The Difference Between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ

Marilyn C

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Hi Marilyn,
Quasar92

Hi Quasar,

A lot of references there bro. So let`s have a look at them.

Israel. This reference is correct as God`s word shows.

Isaiah 54:5
For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called.


Matthew 25: 1 - 46, Mark 2: 19 & 20, John 3: 29,

These are all relating to Israel. If Jesus, who was talking to the people of Israel, really meant another group then He would have been deceitful. He would also have been a liar as He later said to Paul, that the Body of Christ had not been revealed and `not known to the sons of men,` (Eph. 3: 5) As we know that Jesus is not deceitful or a liar, then He is speaking of Israel the people He is talking to.

Revelation 19: 7 -9

This is also Israel as they are the wife (who was divorced) and then will be (re) married, (connected) to God again.

The New Jerusalem

This is the city that comes down from God. It is the eternal purpose for the OT saints. (Heb. 11) This is not the same as the earthly time purpose for the nations of Israel, being called the wife/bride. God uses the `bride` symbol for two different purposes.


The Body of Christ

Eph. 5: 25 - 27 Here we read of Paul`s exhortation to husbands to love their wives as Christ loves His own body, the body of Christ. It is not doctrinal, which he has been dealing with in the first 4 chapters of Ephesians. He does not mention anything about the church being the `bride` but actually the new man, His body - masculine head, masculine body.

2 Cor. 11: 1 - 4

To whom is Paul speaking? He is talking to his converts in Corinth. He is using an illustration of a virgin, pure, and this is what he desires for his converts. Notice that it says - `that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.` Paul does not present us to the Lord. It is the Lord who will present us to Himself. (Eph. 5: 27)

So we realize that nowhere in God`s word is the Body of Christ called the wife/bride. It has been misunderstood by many for a long time.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Marilyn,

You are reading things into my OP I have not written. I have never made any claim the church existed before Pentecost. To the contrary. I have made a number of posts here making the point of the Chuch NOT existing until after the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, as seen in Jn.7:39 and Act 2:1-3.

In Jn.14:2-3 nd 28, Jesus is prophecying to His disciples, events that pertains to all of us who are members of His body, the Church. I agree with you in that the New Jerusalem in the next age is our Father's "house," of Jn.14:2-3.

Rev.19:14 is clear reference to the Church, who are riding white horses, dressed in fine linen white and clean, as described in verse 8, in Jesus armies from heaven. Where have found angels recorded anywhere in the Bible, dressed in fine linen, white and clean? In my 80 years of Bible study, I have never found any such thing.


Quasar92

Hi Quasar,

In Jn 14: 2 - 3 the Lord is certainly telling the 12 disciples their future in the New Jerusalem but that does include us. Note those who looked for the city, (Heb. 11) the New Jerusalem they will not be made perfect without us, to whom God has provided a greater dominion, (something better). (Heb. 11: 40)

Rev. 19: 14 Well after 80 years of study (too long to have to wait) let me tell you that angels are recorded as dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

`And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, CLOTHED IN PURE AND WHITE LINEN, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.` (Rev. 15: 6)

regards, Marilyn.
 
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Quasar92

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Nice "story".



Videos with the opinion of others does not address the Scriptures proving the end time chronological order of end time events, and as such is an invalid argument against it. Either field an argument of your own with a Scriptural response refuting the Scriptures that prove the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church documented below, or your views are false.

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church


The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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Hi Quasar,

In Jn 14: 2 - 3 the Lord is certainly telling the 12 disciples their future in the New Jerusalem but that does include us. Note those who looked for the city, (Heb. 11) the New Jerusalem they will not be made perfect without us, to whom God has provided a greater dominion, (something better). (Heb. 11: 40)

Rev. 19: 14 Well after 80 years of study (too long to have to wait) let me tell you that angels are recorded as dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

`And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, CLOTHED IN PURE AND WHITE LINEN, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.` (Rev. 15: 6)

regards, Marilyn.


Hi Marilyn,

Israel is Yahwey's unfaithful wife:

https://www.enterthebible.org/Contr...ourcebox.aspx?selected_rid=766&original_id=46


The Church is the Bride of Christ::


What does it mean that the church is the bride of Christ?


Blessings


Qusar92

 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Marilyn,

Israel is Yahwey's unfaithful wife:

https://www.enterthebible.org/Contr...ourcebox.aspx?selected_rid=766&original_id=46

The Church is the Bride of Christ::


What does it mean that the church is the bride of Christ?

Blessings Quasar92

Hi Quasar,

`And it shall be, in that day, says the Lord, That you will call me "My husband" and no longer call me "My master,"......I will betroth you to me for ever; yes I will betroth you to me in righteousness and justice, in loving-kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 2: 16 & 19)

God `marries` His wife. God connects again with Israel.

Marilyn.

 
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BABerean2

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Hi Quasar,

`And it shall be, in that day, says the Lord, That you will call me "My husband" and no longer call me "My master,"......I will betroth you to me for ever; yes I will betroth you to me in righteousness and justice, in loving-kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 2: 16 & 19)

God `marries` His wife. God connects again with Israel.

Marilyn.

The Body of Christ is the Bride, based on faith in the Messiah, instead of genealogy.

God does not have two wives.

Jer 31:31  "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 
Jer 31:32  not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.


 
Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 

Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 

Heb 8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— 


Heb 8:9  NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 



1Ti 1:4  nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 

.
 
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Blade

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Well thank you..and thanks to all that share ..even if its different praise GOD! For JESUS is lord and gets all the glory. I am not pre mid or post. Well for me what I found is.. to just believe.. to take Him at His word.. and have faith that HE is FAITHFUL! He can not lie..

So I picture me with them and He says.. Hey.. I have to go.. back to my Fathers house.. but..no no no.. dont worry. for If I go I will come back and get you (thats when John slapped me on the back.. wow so hard.. it hurt. Said to me.. see.. told ya). So where I am you will be. WHERE I go you know. How I go you know.

I over time have read about never seeing the wrath of God. And there are times where I listen to all the sides of this talk. Yet.. I cant get past Lot. Well Lot was righteous. That ONE righteous man stopped the wrath of God "as long as you are here I can do nothing". Lot had to be gone. So we know the wrath of God will not just hit some cities but the WHOLE earth and ALL in it.

So.. then we see Him taken.. caught up to heaven. And we all knew everything HE ever said always happened. So.. we KNOW He will be back ANY MOMENT! Hehe.. I played a little there.. but.. how long ago did He leave? Yeah.. just over 2 days ago... So I live as if JESUS is coming back NOW! He cant lie.. HE said He will come back and get me so where He is I will be. I will never see the wrath of God. I know that greater is HE that is in me than he thats in the world. He gave me ALL power over EVERY demon EVERY fallen angel. Yet.. during the great trib.. Satan will have power over all. Unless GOD takes JESUS out of me.. that can never happen. So when I read "when it/He is taken out of the way.. that one that restrains the lawless one. I think.. who has more power then satan? Jesus.. and JESUS IS IN ME. GOD SPIRIT IS IN ME! Its also written God is IN you to work and to do.. GOD is IN YOU!

So the power we dont have is over man. But something will be taken out of the way.. and if you look up in ancient Greek "fallingaway".. the 1st meaning is "departure"..then can also mean falling away. yet you can still turn that to mean what you want. Me I dont twist it.. I take it just as it says..

So I just wanted to share.. I live as if JESUS is coming now. I was never promised tomorrow. To prepare..is wise.. but.. if you believe Jesus will come.. say in AUG or SEPT.. then you will miss Him. You are not ready. And if you dont believe.. you are free. He will never force anyone to believe to do to say anything. You have to believe. SO DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR ANYTHING. JESUS IS REAL!

I really dont see a problem here. Well He said He was going.. He said He will come back and get you. Is HE REAL or not? Do you TAKE HIM at HIS word or mans word? He is coming.. He never said when. I mean.. if He knows.. then He lied to the 12. He does not.. all He knows is it can be NOW...
 
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Marilyn C

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The Body of Christ is the Bride, based on faith in the Messiah, instead of genealogy.

God does not have two wives.
.

Hi BABerean,

There is no scripture that says the Body of Christ is the `bride.` God Himself says that He has betrothed Israel to Him for ever.` (Hosea 2: 19)

The `bride,` is a symbol that God uses to explain His relationship with Israel. He was their `husband,` they went and prostituted themselves, so God `divorces them,` but knowing that they cannot fulfil their side, He tells them that He will again `marry` connect with them. That is the picture of Hosea being told to marry a prostitute, as a picture of what God would do to Israel - connect with them again.

As to the BODY of Christ - Head & Body, there is NO greater relationship than that. Christ is our Head and we are His body.


regards, Marilyn.
 
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BABerean2

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There is no scripture that says the Body of Christ is the `bride.`

Mat 25:1  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 



Rev_21:9
  And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

.
 
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Purity Clarity Parkes

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'There is no difference between the Rapture of the church and the Second coming of the LORD Jesus Christ.. They both happen on the same day.. We shall be caught up to meet Him when he returns to rule the earth with us for 1000 years.. At the last trumpet.. Yeah the last trumpet mentioned in scripture that reveals the rapture and the same trumpet that is revealed to sound on the day of Jesus return and the Last trumpet revealed in the Book of Revelation as being the 7th trumpet sounding..'

1. What about the tribulation period?
2. The trumpet judgements are to be part of the tribulation period.
3. How does the anti-Christ arise?
Just food for the mind.
Purity Parkes.
 
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Adstar

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In the following four post link, the first post provides the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, which you have contradicted in the above claims. Opinion is meaningless and I challenge you to find by the Scriptures anything from the four posts in the link below to be false, or those of yours are. The following Link is in the website I founded in 2000 A.D.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92
Nope they do not prove anything.. There is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture.. It is a false escapist doctrine..
 
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Adstar

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'There is no difference between the Rapture of the church and the Second coming of the LORD Jesus Christ.. They both happen on the same day.. We shall be caught up to meet Him when he returns to rule the earth with us for 1000 years.. At the last trumpet.. Yeah the last trumpet mentioned in scripture that reveals the rapture and the same trumpet that is revealed to sound on the day of Jesus return and the Last trumpet revealed in the Book of Revelation as being the 7th trumpet sounding..'

1. What about the tribulation period?
2. The trumpet judgements are to be part of the tribulation period.
3. How does the anti-Christ arise?
Just food for the mind.
Purity Parkes.

The tribulation period is when followers of the anti Christ persecute true Christians and behead us for not worshipping the image of the beast and refusing the mark of the beast.. Tribulation for Christians is being persecuted because we believe and trust the LORD Jesus Christ... The end time judgement of God upon the earth are not tribulation for us.. They are His Wrath upon those who persecuted treu Christians..

So the end times can be broken up into two stages... The great tribulation when most christians shall be killed and the Wrath when God shall avenge our blood by bringing great wrath upon the people of the earth..

The Anti-christ is the small horn that rises up on the beast.. This is revealed in the Book of Daniel..

Daniel 7: KJV

{7} After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. {8} I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

The beast is an empire in this world.. And also the eventual undisputed leader of that empire
The Horns are nations and leaders ..
So in the end times there will be an empire and 10 nations within that empire will be in control of it..
But the Anti-christ will be a leader of a small nation within that empire and he will rise up and when he does 3 of the greater nations will be taken over by Him.. And the other leaders will become His puppets..

Revelation 17: KJV

12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. {13} These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast."

So keep an eye out for a group of nations where 10 of the nations are in control of them all.. And then look for a leader of a small nation coming along and wrestling control of the empire. to become to undisputed supreme leader of the Empire.. Or as we say these days Block of nations..
 
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Quasar92

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Nope they do not prove anything.. There is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture.. It is a false escapist doctrine..


The facts provided for you in the OP and in the four post link I posted for you in @19, refute you. There is nothing in your above post to support your claims with the meaningless opinion you posted. Besides calling Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul liars, who teach the pre-trib rapture of the Church, but the following esteemed theologians from every wlk of Cjristian teaching do so as well:

The pre-trib rapture of the Church views posted above fully endorsed by the following:


1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

Review the following post that refrutes your claims and either field a valid Scripturally supported argument against it verifying your claims, or your views are the ones that are wrong.


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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Nope they do not prove anything.. There is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture.. It is a false escapist doctrine..


The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92
 
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The facts provided for you in the OP and in the four post link I posted for you in @19, refute you. There is nothing in your above post to support your claims with the meaningless opinion you posted. Besides calling Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul liars, who teach the pre-trib rapture of the Church, but the following esteemed theologians from every wlk of Cjristian teaching do so as well:

The pre-trib rapture of the Church views posted above fully endorsed by the following:


1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

Review the following post that refrutes your claims and either field a valid Scripturally supported argument against it verifying your claims, or your views are the ones that are wrong.


Quasar92

If all these men do all support the pre-tribulation rapture then they are all wrong... Again there is no pre-tribulation rapture it is totally unbiblical..
 
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Quasar92

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The tribulation period is when followers of the anti Christ persecute true Christians and behead us for not worshipping the image of the beast and refusing the mark of the beast.. Tribulation for Christians is being persecuted because we believe and trust the LORD Jesus Christ... The end time judgement of God upon the earth are not tribulation for us.. They are His Wrath upon those who persecuted treu Christians..

So the end times can be broken up into two stages... The great tribulation when most christians shall be killed and the Wrath when God shall avenge our blood by bringing great wrath upon the people of the earth..

The Anti-christ is the small horn that rises up on the beast.. This is revealed in the Book of Daniel..

Daniel 7: KJV

{7} After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. {8} I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

The beast is an empire in this world.. And also the eventual undisputed leader of that empire
The Horns are nations and leaders ..
So in the end times there will be an empire and 10 nations within that empire will be in control of it..
But the Anti-christ will be a leader of a small nation within that empire and he will rise up and when he does 3 of the greater nations will be taken over by Him.. And the other leaders will become His puppets..

Revelation 17: KJV

12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. {13} These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast."

So keep an eye out for a group of nations where 10 of the nations are in control of them all.. And then look for a leader of a small nation coming along and wrestling control of the empire. to become to undisputed supreme leader of the Empire.. Or as we say these days Block of nations..


First of all, the Church age began at Pentecost and will end when it is CAUGHT UP to be with Jesus in the clouds of the sky, as recorded in 1 Thess.4:16-17. The Church consists of the one body of Christ, Born Again Christians.

There are NO Christians who will go through the tribulation. Everyone who will be left on earth when the Church DEPARTS, are non-believers. In Rev.7:1-8, God will place 144,000 Israelites on earth, who will bring the Great Multitude of Rev.7:9-17, to the Lord, DURING the tribulation. They are the same multitude as the tribulation martyrs/saints are at the FIRST resurrection, recorded in Rev.20:4 and 6. This group does not and never was any part of the DEPARTED/RAPTURED Church.

A review of 2 Thess.2-3, 7-8 and the translation history of it in my post #35 provides you with the precise timing of the rapture of the Church, before the tribulation begins.

Please explain to me how the Church got into heaven for the marriage, of the Bride/Church to he Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.19:7-8 while the tribulation takes place on earth, and are WITH Jesus when He returns in His second coming to earth. Who are riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, [A sign of the righteous acts of the saints, from verse 8] in His armies from heaven, in verse 14.


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Quasar92

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Hi Quasar,

`And it shall be, in that day, says the Lord, That you will call me "My husband" and no longer call me "My master,"......I will betroth you to me for ever; yes I will betroth you to me in righteousness and justice, in loving-kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 2: 16 & 19)

God `marries` His wife. God connects again with Israel.

Marilyn.


Hi Marilyn.

THE CHURCH IS THE BRIDE OF CHRIST - JEWISH MARRIAGE CUSTOMS

Behold, The Bridegroom Comes!

The Comforting Promise

It was a night of destiny. Jesus had gathered with His disciples in the Upper Room. In a few more hours He would be crucified on a cross. Jesus had been warning His disciples concerning His coming death, resurrection and ascension to heaven. The prospect of these events caused the disciples to be greatly disturbed. In order to ease their fears, Jesus made the following comforting promise:

Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, Believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also. (John 14:1-3.)

Jewish Marriage Customs

Those who live in the modern western world do not catch the full significance of Jesus' promise. This is due to the fact that in His promise Jesus was drawing an analogy from Jewish marriage customs in biblical times. Since this is so, those marriage customs must be examined if one is to grasp the significance of the promise.

The first major step in a Jewish marriage was betrothal.1 Betrothal involved the establishment of a marriage covenant. By Jesus' time it was usual for such a covenant to be established as the result of the prospective bridegroom taking the initiative.2 The prospective bridegroom would travel from his father's house to the home of the prospective bride. There he would negotiate with the father of the young woman to determine the price (mohar) that he must pay to purchase his bride.3 Once the bridegroom paid the purchase price, the marriage covenant was thereby established, and the young man and woman were regarded to be husband and wife.4 From that moment on the bride was declared to be consecrated or sanctified, set apart exclusively for her bridegroom.5 As a symbol of the covenant relationship that had been established, the groom and bride would drink from a cup of wine over which a betrothal benediction had been pronounced.6

After the marriage covenant had been established, the groom would leave the home of the bride and return to his father's house. There he would remain separate from his bride for a period of twelve months.7 This period of separation afforded the bride time to gather her trousseau and to prepare for married life.8 The groom occupied himself with the preparation of living accommodations in his father's house to which he could bring his bride.

At the end of the period of separation the groom would come to take his bride to live with him. The taking of the bride usually took place at night. The groom, best man and other male escorts would leave the groom's father's house and conduct a torch light procession to the home of the bride.9 Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the exact time of his coming.10 As a result the groom's arrival would be preceded by a shout.11 This shout would forewarn the bride to be prepared for the coming of the groom.

After the groom received his bride together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party would return from the bride's home to the groom's father's house.12 Upon arrival there the wedding party would find that the wedding guests had assembled already.

Shortly after arrival the bride and groom would be escorted by the other members of the wedding party to the bridal chamber (huppah). Prior to entering the chamber the bride remained veiled so that no one could see her face.13 While the groomsmen and bridesmaids would wait outside, the bride and groom would enter the bridal chamber alone. There in the privacy of that place they would enter into physical union for the first time, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier.14

After the marriage was consummated, the groom would announce the consummation to the other members of the wedding party waiting outside the chamber (John 3:29). These people would pass on the news of the marital union to the wedding guests.15 Upon receiving this good news the wedding guests would feast and make merry for the next seven days.16

During the seven days of the wedding festivities, which were sometimes called "the seven days of the huppah," the bride remained hidden in the bridal chamber.17 At the conclusion of these seven days the groom would bring his bride out of the bridal chamber, now with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was.

The Examination of the Analogy

Earlier it was stated that in His promise in John 14 Jesus drew an analogy from Jewish marriage customs in biblical times. Now that the marriage customs have been considered, it is essential that the analogy be examined. In what ways was Jesus' promise analogous with Jewish marriage customs? In the examination of the analogy the first thing that should be noted is the fact that the Scriptures regard the Church to be the Bride of Christ (Eph. 5:22-23). In addition, just as the Jewish bridegroom took the initiative in marriage by leaving his father's house and travelling to the home of the prospective bride, so Jesus left His Father's house in heaven and travelled to earth, the home of His prospective Church, over 1900 years ago.

In the same manner as the Jewish bridegroom came to the bride's home for the purpose of obtaining her through the establishment of a marriage covenant, so Jesus came to earth for the purpose of obtaining the Church through the establishment of a covenant. On the same night in which Jesus made His promise in John 14 He instituted communion. As He passed the cup of wine to His disciples, He said: "This cup is the new covenant in my blood" (1 Cor. 11:25). This was His way of saying that He would establish a new covenant through the shedding of His blood on the cross. Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom paying a price to purchase his bride, Jesus paid a price to purchase His bride, the Church. The price that He paid was His own life blood. It was because of this purchase price that Paul wrote the following to members of the Church: "know ye not that...ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and your spirit, which are God's" (1 Cor. 6:19-20).

Analogous with the Jewish bride being declared to be sanctified or set apart exclusively for her groom once the marriage covenant was established, the Church has been declared to be sanctified or set apart exclusively for Christ (Eph. 5:25-27; 1Cor. 1:2; 6:11; Heb. 10:10; 13:12).

In the same way that a cup of wine served as a symbol of the marriage covenant through which the Jewish groom obtained his bride, so the cup of communion serves as the symbol of the covenant through which Christ has obtained the Church (1 Cor. 11:25).

Just as the Jewish groom left the home of his bride and returned to his father's house after the marriage covenant had been established, so Jesus left the earth, the home of the Church, and returned to His Father's house in heaven after He had established the new covenant and risen from the dead (John 6:62; 20:17).

Corresponding with the period of separation between the Jewish groom and bride, Christ has remained separate from the Church for over 1900 years. The Church is now living in that period of separation.

Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom preparing living accommodations for his bride in his father's house during the time of separation, Christ has been preparing living accommodations for the Church in His Father's house in heaven during His separation from His Bride (John 14:2).

In the same manner as the Jewish groom came to take his bride to live with him at the end of the period of separation, so Christ will come to take His Church to live with Him at the end of His period of separation from the Church (John 14:3).

Just as the taking of the Jewish bride was accomplished by a procession of the groom and male escorts from the groom's father's house to the home of the bride, so the taking of the Church will be accomplished by a procession of Christ and an angelic escort from Christ's Father's house in heaven to the home of the Church (1 Thess. 4:16).

Analogous with the Jewish bride not knowing the exact time of the groom's coming for her, the Church does not know the exact time of Christ's coming for her.

In the same way that the Jewish groom's arrival was preceded by a shout, so Christ's arrival to take the Church will be preceded by a shout (1 Thess. 4:16).

Similar to the Jewish bride's return with the groom to his father's house after her departure from her home, the Church will return with Christ to His Father's house in heaven after she is snatched from the earth to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:17; John 14:2-3).

In the same manner as the Jewish wedding party found wedding guests assembled in the groom's father's house when they arrived, so Christ and the Church will find the souls of Old Testament saints assembled in heaven when they arrive. These souls will serve as the wedding guests.

Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom and bride entering into physical union after their arrival at the groom's father's house, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier, Christ and the Church will experience spiritual union after their arrival at His Father's house in heaven, thereby consummating their relationship that had been covenanted earlier.

Corresponding with the Jewish bride remaining hidden in the bridal chamber for a period of seven days after arrival at the groom's father's house, the Church will remain hidden for a period of seven after arrival at Christ's Father's house in heaven. While the seven year Tribulation Period is taking place on the earth, the Church will be in heaven totally hidden from the sight of those living on the earth.

Just as the Jewish groom brought his bride out of the bridal chamber at the conclusion of the seven days with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was, so Christ will bring His Church out of heaven in His Second Coming at the conclusion of the seven year Tribulation Period in full view of all who are alive, so that all can see who the true church is (Col. 3:4).

THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE ANALOGY

This analogy between Jewish marriage customs and Christ's relationship to the Church is very beautiful, but what practical significance does it have for today?

The answer to this question is twofold. First, if you have never taken Jesus Christ personally to be your Saviour from sin, it has great significance for you. Christ came to this earth and died on a cross for the purpose of paying the penalty for your sins. Through the shedding of His blood He paid the price necessary to purchase you to be part of His Bride, the Church. He thereby established a new covenant through which you can enter into a special relationship with Him.

Every time the gospel of Jesus Christ is declared to you, Christ is proposing that you enter into this special relationship with Him. In essence He is saying to you:

"I, Jesus, take thee, sinner, to be My Bride. And I do promise and covenant before God The Father and these witnesses, to be thy loving and faithful Saviour and Bridegroom; in sickness and in health, in plenty and in want, in joy and in sorrow, in faithfulness and in waywardness, for time and for eternity.18"

Just as the proposal that the Jewish bridegroom made could be accepted or rejected, so Christ's proposal to you can be accepted or rejected. If you reject it throughout this lifetime, then you never will be rightly related to Jesus Christ. The tragic result will be that you will spend eternity separated from God and Christ in the eternal lake of fire (Rev.20:11-15).

If, however, you accept Christ's proposal, then your sins will be forgiven, and you will enter into that relationship that makes you part of His Bride, the Church. In addition, you will go to be with Him when He comes to take the Church, and you will remain with Him forever in great blessing. The way in which you can accept Christ's proposal is quite simple. If you sincerely believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He came to this earth, died for your sins and rose from the dead, then respond to Him as follows:

"I, sinner, take Thee, Jesus, to be my Saviour. . . And I do promise and covenant before God and these witnesses to be Thy loving and faithful Bride; in sickness and in health, in plenty and in want, in joy and in sorrow, for time and for eternity.19"

Second, the analogy is most significant also for those who have taken Christ to be Saviour. During the time of separation between the establishment of the marriage covenant and the coming of the bridegroom to take his bride, it was possible for the Jewish bride to commit adultery by giving herself to another man.20 In like manner it is possible for believers today to commit spiritual adultery against Christ before He returns to take His Church. Paul expressed concern over this possibility when he wrote the following to Christians:

"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Cor.11:2-3).

James expressed the same concern when he rebuked Christians as follows: "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." (James 4:4) The context of James' statement indicates that spiritual adultery is committed when a believer becomes more devoted to the godless world system and the things that please it than he is to Jesus Christ and the things that please Him.

If you are a believer, honestly evaluate your devotion to Jesus Christ. Do you love him as much now as when you took Him to be your Saviour? Is He truly the Centre of your existence, the One who gives your life its meaning and purpose? Is your every attitude, action and lifestyle motivated and controlled by your devotion to Jesus Christ, or by a desire to have the friendship of the world system in which you live?

If you have been unfaithful to your heavenly Bridegroom, confess this to Him and be assured that even "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (11 Tim.2:13) Then trust the Holy Spirit to renew your devotion as you wait for your heavenly Bridegroom to come at any moment.

By Dr. Renald Showers, Chairman of the Pastoral Studies Dept. Philadelphia College of Bible (year unknown) Distributed by, The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc., W. Collingswood, N.J.


Blessings


Quasar92
 
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Review the following post that refrutes your claims and either field a valid Scripturally supported argument against it verifying your claims, or your views are the ones that are wrong.

OK.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. On the Day of Pentecost, Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36. When the Church first began, almost all of its members were Israelites. The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13. The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

Therefore, the New Covenant Church cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

This is confirmed by those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.

Why do we find members of the Church in heaven, in the Book of Revelation? They died.

The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. Paul said the branches broken off can be grafted back into the tree, through faith in Christ. There is no Plan B, outside of the Church.

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