The Difference Between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ

[BABerean2]

*First of all, Corinthians was written by Paul before Revelation, who did not have knowledge of the contents of Revelation at the time of his writing Corinthians.
*Secondly, the 7th trumpet in Revelation is part of a series of God's judgments on the earth.

Do you think the Bible was written by men?

Who directed men of God to record the scripture that we now have?

Can you show us an 8th trumpet in the Book of Revelation?


The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.
The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, the Church does not come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.

This is confirmed by those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant, the Pretrib Rapture/Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart.

Nobody is going to be saved during a future time period outside of the New Covenant Church.
There is no Plan B.

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[claninja]

You might as well talk to a wall. Its a pointless waste of time in arguing with them. They completely miss the big picture.
Some incorrectly lock on to the idea that the "last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the 7th trumpet in Revelation. This just shows how Scripturally "incompetent" some people are, which is the best way to describe it.
*First of all, Corinthians was written by Paul before Revelation, who did not have knowledge of the contents of Revelation at the time of his writing Corinthians.
*Secondly, the 7th trumpet in Revelation is part of a series of God's judgments on the earth.

I would think those two points by themselves would cause any sane individual to question the logic of equating them as being the same trumpet and instead look elsewhere in Scripture. Never mind the argument of pre, mid, post tribulation, or no rapture, this is about basic hermeneutics and common sense. Without these, they're nothing more than a bunch of parrots simply parroting Scripture on cue without really understanding it. They like to think they do, but if they can't use simple reasoning as illustrated in the above two points, how could anyone expect them to be taken seriously, much less waste time in arguing with them?

incompetent parrots. Should fellow believers and children of God really be called that? None of us are righteous or deserving of anything, so let's not throw out insults. Let's be gentle with one another 2 Timothy 2:24-25. In regards to the 7th trumpet I can agree with your assessment that it may not be the last trumpet, for The last trumpet is sounded when death, the last enemy, is fully subjected to Christ, resulting in the resurrection of believers and kingdom being given over to the Father.

 

[Postvieww]

You might as well talk to a wall. Its a pointless waste of time in arguing with them. They completely miss the big picture.
Some incorrectly lock on to the idea that the "last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the 7th trumpet in Revelation. This just shows how Scripturally "incompetent" some people are, which is the best way to describe it.
*First of all, Corinthians was written by Paul before Revelation, who did not have knowledge of the contents of Revelation at the time of his writing Corinthians.
*Secondly, the 7th trumpet in Revelation is part of a series of God's judgments on the earth.

I would think those two points by themselves would cause any sane individual to question the logic of equating them as being the same trumpet and instead look elsewhere in Scripture. Never mind the argument of pre, mid, post tribulation, or no rapture, this is about basic hermeneutics and common sense. Without these, they're nothing more than a bunch of parrots simply parroting Scripture on cue without really understanding it. They like to think they do, but if they can't use simple reasoning as illustrated in the above two points, how could anyone expect them to be taken seriously, much less waste time in arguing with them?

Waterwerx said: First of all, Corinthians was written by Paul before Revelation, who did not have knowledge of the contents of Revelation at the time of his writing Corinthians. I am assuming you believe as most Christians do the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit, what does your above argument have to do with anything. If Paul's writing and John's writing came from the Holy Spirit, it matters not who knew what when in their own human intellect.

 

[klutedavid]

Have you ever stopped to think what the Scriptures tell us where believers go after the death of our bodies? Where are we going when our body dies?

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, IMO, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the tribulation. He will return for all of us who belong to Him, still alive here on earth, at His appearing, according to Jn.14:2-4 and 1 Thes.4:14-18. All those who have died in Him, go to be with Him in heaven, immediately after their physical death, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8. Beginning with Pentecost, they are seen returning with Him from heaven, in 1 Thes.4:14, when He returns for all of us who belong to Him, left here on earth alive at His appearing in the clouds of the sky. Beginning with Jn.14:2-4 and 28, He returns to take us with Him, back to our Father in heaven. As recorded in 1 Thes.4:17, when we will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them [all those who previously died in Him] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

"In my Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me, that you also may be where I am." Vs.3."And you know the way to where I am going." Jn.14:2-4.

And where did Jesus tell them He was going? "You heards me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me , you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." Vs 28. Confirmed in Jn.16:10, 17 and 28.

The important fact in the above to keep in mind is, that it cannot possibly take place when Jesus returns in His Second Coming to the earth. Because, in the above passage, He returns for all those who belong to Him, bringing with Him all those who had fallen asleep [Died] in Him from heaven, AND RETURNS WITH THEM ALL TO OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN!

The above passage is reinforced by Paul, in 1 Thes.4:14-18, alluding to, "will be CAUGHT UP/RAPTURED together with them [The dead in Christ] to meet the Lord in the clouds of the air, in vs 17." Vs 14 refers to God bringing with Jesus, all those who previously died in Him, and are with Him in the clouds of the air, when all of us who belong to Christ, left here on the earth alive at His appearing, meet Him, together with them, in the clouds of the air. Where in vs 15, Paul reveals the entire event is ACCORDING TO THE LORD'S OWN WORD, which is directly from Jn.14:2-4 and 28. The only place in the Scriptures Jesus taught the believers in Him then, what we refer to today as the rapture of the Church.

How does the above teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church by Jesus, Paul and John, differ from His Second Coming to the earth? Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth, with His entire Church, [After the marriage to His Bride, the Church, in heaven, in Rev.19:7-9] [as well as in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14], in His armies from heaven, as well as His angels, recorded in Mt.24:30-31. He will return to fight the battle of Armageddon first, to defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them, in Rev.19:11-20. He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky in His second coming, as He will in the rapture, nor does He return to heaven with them, as He will at the rapture of the Church! But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.12:10 and Zech.14. Then Satan will be thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, then to administer the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6, bringing peace to the entire earth.

He will then establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth. NOTICE that Jesus DOES NOT return to heaven at any time after He sets foot on the Mount of Olives [Zech.14:5] in His Second Coming, until God has created the new heaven and earth, in Rev.21:1, as seen in verses 22-23.Jesus testimony about His Second Coming to the earth, in Mt.24:30-31:"At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. [At the end of the seven years of tribulation]. [Confirming Zech.12:10-13] Israel in particular, because they will then recognize Jesus as their Messiah FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME. While the rest of the world will finally realize Jesus is who He said He was, the Son of God. You will not see any mourning when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky at the rapture of the Church, when He calls up all those who belong to Him, left here on the earth alive, before the seven year tribulation begins. But rather, great rejoicing will take place!

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather His ELECT [Jesus is addressing Israel, not the Church which did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Vs 30-31. The angels will gather His ELECT, in Mt.24:31, from the four winds [ISRAEL], from one end of the heavens to the other [THE RAPTURED CHURCH], in His second coming,- confirming Ez.34:11-16, meaning, the Jewish people from all over the entire world. Take notice: No one meets the Lord in the clouds of the sky, here. Nor does does He return from the clouds of the sky with us, to our Father in heaven, as the Scriptures reveal He will in Jn.14:2-4 and 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, at the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Nor does Jesus remain in the clouds of the sky, but will take us to our Father in heaven.

Jesus will return in His second coming, to the earth, where He will remain to establish His 1,000 year kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. Jesus Olivet Discourse, recorded in Mt.24; Mk.13 and in Lk.21, pertains to His second coming to the earth and has nothing whatever to do with the Church. Because the ministry during His first advent was exclusively to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 as well as in 10:5-6. The Church did not exist until the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9. It was in response to the questions His disciples had asked Him in Mt.24:3, "...when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age." Which He clearly revealed to them, completely through the seven year tribulation to the signs of His coming and of His actual arrival, in Mt.24:30-31 on the Mount of Olives, according to Zech.14:4-5.

The "second coming" is found in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14; where you find Jesus returning with all His angels in Mt.24:30-31 and His entire Church following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in Rev.19:14 [A sign of the righteous acts of the saints, as found in Rev.19:8, NIV], in His armies from heaven. Which makes it quite impossible for any such thing as a post-trib rapture.The entire text by Jesus, from Mt.24:4-31 is an amplification of Dan.9:27, where God has decreed Israel to go through the 70th and final week/the seven year tribulation. Which the Church will not go through, according to 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. The antichrist is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, the very same person found in Dan.7:23-27; 8:9-12 and in 9:27, confirmed by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8, that immediately follow the pre-trib rapture of the Church, recorded in 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8.

There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, when Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, as He promised us, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. And Paul in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8. Confirming Dan.9:27. [The latter confirms who the antichrist is, his triggering the 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation and the timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:3-4].

From another source: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-DifferencesBetweenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92

Hello Quasar.

You mentioned the following verse.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8

I read this verse you quoted differently to the way you read this verse.

2 Corinthians 5
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

While we are comfortable with our life we are absent from the Lord.

While we are suffering for Christ then we are certainly not at home in the body.

I do not see these verses as saying, that when you are dead then you are with the Lord.

 

[Quasar92]

Please! There's no way you can conclude that your interpretation is correct and mine wrong because the verses on Samuel is an exception. That's ridiculous and again one-sided. It proves your theory wrong, that death is not being absent from the body and present with God. And I already explained to other controversial verses to you.

The scriptures are not without fault. And all of scripture has to align. You can't say it's this way, and have an exception. That's illogical. It's either one way or the other.

Review the following Scripture tht refute Your attempt yo sell us soul sleep:

Ecc.12:7: 1 Cor.15:44, 50; 2 Cor.5:6-8; 1 Thess.4:14; Lk.16:19-25;23:46; 2 Pet.3:18-20; Rev.6:9-11 and Rev.7:9-17.

Where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?

From the same place that C.I. Scofield got his D.D...

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[precepts]

Review the following Scripture tht refute Your attempt yo sell us soul sleep:

Ecc.12:7: 1 Cor.15:44, 50; 2 Cor.5:6-8; 1 Thess.4:14; Lk.16:19-25;23:46; 2 Pet.3:18-20; Rev.6:9-11 and Rev.7:9-17.

Where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?


Quasar92

You people aren't for real. Real people have understanding, and not prejudices. There's no such thing as an exception when it comes to death. You are denying Christ own words, which is so stiff-necked.

 

[Waterwerx]

Waterwerx said: First of all, Corinthians was written by Paul before Revelation, who did not have knowledge of the contents of Revelation at the time of his writing Corinthians. I am assuming you believe as most Christians do the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit, what does your above argument have to do with anything. If Paul's writing and John's writing came from the Holy Spirit, it matters not who knew what when in their own human intellect.

It has everything to do with it. All Scripture was divinely inspired by God, but this fact does not eliminate the importance of "who physically wrote it & when", "who is being addressed", etc., in regards to understanding and interpreting Scripture. Neglecting to study and learn this while at the same time trying to teach it results in incompetence, period. If this wasn't the case, none of the Bible Colleges and numerous published exegeticals/commentaries would bother stressing those topics.
The authorship of the Bible by the Holy Spirit does not equate to you being able to pick whatever Scriptures you want and tying them together just because it "sounds good" to you.

 

[Waterwerx]

Can you show us an 8th trumpet in the Book of Revelation?

Revelation 1:10-11 ,
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,..."
Revelation 4:1 ,
"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 ,
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Can you show us what the 7th trumpet(judgment) and the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 have in common besides being a trumpet and being the "last" in a sequence? I didn't think so. Beyond that, they have absolutely nothing in common. You can't link them both together and say they are the same thing while ignoring the rest of Scripture regarding trumpets and their uses.
Given the above passage from 1 Thessalonians, its obvious there is a 2-part sequential event involving the assembly of the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain(i.e. 2 groups), which is a more plausible explanation of there being a reference to a last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 regarding those who are still alive since they will be the last group assembled to Him within that sequence. The 7 trumpets in Revelation involve a sequence of judgments upon the earth and have nothing to do with 1 Corinthians 15:52.

 

[Waterwerx]

incompetent parrots. Should fellow believers and children of God really be called that? None of us are righteous or deserving of anything, so let's not throw out insults. Let's be gentle with one another 2 Timothy 2:24-25. In regards to the 7th trumpet I can agree with your assessment that it may not be the last trumpet, for The last trumpet is sounded when death, the last enemy, is fully subjected to Christ, resulting in the resurrection of believers and kingdom being given over to the Father.

Its not about righteousness or deserving, I'm giving an accurate description of what it is. When all a person can do is parrot Scripture without understanding it, they're not going to be able to competently apply it. It's like with anything else, you can learn and learn and learn, and keep on learning, but if you don't understand it, what purpose is it going to serve if you can't apply any of it correctly?

 

[Marilyn C]

Duplicate post, my apologies. But still wanted to say, Marilyn your posts are so refreshing to read.

Hi claninja,

That is so kind of you and very encouraging. I do so pray that what I post is the truth with the right attitude. (Truth in love, Eph. 4: 15) I have been taught by very good teachers back in the `60`s and some things are different from what others believe. However I do hope people will at least look into what is being said.

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

During the first few years that the Church existed it was made up mainly of Israelites.

What were the Gentiles grafted into in Romans 11?

In Romans 11 Paul uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite and Gentile branches grafted together into one tree.

The Church as a whole has never been a Gentile Church.
Even today the Church continues to be made up of both Israelite and Gentile bloodlines.
I have had Christians in my home for Bible study that came from a Jewish background.
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Hi BABerean,

The Olive Tree as God`s word reveals is Christ Himself. He is the `holy root,` He is the one that `nourishes` us.

`...if the root is holy, so are the branches,......partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree........remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.` (Rom. 11: 16 - 18)

It is in Christ that the Body of Christ is `grafted` into, and this will also be true of Israel.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Here we find the promise of the New Covenant from Jeremiah 31:31-34 repeated word-for-word and bracketed by verses making it clear that this New Covenant had been fulfilled by Christ during the first century.

Heb 12:22　 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,　

Heb 12:23　 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,　

Heb 12:24　 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Able..

Hi BABerean,

Yes, Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. All the blessings are through and of Him. Notice the two groups -

1. The church of the first-born, enrolled in heaven.
2. The spirits of just men (& women) made perfect. (OT saints.)

`And all these (OT saints) having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better, (great dominion) for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.(Heb. 11: 24)

Marilyn.

 

[BABerean2]

Hi BABerean,

Yes, Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. All the blessings are through and of Him. Notice the two groups -

1. The church of the first-born, enrolled in heaven.
2. The spirits of just men (& women) made perfect. (OT saints.)

`And all these (OT saints) having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better, (great dominion) for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.(Heb. 11: 24)

Marilyn.

Heb 11:16　 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.　(OT Saints)

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[claninja]

Its not about righteousness or deserving, I'm giving an accurate description of what it is. When all a person can do is parrot Scripture without understanding it, they're not going to be able to competently apply it. It's like with anything else, you can learn and learn and learn, and keep on learning, but if you don't understand it, what purpose is it going to serve if you can't apply any of it correctly?

Its not about righteousness or deserving, I'm giving an accurate description of what it is. When all a person can do is parrot Scripture without understanding it, they're not going to be able to competently apply it. It's like with anything else, you can learn and learn and learn, and keep on learning, but if you don't understand it, what purpose is it going to serve if you can't apply any of it correctly?

There are much better ways to go about it than name calling.

1 Corinthians 13:2, 4-5 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

 

[Quasar92]

From the same place that C.I. Scofield got his D.D...

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C.I. Scofield was ordained a minister of the Congregational Church in 1883. In addition to that he was an attorney Degrees are required for both!.

The question remains unanswered, where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?


Quasar92

 

[Marilyn C]

Heb 11:16　 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.　(OT Saints)

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Hi BABarean,

Yes, I agree with you, as God`s word says, the OT saints were looking `for a city that had foundations, whose builder and maker is God.` (Heb. 11: 10) We know that is the city, the New Jerusalem which awaits in heaven till God moves it to the lower heavens.

The amazing thing though, is that the Body of Christ has `a greater dominion` to serve in, the third heaven, where Christ will have His eternal seat of Power and Authority.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

The Body of Christ, in the third heaven, and the OT saints in the city lower down, will together be the rulership in God`s great kingdom under Christ`s supreme rulership over all, (under the Father).

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Heb 11:16　 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.　(OT Saints)

.

Hi BABarean,

Glad you pointed out that the OT saints desires a better country. Now `better` than what?

`These all died in faith, not having received the promises but having seen them afar off, they were assured of them, embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland.

And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 13 - 16)

So we realise that the OT saints were not looking for the promised land on earth, but a better, a heavenly country that God promised them. And that heavenly country, that city, the New Jerusalem will come down to the lower heavens from God. (Rev. 21: 2)

The Body of Christ however has been promised a `better, greater dominion` even than that - rulership with Christ in the third heaven.

1. OT saints desire a` better country,` than the one on earth. (ie. the city in the lower heavens).
2. The Body of Christ is promised a `better, greater dominion` than the city in the lower heavens.

Marilyn.

 

[Hank77]

Hi BABerean,

In Matthew we see that the Lord is talking to the people of Israel concerning their future. Jesus is the `bridegroom,` and Israel is the wife/bride.` The Body of Christ has never been the wife, and is not the bride, for scripture never says this. Israel is the only group that has ever been called the wife, the bride.

Marilyn.

Are the 12 Apostles, Paul, and others such as Timothy and Titus the Bride of Christ or the Body of Christ?

 

[BABerean2]

1. OT saints desire a` better country,` than the one on earth. (ie. the city in the lower heavens).
2. The Body of Christ is promised a `better, greater dominion` than the city in the lower heavens.

We are both promised New Jerusalem.

.