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Featured The Difference Between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Jul 7, 2017.

  1. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi BABerean,

    We both agree that God made a new Covenant -
    1. For us, the Body of Christ we are told -
    `But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God - and righteousness and sanctification and redemption...` (1 Cor. 1: 30)

    2. However for Israel, those that turn to Christ at His coming to deliver them, God says -
    `I will put my laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God and they (the house of Israel, v. 8) will be my people.` (Heb. 8: 10)

    Same new covenant of promised salvation through Christ but outworked differently to the two groups. One is a heavenly group and the other an earthly one.

    regards, Marilyn.
     
  2. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For your edification, review the following:

    By Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

    Ariel Ministries

    There are certain key distinctions in the Scriptures. If one does not understand these biblical distinctions, the Scriptures become contradictory because one part of the Bible says “you may” and another says “you may not” concerning the very same subject. One of these key biblical distinctions is the one between Israel and the Church. In the Bible, Israel is represented as the “Wife of Jehovah,” whereas the Church is represented as the “Bride of the Christ (Messiah).” A failure to maintain that distinction will only result in a misinterpretation of what the Scriptures teach.

    Israel: The Wife of Jehovah

    The relationship of Israel as the Wife of Jehovah is viewed throughout the Scriptures in various ways and facets. This relationship can be broken down into six distinct stages.

    Stage One - The Marriage Contract: The entire format of the Book of Deuteronomy is that of both an ancient treaty and an ancient marriage contract. In this book, Moses took all the various facets of the three earlier books and presented them in the form of an ancient marriage contract. In this book we find the marriage contract signed between Israel and God whereby Israel becomes the Wife of Jehovah.

    There are key passages that demonstrate how the Book of Deuteronomy fits into the scheme of a marriage contract. The first passage is found in Deuteronomy 5:1-3, which declares that God entered into a covenant with His people Israel at Mount Sinai. As it will be seen later in the study, the Jewish prophets always viewed this covenant-relationship as a marriage contract. In Deuteronomy 6:10-15, God announces His jealousy over His Wife, Israel: You shall fear Jehovah your God; and him shall you serve, and shall swear by his name. You shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the peoples that are round about you; for Jehovah your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; lest the anger of Jehovah your God be kindled against you, and he destroy you from off the face of the earth (Deut. 6:13-15).In this passage, Israel is warned against committing adultery through the worship of other gods because God’s burning jealousy will be kindled against her and will eventually cause her expulsion out of the Land.

    Ezekiel is one example of the Jewish prophets who viewed this covenant-relationship as a marriage contract: Now when I passed by you, and looked upon you, behold, your time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over you, and covered your nakedness: yea, I swore unto you, and entered into a covenant with you, says the Lord Jehovah, and you became mine (Ezekiel 16:8).Stage Two - The Great Adultery: Several Old Testament prophets described Israel’s great adultery. Jeremiah 3:1-5 shows Israel being guilty of playing the harlot with many lovers and in verse 3:20 Israel is compared to a wife who has turned away from her husband. Israel was a wife guilty of adultery: Surely, as a wife treacherously departs from her husband, So have you dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel, says Jehovah.According to Jeremiah 31:32, the original marriage contract was broken because of this adultery: ... not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, said Jehovah.A long passage in chapter 16 of Ezekiel also describes this great adultery (Ezekiel 16:15-34), and Hosea 2:2-5 declares the charge God had against Israel: she was guilty of harlotry.

    Stage Three - The Separation: Because of this adultery, a separation took place between God and Israel in the days of Isaiah. In Isaiah 50:1 God spoke to the prophet stating that God had not yet divorced His Wife. If God had divorced her, He would have given her a bill of divorcement; and since no such bill of divorcement was in hand, it meant that a divorce had not taken place. This separation lasted approximately one hundred years.

    Stage Four - The Divorce: The one hundred years of separation failed to produce repentance in Israel and finally God had no other choice but to issue the bill of divorcement on the grounds of adultery. This bill of divorcement is contained in Jeremiah 3:6-10. To a great extent, almost all of Jeremiah can be declared to be God’s bill of divorcement of Israel, but especially this passage in chapter three.

    Stage Five - The Punishment: Several Old Testament prophecies speak of the punishment of Israel for her unfaithfulness: Ezekiel 16:35-43 and Hosea 2:6-13 are two examples. The aim of this punishment is not simply so that God could be vengeful toward Israel, but rather to cause her to stop sinning and to stop her adulteries (Ezekiel 16:43). Also, the purpose of the punishment is to show Israel her need for her true husband and not for her false lovers (Hosea 2:7b). Although God has a long program of punishment for Israel’s sins, throughout the period of punishment there is a continual call to repentance. This call is presented in Jeremiah 3:11-18.

    Stage Six - The Remarriage with Restored Blessings: The Jewish prophets did not leave things hopeless. They spoke of a coming day when Israel will again become the restored Wife of Jehovah. This will require a brand-new marriage contract, which is found in Jeremiah 31:31-34. What is often known as the new covenant is in many respects a new marriage contract that God will make with both the houses of Israel and Judah. This new covenant of marriage will be necessary because the old marriage covenant was broken. This remarriage contract is also described in Ezekiel 16:60-63. According to Ezekiel, God will enter into an everlasting covenant with Israel in the future.

    The restoration of Israel as Jehovah’s Wife is also described in Isaiah 54:1-8, and the remarriage is further described in Isaiah 62:4-5. Hosea, who had much to say about the adulteries of Israel, also spoke of Israel’s reunion with her husband. Hosea 2:14-23 describes the courtship and the wooing in the wilderness and shows the four results of this reunion.

    The Church: The Bride of the Messiah

    What God has to say about the Church and her relationship as the Bride of the Messiah is radically different from what has been said regarding Israel as the Wife of Jehovah. The Bride of the Messiah is the universal body of true believers. The “local church” is that portion of the universal Church living in a specific geographical area. But the Bride of the Messiah is not limited to some local church somewhere nor is it limited to any specific denomination. It is composed of all believers regardless of their geographical location and denominational affiliation.

    There are four key passages of the New Testament that speak concerning the relationship of the Church as the Bride of the Messiah. It must be kept in mind, however, that the Church is pictured today as an engaged Bride who is not yet joined by marriage to her husband.

    The Espousal - II Corinthians 11:2: For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy: for I espoused you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ.Speaking to the local church found in the city of Corinth, Paul declares that by means of evangelism, they were espoused ... to one husband for the purpose of eventually being presented as a pure virgin to Christ. Unlike Israel, who was guilty of adultery, when the union comes between the Messiah and the Church, the Church will be presented as a pure virgin.

    The Process of Sanctification or Maturing of the Bride - Ephesians 5:25-27: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it; that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.The purpose of the death of the Messiah in His relationship with the Church is that He might sanctify her. This is necessary in order for the Church to be presented as a pure virgin as pictured in II Corinthians 11:2.

    The Church is sanctified by a continual washing in the water of the Word of God. The Holy Spirit is working in the Church so that the true Church is slowly being conformed to the Word of God. The water in this passage is not water baptism but a description of the Word of God in its cleansing ministry. The aim of this process of sanctification and cleansing of the Church is that the Church might be presented a glorious virgin to the Messiah.

    The Marriage - Revelation 19:6-9: The Jewish wedding system that was common in Yeshua’s day had four distinct stages, which are found in the relationship of the Church as the Bride of Messiah. In the first stage, the father of the groom makes the arrangement for the bride and pays the bride price. In this case, the bride price was the blood of the Messiah. This was described earlier in Ephesians 5:25 27. While the first stage has already been completed, the other three stages are still future. The second stage is the fetching of the Bride. Just as a long period of time could transpire between the first and second stages in the Jewish system, so it has been with the Church. Two thousand years have passed since the first stage was accomplished. However, someday the second stage will take place when the Messiah will come in order to fetch the Bride to His home. This fetching of the Bride is referred to today as the Rapture of the Church, and is described in I Thessalonians 4:13-18.

    The third stage of the Jewish wedding system is the marriage ceremony to which only a few are invited. The marriage ceremony will take place in Heaven just prior to the Second Coming of the Messiah at the end of the Tribulation, and the ones who will be present are only those in Heaven at that time. This is described in Revelation 19:6-8.

    The fourth stage is the marriage feast described in Revelation 19:9: And he said unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said unto me, These are true words of God.Since many are bidden or invited to come to the marriage feast, this passage indicates that it will be at a different place than the marriage ceremony. We know from the Word of God that the Old Testament saints are not resurrected with the Church before the Tribulation; they are resurrected at the end of the Tribulation (Dan. 12:2). John the Baptist, who was the last of the Old Testament prophets, called himself a friend of the bridegroom and did not consider himself to be a member of the Bride of the Messiah, the Church (Jn. 3:27-30). Hence, the “many” who are bidden [to attend] the marriage supper on earth are all the Old Testament saints and the Tribulation saints resurrected after the Second Coming of Messiah.

    While the marriage ceremony will take place in Heaven just before the Second Coming of the Messiah, the marriage feast will take place on earth after the Second Coming of the Messiah. In fact, it would seem that the marriage feast is what begins the Millennium or Messianic Age; the Church’s co-reigning with the Messiah will start with a tremendous marriage feast!

    The Eternal Abode of the Bride - Revelation 21:9-22:5: The final picture that the Scriptures give of the Bride of the Messiah is contained in the closing chapters of the Bible itself. In Revelation 21:9, John states: And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were laden with the seven last plagues; and he spoke with me, saying, Come hither, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.In this passage, the bride is now the married wife. In the following verses (Rev. 21:10-22:5), there is a graphic description of the glorious, eternal wife of the Lamb in her eternal abode.

    Conclusion

    While the distinction between Israel and the Church is maintained in various ways throughout the Bible, this is one of the more picturesque. However, if one makes the Wife of Jehovah (Israel) and the Bride of the Messiah (the Church) one and the same thing, he is faced with numerous contradictions because of the different descriptions given. Only when the two separate entities are seen: Israel as the Wife of Jehovah and the Church as the Bride of the Messiah, do all such contradictions vanish.


    Quasar92
     
  3. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi Quasar,

    Thank you for Dr. A. Fruchtenbaum`s comments. I would say that there is a missing stage. There needs to be the actual fulfilment of the prophesied remarriage. Where do we see God revealing His remarriage to Israel in the New Testament?

    regards, Marilyn.
     
  4. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi Marilyn.

    When Jesus returns in His second coming and reconciles Israel to Yahweh, as recorded in Zech.12:10 to the end of the chapter.


    Quasar92
     
  5. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    It appears that Zechariah 12:10 fulfilled in acts 2
    And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirita of grace and supplication. They will look onb me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

    Acts 2:14-17
    “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17“ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

    Acts 2:36-40
    Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
     
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    From the old testament even until a little after the crucifixion, this appears so. But it seems that Paul makes a different argument that is a result of the cross. That all, Jew and Gentile, are one in the body of Christ.

    Galatians 3:26-29
    26So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
     
  7. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi Quasar,

    Yes I agree that is when Israel will again be connected to God through Jesus. However we should see a fulfilment in Revelation as it concerns when the Lord returns to deliver Israel from its enemies.

    `The 24 elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshipped God who sat on the throne....and I heard as it were, the voice of a great multitude,......saying....

    "Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." And to her was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints.

    Then he said to me, "Write: Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!` (Rev. 19: 7 - 9)

    There we see the 24 elders, representing the Body of Christ, plus the great multitude from the trib, all giving praise to God for it is the time for the Lord to be connected again to Israel, symbolically the wife.

    Those who can go to the supper of the Lamb, are the `sheep nations` who looked after the Jews through out the trib.

    regards, Marilyn.
     
  8. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi claninja,

    That is a partial fulfilment, but God did not again marry His wife, Israel then. The whole nation will be connected to God again through Jesus. Note Joel talks of the former rain and the latter rain. (Joel 2: 23 & 24) Also after the northern army (the Russian Federation) is dealt with then -

    `It shall come to pass afterwards that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh......` (Joel 2: 28)

    regards, Marilyn.
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You have ripped Hebrews 8:10 out of its context in an attempt to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.
    The verse is clearly not waiting on a future fulfillment, since Hebrews 8:6 and Hebrews 8:13 were written in the present tense during the first century.


    The verse is found fulfilled below.


    Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 
    Rom_2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


    2Co_3:3  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.



    Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 
    (Present tense during the first century.)

    Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 
    Heb 8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— 
    Heb 8:9  NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 
    Heb 8:10  FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 
    (The Upper-case text comes straight from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

    The verse above is also found fulfilled in the verse below.

    (Joh 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.) 

    Heb 8:11  NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 
    Heb 8:12  FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 
    Heb 8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. 
    (The Old Covenant had already been made "obsolete" by the New Covenant at the time Hebrews 8 was written. This was written just a few years before 70AD. There was no trace of it left after the temple was destroyed.)

    .
     
  10. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi BABerean,

    So is this for you? `I will put my laws in their mind and write them on their hearts. ` (Jer.31: 34)

    Marilyn.
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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  12. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Hi Marilyn,

    according to Paul it is. It is the covenant made with the body of Christ (Jew and gentile)

    Romans 2:14-15 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

    Hebrews 10:14-17 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
     
  13. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Day of the Lord...Re Zech.12:

    Joel 2:28 “And afterward,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
    Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your old men will dream dreams,
    your young men will see visions.
    29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
    30 I will show wonders in the heavens
    and on the earth,
    blood and fire and billows of smoke.
    31 The sun will be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood
    before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
    32 And everyone who calls
    on the name of the Lord will be saved;
    for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
    there will be deliverance,
    as the Lord has said,
    even among the survivors
    whom the Lord calls."

    Peter repeated it in the following:

    Acts 2:17 “‘In the last days, God says,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
    Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your young men will see visions,
    your old men will dream dreams.
    18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
    and they will prophesy.
    19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
    and signs on the earth below,
    blood and fire and billows of smoke.
    20 The sun will be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood
    before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
    21 And everyone who calls
    on the name of the Lord will be saved."

    The Day of the Lord Joel prophecied above, has not yet been fulfilled:
    Peter said it had been, but the Day of the Lord, is the tribulation, yet to take place. The return of Jesus in His second coming must take place first.

    Jerusalem’s Enemies to Be Destroyed

    Zech.12:1 "A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.
    The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

    6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

    7 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem."

    Mourning for the One They Pierced
    10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives."


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  14. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    This is confusing wording. It sounds like you stated that peter says it was fulfilled, but you are saying peter is wrong and it has not been fulfilled yet.
     
  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Hi Marilyn,

    I would disagree, As I believe the Gentiles were grafted into the kingdom of God, making the Gentiles and Jews one body, which is Christ's. And this one new flesh is the heir of the promises of Abraham.
    And "the last day" that is prophesied is the last day of the old covenant that ushered in the new covenant (New heavens and New Earth).

    Acts 2:15-17
    These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:17“ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.


    Hebrews 1:2
    2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
     
  16. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi claninja,

    The Gentiles are grafted in to Christ. He is the holy root that nourishes us. Nothing else can do that. Note, Christ is the heir of all things. We have a part, & Israel has a part and the nations also have a part - of the kingdom.

    regards, Marilyn.
     
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  17. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi claninja,

    Romans 2: 14 - 15 is referring to those who are not saved, but have a conscience from God to know what is right and wrong.

    Hebrews 10: 14 - 17 is referring to Israel when the Lord addresses their hearts.

    Marilyn.
     
  18. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely agree
     
  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    So believing gentiles don't have the law written on their hearts?

    The tense in the verbs portray that it happened during the time of the author of Hebrews
     
  20. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The prophecy in Joel that Peter repeated in Acts 2, is an end time prophecy as is easily determined from a reading of Joel 2, as I wrote in post #173.

    Peter said the prophecy was fulfilled during the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. He was right in part, but Joel's prophecy is for an end days fulfillment at the second coming of Christ, recorded in Zech.12, at the end of the tribulation. As such, I leave it up to you to decide the validity of Peter's remark. It is not really all that important.


    Quasar92


    Quasar92
     
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