The devil is a person?

[ebia]

Just because the O.T. doesn't give every detail about Satan does not mean Satan isn't evil or sinful.

No it doesn't, but the picture of Satan in Job is very different from that classical picture. You can try to force a round peg into a square hole, but ...

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that were not talking about whether Satan is sinful or not but something you questioned regarding Satan: You asked if "the devil really a person? Or...is "it" more a state of being?"

That was the question of the OP, not mine.

So I provided the book of Job and Zachariah as two examples why Satan is a person and not a state of being.

Both of those are compatible with Satan being a figurative way of talking about stuff. Particularly Job, which is narrative literature exploring an issue - any of its characters except God can be entirely imaginary.

My original point was that the inconsistant picture of Satan in the bible is more consistant with him being the personification of a concept or range of concepts than with him being a real figure, and that is one pointer that maybe that's the case. Just because one can show the bible talking about Satan does not mean that those passages are meant to describe a literal person; with so little data it's just about impossible to tell. One tends to talk about a fictional person in much the same terms as a real person - it tends to take a lot of data to tell the difference.

 

[RMDY]

No it doesn't, but the picture of Satan in Job is very different from that classical picture. You can try to force a round peg into a square hole, but ...

The classical picture? Can you clarify what you mean by "classical picture"?

That was the question of the OP, not mine.

Sorry

Both of those are compatible with Satan being a figurative way of talking about stuff. Particularly Job, which is narrative literature exploring an issue - any of its characters except God can be entirely imaginary.

Satan is not just "a figurative way of talking about stuff". I believe in Jesus and what he taught. The Son of God was tested by Satan in the desert. I literally believe it happened? Don't you?

 

[Adoniram]

There's a degree of variation, but there's so much material that the overarching meta-narrative shows us where the consistancy is. In the case of Satan we only get a handful of short mentions and they are starkly different. It's pretty much impossible to form a coherent image that's consistant with the character we see in Job and Zechariah, and the character we see in Matthew (say). I don't find that to be the case with God himself.

The usual Christian image seems to me to involve mostly tradition, at best consistent with what we see in the N.T., and completely at odds with how he is portrayed in Job and Zechariah. I even noticed a commentary that references Zechariah in a way that is completely at odds with what Zechariah actually says but as though it says what the N.T. says.


Is it? It's quite hard to tell the difference when one has so little to go on.

A degree of variation? That's putting it mildly. Just one degree? Not two or three degrees, or...180? LOL But, as you say, all the pieces of the puzzle fit together to present a whole picture. Granted, the Bible doesn't say nearly as much about the devil as it does about God; after all, the book is about God, not the devil. However, God gives us enough in his book to get a pretty good picture of his adversary. And the glimpse we get in Job is, IMO, totally consistent with what is presented elsewhere. What I see in Job is a creature that is yes, an accuser, but also wily, subtle, crafty, insidious.

God: "Hey Satan, where ya been?

Satan: "Oh, wandering around down there on earth."

God: "What do you think of my servant Job? He's a righteous fellow. Fears God, ya know, and shuns evil."

Satan: "Well, what do you expect? Do you think there's nothing in it for him? You have made him wealthy and put a wall around him so that nothing can harm him. Take all that away and he'll curse you to your face."

God: "OK, Satan. All that he has is in your hands. Just don't kill him."


I don't think Satan is just being chummy with God; he's baiting him. He's really pretty cunning in how he got God to remove his protection from Job. Of course, God certainly knew what was going on all along, and it all worked out for Job in the end, but not without God having to go have a good talk with him and set him straight on a few things. Similarly, Satan baited Eve in their conversation in the Garden.

Satan: "Hey, Eve, did God say you can't eat from all the trees in the Garden?"

Eve: "Well, yah... he said we could eat from any of them except for the one in the middle. He said if we eat from that one we'll die."

Satan: "Oh come on now, you won't die if you eat from it. God just doesn't want you to be like him, knowing both good and evil."

And after Adam & Eve succumbed to the devil's deceit, God had a long talk with them as well. This ties in nicely with the descriptions of Satan in 2 Cor. 11, where he is described as crafty, appearing as an angel of light, and of Eph 6:11 where he is described as wily.

Anyway, the point is that just as you have done with God, pulling a bunch of seemingly conflicting descriptions together to obtain a complete picture, when you do the same with the descriptions of Satan, they do not conflict, but rather present a fuller picture of who he is. And it presents a very real adversary, capable of stealing our very soul if we're not vigilant.

 

[ebia]

A degree of variation? That's putting it mildly. Just one degree? Not two or three degrees, or...180? LOL But, as you say, all the pieces of the puzzle fit together to present a whole picture. Granted, the Bible doesn't say nearly as much about the devil as it does about God; after all, the book is about God, not the devil. However, God gives us enough in his book to get a pretty good picture of his adversary. And the glimpse we get in Job is, IMO, totally consistent with what is presented elsewhere. What I see in Job is a creature that is yes, an accuser, but also wily, subtle, crafty, insidious.

God: "Hey Satan, where ya been?

Satan: "Oh, wandering around down there on earth."

God: "What do you think of my servant Job? He's a righteous fellow. Fears God, ya know, and shuns evil."

Satan: "Well, what do you expect? Do you think there's nothing in it for him? You have made him wealthy and put a wall around him so that nothing can harm him. Take all that away and he'll curse you to your face."

God: "OK, Satan. All that he has is in your hands. Just don't kill him."


I don't think Satan is just being chummy with God; he's baiting him. He's really pretty cunning in how he got God to remove his protection from Job. Of course, God certainly knew what was going on all along, and it all worked out for Job in the end, but not without God having to go have a good talk with him and set him straight on a few things. Similarly, Satan baited Eve in their conversation in the Garden.

Satan: "Hey, Eve, did God say you can't eat from all the trees in the Garden?"

Eve: "Well, yah... he said we could eat from any of them except for the one in the middle. He said if we eat from that one we'll die."

Satan: "Oh come on now, you won't die if you eat from it. God just doesn't want you to be like him, knowing both good and evil."

And after Adam & Eve succumbed to the devil's deceit, God had a long talk with them as well. This ties in nicely with the descriptions of Satan in 2 Cor. 11, where he is described as crafty, appearing as an angel of light, and of Eph 6:11 where he is described as wily.

Anyway, the point is that just as you have done with God, pulling a bunch of seemingly conflicting descriptions together to obtain a complete picture, when you do the same with the descriptions of Satan, they do not conflict, but rather present a fuller picture of who he is. And it presents a very real adversary, capable of stealing our very soul if we're not vigilant.

In the case of God I've got a lot of the pieces of the jigsaw, and the picture on the box in the form of Jesus of Nazareth. In the case of Satan I've got half a dozen jigsaw pieces that show every sign, so far as I can tell, of being from different jigsaws.

 

[RyanLeeParis]

No, no, the Devil isn't a person. The Devil is a Spirit, like how angels are spirits. The best way I can say is it is imagine how the wind floats by your house, you can't see the wind but it's something real. The Devil is the same way. I know it's hard to think of spirits as not being humans, but they aren't...

 

[Dark_Lite]

There are also a lot of stuff on Satan's falling from heaven in the Book of Enoch. While not canon, it is likely where a lot of the details of Satan's story come from.

 

[Zecryphon]

There are also a lot of stuff on Satan's falling from heaven in the Book of Enoch. While not canon, it is likely where a lot of the details of Satan's story come from.

I wanna say that same story is reiterated in either the Koran or the Torah. But I'm not 100% on that.

 

[Adoniram]

In the case of God I've got a lot of the pieces of the jigsaw, and the picture on the box in the form of Jesus of Nazareth. In the case of Satan I've got half a dozen jigsaw pieces that show every sign, so far as I can tell, of being from different jigsaws.

Is a half a dozen all you can find? Perhaps I can be of some help.

the adversary of God and man-------------------- 1 Pet. 5:8
prince
-----of the demons------------------------------ Mt. 12:24
-----of powers of the air------------------------- Eph. 2:2
-----of this world-------------------------------- John 14:30
sinner from the beginning------------------------- 1 John 3:8
cast out of heaven------------------------------- Luke 10:18
as the serpent, caused the fall of man------------- Gen. 3
lied to Eve--------------------------------------- Gen. 3:4
cursed by God----------------------------------- Gen. 3:14
can stand appear God---------------------------- Job 1:6
called by various names
-----Abaddon & Apollyon-------------------------- Rev. 9:11
-----Beelzebub----------------------------------- Mt. 12:24
-----Belial---------------------------------------- 2 Cor. 6:15
-----Lucifer-------------------------------------- Isa. 14:12
-----Satan--------------------------------------- Luke 10:18
tempter (examples)
-----Christ--------------------------------------- Mt. 4:3-10
-----Eve----------------------------------------- Gen. 3
-----David--------------------------------------- 1 Chr. 21:1
desires to corrupt the faithful--------------------- Luke 22:31
can enter into people
-----Judas Iscariot------------------------------- Luke 22:3
-----Peter--------------------------------------- Mt. 16:23
causes apostasy--------------------------------- 1 Tim. 4:1
as prince and god of this world, he
-----perverts the scriptures---------------------- Mt. 4:6
-----opposes God's work------------------------- Zech. 3:1; 1 Thes. 2:18
-----hinders the gospel-------------------------- 2 Cor. 4:4
-----works lying wonders------------------------ 2 Thes. 2:9
-----appears as an angel of light----------------- 2 Cor. 11:14
-----is the father of lies------------------------- John 8:44
characteristics
-----presumptuous------------------------------ Mt. 4:8-9
-----proud-------------------------------------- Isa. 14:13-14
-----powerful----------------------------------- Eph. 2:2
-----wicked------------------------------------ 1 Jn. 2:13
-----malignant---------------------------------- Job 1:9; 2:4
-----subtle------------------------------------- 2 Cor. 11:3
-----deceitful----------------------------------- Eph. 6:11
-----fierce and cruel---------------------------- 1 Pet. 5:8



I used a concordance to glean these passages and looked up every one of them. Now, they don't all say "the devil is this" or "Satan is that" but from them one can derive various characteristics and traits of the devil and get an idea of just what kind of a beast he is. They all describe a being rather than a concept. This is only a part of the list of passages referring directly to or implying the devil that I found. Certainly enough to paint a picture of the being called Satan.

 

[ebia]

Is a half a dozen all you can find? Perhaps I can be of some help.

the adversary of God and man-------------------- 1 Pet. 5:8
prince
-----of the demons------------------------------ Mt. 12:24
-----of powers of the air------------------------- Eph. 2:2
-----of this world-------------------------------- John 14:30
sinner from the beginning------------------------- 1 John 3:8
cast out of heaven------------------------------- Luke 10:18
as the serpent, caused the fall of man------------- Gen. 3
lied to Eve--------------------------------------- Gen. 3:4
cursed by God----------------------------------- Gen. 3:14
can stand appear God---------------------------- Job 1:6
called by various names
-----Abaddon & Apollyon-------------------------- Rev. 9:11
-----Beelzebub----------------------------------- Mt. 12:24
-----Belial---------------------------------------- 2 Cor. 6:15
-----Lucifer-------------------------------------- Isa. 14:12
-----Satan--------------------------------------- Luke 10:18
tempter (examples)
-----Christ--------------------------------------- Mt. 4:3-10
-----Eve----------------------------------------- Gen. 3
-----David--------------------------------------- 1 Chr. 21:1
desires to corrupt the faithful--------------------- Luke 22:31
can enter into people
-----Judas Iscariot------------------------------- Luke 22:3
-----Peter--------------------------------------- Mt. 16:23
causes apostasy--------------------------------- 1 Tim. 4:1
as prince and god of this world, he
-----perverts the scriptures---------------------- Mt. 4:6
-----opposes God's work------------------------- Zech. 3:1; 1 Thes. 2:18
-----hinders the gospel-------------------------- 2 Cor. 4:4
-----works lying wonders------------------------ 2 Thes. 2:9
-----appears as an angel of light----------------- 2 Cor. 11:14
-----is the father of lies------------------------- John 8:44
characteristics
-----presumptuous------------------------------ Mt. 4:8-9
-----proud-------------------------------------- Isa. 14:13-14
-----powerful----------------------------------- Eph. 2:2
-----wicked------------------------------------ 1 Jn. 2:13
-----malignant---------------------------------- Job 1:9; 2:4
-----subtle------------------------------------- 2 Cor. 11:3
-----deceitful----------------------------------- Eph. 6:11
-----fierce and cruel---------------------------- 1 Pet. 5:8



I used a concordance to glean these passages and looked up every one of them. Now, they don't all say "the devil is this" or "Satan is that" but from them one can derive various characteristics and traits of the devil and get an idea of just what kind of a beast he is. They all describe a being rather than a concept. This is only a part of the list of passages referring directly to or implying the devil that I found. Certainly enough to paint a picture of the being called Satan.

Well, for a start, that assumes that all those names are talking about the same being. And leaving aside that, say, Isaiah 14 isn't talking about about Satan at all, but the King of Babylon. Making it a reference to Satan is reading a secondary meaning back into the text. Others are clearly figures of speech. Of course 1 Chr. 21:1 is interesting, because looking up the same story in Samuel we find that the same role is played by Satan in one version of the story, and God in the other.

 

[Adoniram]

Well, for a start, that assumes that all those names are talking about the same being. And leaving aside that, say, Isaiah 14 isn't talking about about Satan at all, but the King of Babylon. Making it a reference to Satan is reading a secondary meaning back into the text.

Quite possibly. In the Bible it's a common practice, actually, to employ the use of one person as a type of another.

Others are clearly figures of speech.

In the form of anthropomorphism to be exact and possibly apposition. Nevertheless, descriptive of the devil.

Of course 1 Chr. 21:1 is interesting, because looking up the same story in Samuel we find that the same role is played by Satan in one version of the story, and God in the other.

True, and I hadn't caught that. Thanks for pointing it out. Both passages have to be true so there must be an explanation. Perhaps God allowed Satan some latitude to test David, much like he did in giving him latitude to act against Job. One must understand that God sovereignly and permissively uses Satan at times to achieve his purposes.


Am I to understand, ebia, that you do not believe the devil is an actual created being whose goal is to destroy all that God works for in this world? I have never met anyone whom I consider to be a knowledgable and devout Christian, as I do you, based on the many posts of yours I have read in this forum, who expresses that viewpoint.

 

[RMDY]

No, no, the Devil isn't a person. The Devil is a Spirit, like how angels are spirits. The best way I can say is it is imagine how the wind floats by your house, you can't see the wind but it's something real. The Devil is the same way. I know it's hard to think of spirits as not being humans, but they aren't...

I disagree. The holy trinity consists of three persons: The Holy Spirit, God the Father, and God the Son. So, I would expect Angels to be persons too.

 

[ebia]

Quite possibly. In the Bible it's a common practice, actually, to employ the use of one person as a type of another. In the form of anthropomorphism to be exact and possibly apposition. Nevertheless, descriptive of the devil. True, and I hadn't caught that. Thanks for pointing it out. Both passages have to be true so there must be an explanation.

The most obvious one being that one or both are literary devices to 'explain' David's action rather than being literally factual.

Perhaps God allowed Satan some latitude to test David, much like he did in giving him latitude to act against Job. One must understand that God sovereignly and permissively uses Satan at times to achieve his purposes.


Am I to understand, ebia, that you do not believe the devil is an actual created being whose goal is to destroy all that God works for in this world? I have never met anyone whom I consider to be a knowledgable and devout Christian, as I do you, based on the many posts of yours I have read in this forum, who expresses that viewpoint.

I'm yet to be persuaded to a precise view of Satan and/or the devil. I'm open to the possibility that they are names for one or more beings, or that they are personifications of very real issues like evil, but when one strips away the accumulated traditions and assumptions I'm not sure that the bible commits one either way.

 

[RMDY]

The best way I can say is it is imagine how the wind floats by your house, you can't see the wind but it's something real. The Devil is the same way. I know it's hard to think of spirits as not being humans, but they aren't...

I disagree. Angels can take human form. They are persons whether they are in physical form or not.

 

[RMDY]

I wanna say that same story is reiterated in either the Koran or the Torah. But I'm not 100% on that.

The Koran is not a reliable source as it came around 600 years after Jesus.

 

[RMDY]

Is a half a dozen all you can find? Perhaps I can be of some help.

the adversary of God and man-------------------- 1 Pet. 5:8
prince
-----of the demons------------------------------ Mt. 12:24
-----of powers of the air------------------------- Eph. 2:2
-----of this world-------------------------------- John 14:30
sinner from the beginning------------------------- 1 John 3:8
cast out of heaven------------------------------- Luke 10:18
as the serpent, caused the fall of man------------- Gen. 3
lied to Eve--------------------------------------- Gen. 3:4
cursed by God----------------------------------- Gen. 3:14
can stand appear God---------------------------- Job 1:6
called by various names
-----Abaddon & Apollyon-------------------------- Rev. 9:11
-----Beelzebub----------------------------------- Mt. 12:24
-----Belial---------------------------------------- 2 Cor. 6:15
-----Lucifer-------------------------------------- Isa. 14:12
-----Satan--------------------------------------- Luke 10:18
tempter (examples)
-----Christ--------------------------------------- Mt. 4:3-10
-----Eve----------------------------------------- Gen. 3
-----David--------------------------------------- 1 Chr. 21:1
desires to corrupt the faithful--------------------- Luke 22:31
can enter into people
-----Judas Iscariot------------------------------- Luke 22:3
-----Peter--------------------------------------- Mt. 16:23
causes apostasy--------------------------------- 1 Tim. 4:1
as prince and god of this world, he
-----perverts the scriptures---------------------- Mt. 4:6
-----opposes God's work------------------------- Zech. 3:1; 1 Thes. 2:18
-----hinders the gospel-------------------------- 2 Cor. 4:4
-----works lying wonders------------------------ 2 Thes. 2:9
-----appears as an angel of light----------------- 2 Cor. 11:14
-----is the father of lies------------------------- John 8:44
characteristics
-----presumptuous------------------------------ Mt. 4:8-9
-----proud-------------------------------------- Isa. 14:13-14
-----powerful----------------------------------- Eph. 2:2
-----wicked------------------------------------ 1 Jn. 2:13
-----malignant---------------------------------- Job 1:9; 2:4
-----subtle------------------------------------- 2 Cor. 11:3
-----deceitful----------------------------------- Eph. 6:11
-----fierce and cruel---------------------------- 1 Pet. 5:8



I used a concordance to glean these passages and looked up every one of them. Now, they don't all say "the devil is this" or "Satan is that" but from them one can derive various characteristics and traits of the devil and get an idea of just what kind of a beast he is. They all describe a being rather than a concept. This is only a part of the list of passages referring directly to or implying the devil that I found. Certainly enough to paint a picture of the being called Satan.

Amen =)

 

[RMDY]

Well, for a start, that assumes that all those names are talking about the same being. And leaving aside that, say, Isaiah 14 isn't talking about about Satan at all, but the King of Babylon. Making it a reference to Satan is reading a secondary meaning back into the text. Others are clearly figures of speech. Of course 1 Chr. 21:1 is interesting, because looking up the same story in Samuel we find that the same role is played by Satan in one version of the story, and God in the other.

Sometimes prophecies in the O.T. had a double meaning that applied to the present and the future.

 

[ebia]

Sometimes prophecies in the O.T. had a double meaning that applied to the present and the future.

That's occasionally true, but I see no reason to think that this is one of those instances.

 

[RMDY]

That's occasionally true, but I see no reason to think that this is one of those instances.

Ebia, you seem to have a personal dislike towards Satan and hell? I am curious why you have this attitude? I use to have it, that is, the attitude and belief that Satan was not literally real and was more symbolic and that hell didn't exist at all.

 

[ebia]

Ebia, you seem to have a personal dislike towards Satan and hell? I am curious why you have this attitude?

The popular image is built more on tradition than anything else, and when you start to strip away that tradition and go back to the texts themselves what you find is something that looks more like a way of talking about evil etc than an actual being.

I'm open to possibility that Satan really is an actual being, but that's not what I find when go to the texts themselves free of tradition. Why you think getting back to the texts with an open mind constitutes an 'attitude of personal dislike' I'm not sure.

In the long run it makes no real difference - whether Satan is away of talking about evil or actually evil in person is really an academic question.


Hell is a bit of a different story, so best not sidetrack the discussion.

 

[RMDY]

The popular image is built more on tradition than anything else

I find this absurd considering that Jesus rebuked people of his time for following the traditions of men. Nonetheless, I find it even more absurd to write off Satan as a "popular image" tradition of men though Jesus was tested by him in the desert. That leaves you to either deduce that Jesus was either insane, delusional, or a liar.