the Hebrew Scripture into Greek and how they understood the word apostasia. That gives us a glimpse into how the people at large reading this Greek text would understand the word as well. They clearly associated the word apostasia with rebellion or forsaking in particular the things of God. You cannot properly define or understand a word outside of its common usage. It is that usage which gives a word its definition.

The problem that you face in wishing to interpret apostasia the way you choose to – despite all the literary evidence to the contrary – is that Paul links both the gathering of Christ’s people (including himself) and the destruction of the man of sin to the coming of Christ in this very passage, and we know that the beast (man of sin) is destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ. Logically, if the gathering of the elect is linked to the same event or moment in time (the coming of Christ; see 2 Thes 2 verses 1 & 8) as the destruction of the man of sin, then it too must happen at the Second Coming. It is precisely for this reason that it would make no sense for Paul to be referring to a literal departure happening before the departure (rapture before the gathering he initially spoke of in verse 1). He never even hints at the two being separate events. They both happen when Christ returns. Contextually, there is nothing in the passage to indicate that he has changed his subject from what he stated it to be in verse 1: concerning the coming of Christ and our gathering together unto Him (this is the Day of Christ).

So when he says that he does not wish for them to be concerned about whether the Day of The Lord (Day of Christ) has come, he is still speaking about that same Day he started out speaking about where he said we would be gathered to Him. He has not changed his subject. He is not suddenly and without warning speaking of a different Day or event. So yes, the Day of The Lord is that Day which dawns with the Second Coming of Christ, and His church is caught up to Him at the dawning of that Day. The battle of Armageddon takes place on that Day. The man of sin is defeated and cast into the lake of fire on that Day. The power structure of this world is broken on that Day. The full restoration of Israel happens on that Day. Christ will establish His kingdom upon the earth on that Day. Nations will beat their swords into plowshares on that Day. The final resurrection will happen on that Day. All of the dead will be judged on that Day. The old heavens and the old earth will pass away on that Day. All will be made new on that Day. And unless we understand that John was speaking of that Day when he said that those in the first resurrection will live and reign with Christ 1,000 years, it will be virtually impossible to understand how all of these things can happen on that Day, just not all at the same time on that day; for it is not a day as we in this world understand a day to be, but it is a day with The Lord which Peter describes as being as a thousand years.

The Day of The Lord or Day of Christ is Paul’s subject in this passage, and It is that Day when Christ gathers His elect just as Paul mentioned in the opening verse. It is also that Day in which the man of sin is destroyed just as Paul stated in this passage. It is only when one tries to force a false dichotomy between the two that one enters into error in understanding how the rapture happens at the dawn of the Day of The Lord. The falling away fits because Paul links it specifically with the revealing of the man of sin, so it is not merely apostasy. It is apostasy at the time the man of sin is revealed.