The Doctrine of Hell

[Hentenza]

I have read from many that the doctrine of hell portrays God as a cruel and barbaric God. Many see this doctrine as God torturing many for eternity. I will posit that this is not the case. Unbelievers in general have questioned both hell's existence and justice and even some flavors of Christians have done the same. However, mainstream orthodox Christians have defended the reality and equity of hell. We see this both historically and biblically.

Now, a good many believe in the Dante's version of hell and ignore the biblical version. I wrote the below for a sweet, dear member that needed to hear the difference.

Scripture never describes hell as a torture chamber where people are forced against their will to undergo agonizing pain. This rendition was actually created by unbelievers to paint God as cruel and perpetuated by legalists and zealots. That a loving God will not torture anyone does not mean that hell is not a place of torment. Jesus said that it is (Luke 16:24), however, unlike torture, which is inflicted against one's will, torment is self inflicted by one's own will.

We can be condemn by our own freedom. Torment is living with the consequences of our own bad choices. Torment is the anguish that results from realizing we used our freedom for evil and chose wrongly. Everyone in hell will know that the pain he/she suffers is self-induced, hence, the 'weeping and the gnashing of teeth" (Matt 22:13).

Hell is also described as a place of eternal fire. The fire is real, but not necessarily physical (at least not as we understand the word) because people in hell will have imperishable physical bodies (John 5:28-29), so normal fire will not affect them. Also, the figures of speech that describe hell are contradictory if taken in a strict physical sense. For example, hell has flames and yet it is outer darkness. Hell is a dump (with a bottom) and yet is a bottomless pit. Everything in the bible is literally true but not everything is true literally.

Ok, lets discuss this with the love of Christ and the charity that He commands us.

 

[Dark_Lite]

however, unlike torture, which is inflicted against one's will, torment is self inflicted by one's own will.

I think that's a dangerous statement to make.

 

[Hentenza]

I think that's a dangerous statement to make.

Why? Can you please elaborate?

 

[Dark_Lite]

Why? Can you elaborate?

The only objective difference you are positing between torment and torture is that one is a result of a free choice.

If someone makes a choice or choices that lead them into a situation where they are inflicted with great suffering at the hands of another person or being, it is only "torment," and not torture? Do you see where this is going?

 

[Hentenza]

The only objective difference you are positing between torment and torture is that one is a result of a free choice.

If someone makes a choice or choices that lead them into a situation where they are inflicted with great suffering at the hands of another person or being, it is only "torment," and not torture? Do you see where this is going?

I would agree that earthly torment could equal torture, however, that would be in error when assuming that earthly torment is the same as the self inflicted torment in hell. There is no biblical support that God tortures those in hell.

 

[Dark_Lite]

I would agree that earthly torment could equal torture, however, that would be in error when assuming that earthly torment is the same as the self inflicted torment in hell. There is no biblical support that God tortures those in hell.

Then what happens in hell?

 

[Hentenza]

Then what happens in hell?

Eternal separation from God. That's horrifying enough, don't you think? Imagine if you can the self torment and agonizing regret that will occur when faced with this reality.

 

[Stryder06]

Couple of things:

First: Where do you get that sinners will not be affected by fire? The verse you provided says that some will rise to live and other will rise to be condemned. Only the righteous are seen being changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Second: The torment part I can agree with in the sense that everyone that burns will know exactly why and realize that it was by their own choice that this punishment has been allotted to them. This however does not take away from the fact that those who are lost will be literally burned.

 

[Stryder06]

Eternal separation from God. That's horrifying enough, don't you think? Imagine if you can the self torment and agonizing regret that will occur when faced with this reality.

The things is that those who are lost have been sepearated from God their whole lives. They have constantly beaten back the Spirit of Truth in one way or another.

Not to mention that God is going to destroy sin. How can sin be no more if there are still sinful people living somewhere in this universe?

 

[Dark_Lite]

Eternal separation from God. That's horrifying enough, don't you think? Imagine if you can the self torment and agonizing regret that will occur when faced with this reality.

If we accept that hell is a place of torture inflicted upon those in it, then the danger of my statement is fully realized. However, if we accept the idea of it being eternal separation or something else similar, then there is more of a case for distinction.

I cannot accept hell as a place of actual torture on souls/bodies/whatever ontological form we take there. That does indeed make God cruel.

 

[Stryder06]

That does indeed make God cruel.

How so?

Do you think God is cruel for destroying the devil?

 

[Hentenza]

Couple of things:

First: Where do you get that sinners will not be affected by fire? The verse you provided says that some will rise to live and other will rise to be condemned. Only the righteous are seen being changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Second: The torment part I can agree with in the sense that everyone that burns will know exactly why and realize that it was by their own choice that this punishment has been allotted to them. This however does not take away from the fact that those who are lost will be literally burned.

1. They rise and live forever. A body that last forever can not literally "burn".

2. Do they burn literally or do they literally burn? There is a big difference. Also, literally burning is torture, can you show me where "torture" is used in scripture in relation to hell?

 

[Dark_Lite]

How so?

Do you think God is cruel for destroying the devil?

I think that some of the reasons that some Christians come up with to condemn people to Hell are not actual reasons on the scale of eternity.

 

[Hentenza]

The things is that those who are lost have been sepearated from God their whole lives. They have constantly beaten back the Spirit of Truth in one way or another.

Not to mention that God is going to destroy sin. How can sin be no more if there are still sinful people living somewhere in this universe?

God is going to conquer sin. Sin, not being part of creation, can not be "destroyed". How do you destroy that which was never created?

 

[Dark_Lite]

God is going to conquer sin. Sin, not being part of creation, can not be "destroyed". How do you destroy that which was never created?

If sin was never created, then how did it come about, exactly? Or are we using the word "sin" to refer to something which is not metaphysically present?

 

[Hentenza]

If we accept that hell is a place of torture inflicted upon those in it, then the danger of my statement is fully realized. However, if we accept the idea of it being eternal separation or something else similar, then there is more of a case for distinction.

I cannot accept hell as a place of actual torture on souls/bodies/whatever ontological form we take there. That does indeed make God cruel.

Again, eternal separation does cause self torment, do you agree? I agree that there is no torture in hell since that would conflict with some of God's attributes.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Again, eternal separation does cause self torment, do you agree?

A torment in some sense, yes.

 

[Hentenza]

If sin was never created, then how did it come about, exactly? Or are we using the word "sin" to refer to something which is not metaphysically present?

This thread is for the doctrine of hell not the doctrine of sin. I really don't want to derail the thread.

 

[Hentenza]

A torment in some sense, yes.

In what sense?

 

[Stryder06]

1. They rise and live forever. A body that last forever can not literally "burn".

I don't see that in the bible. The rise to judgment. God won't punish them until they are judged, and then the second death.

2. Do they burn literally or do they literally burn? There is a big difference. Also, literally burning is torture, can you show me where "torture" is used in scripture in relation to hell?

What would that difference be?

And it's not torture. It's punishment. One that is reserved for the Devil and his angels. God isn't going to change His method of punishment simply because it doesn't sit right with us. The lawbreaker is subject to the punishment deemed fitting by the Law Giver.

Out of those who are lost, some will be beat with many stripes and others with few. In other words, some people will burn for a longer time while others will burn up quickly.