The Descent of the Modernists

JeffreyLloyd · May 15, 2007

Illustration depicting Modernism as the descent from Christianity to atheism. "The Descent of the Modernists", by E. J. Pace, Christian Cartoons, 1922; republished in Seven Questions in Dispute, by William Jennings Bryan, 1924.

From Wikipedia

Globalnomad · May 15, 2007

Excuse me? What does that cartoon have to do with modernism except for its title?

Foundthelight · May 15, 2007

Globalnomad said:
Excuse me? What does that cartoon have to do with modernism except for its title?

Look at the labels on the steps. We normally call this post-modernism today.

Voegelin · May 15, 2007

. . . republished in Seven Questions in Dispute, by William Jennings Bryan, 1924.

The "Great Commoner". A fundamentalist. Three time (1896, 1900, 1908) Democratic Party nominee for President. Secretary of State under Woodrow Wilson. A pacifist, a trust buster, a progressive who fought Darwinism and fought the conservative wing of the Democratic Party.

"My faith in the future--and I have faith--and my optimism--for I am an optimist--my faith and my optimism rest upon the belief that Christ's teachings are being more studied today than ever before . . ." William Jennings Bryan The Prince of Peace

Globalnomad · May 15, 2007

Foundthelight said:
Look at the labels on the steps. We normally call this post-modernism today.

I WAS looking at the labels on the steps, but they seem to me to go way beyond Modernism. As far as I know, the only labels that are indeed related to Modernism are "no Virgin Birth" and "no miracles".

Da_Funkey_Gibbon · May 15, 2007

Well I think the point is that once you get rid of those it's a slippery slope. Frankly once you get rid of miracles, it's not really Christianity - if you consider the incarnation and the resurrection to be miracles.

nyj · May 15, 2007

Globalnomad said:
I WAS looking at the labels on the steps, but they seem to me to go way beyond Modernism. As far as I know, the only labels that are indeed related to Modernism are "no Virgin Birth" and "no miracles".

If there is no Virgin Birth, there is no incarnation. If there is no incarnation, there is no atonement. If there is no atonement, what is left?

Globalnomad · May 15, 2007

No, it's quite possible to believe in the Incarnation (=divinity of Christ) without believing in the Virgin Birth. And even in the Resurrection without believing in the "minor" miracles, anthough that one is more difficult to reconcile logically.

nyj · May 15, 2007

Globalnomad said:
No, it's quite possible to believe in the Incarnation (=divinity of Christ) without believing in the Virgin Birth.

Please explain.

boughtwithaprice · May 15, 2007

this is what happens when labels are thrown around instead of reasoning and explanation. It is much easier to label and dismiss someone than to talk, argue or explain a position. I have been labeled a modernist by some on this board, but I don't agree with the things on those steps. I wish people would grow up and defend their position, rather than playing these grade school games of trashing someone else's thoughts

JeffreyLloyd · May 15, 2007

boughtwithaprice said:
this is what happens when labels are thrown around instead of reasoning and explanation. It is much easier to label and dismiss someone than to talk, argue or explain a position. I have been labeled a modernist by some on this board, but I don't agree with the things on those steps. I wish people would grow up and defend their position, rather than playing these grade school games of trashing someone else's thoughts

You seem awful defensive. Modernism has been condemned by the church.

Da_Funkey_Gibbon · May 15, 2007

boughtwithaprice said:
this is what happens when labels are thrown around instead of reasoning and explanation. It is much easier to label and dismiss someone than to talk, argue or explain a position. I have been labeled a modernist by some on this board, but I don't agree with the things on those steps. I wish people would grow up and defend their position, rather than playing these grade school games of trashing someone else's thoughts

A) Who are we labeling?

B) If you think Modernism's being trashed or misrepresented, why don't you offer a defense of it?

Caedmon · May 15, 2007

What do you mean by "modernism" exactly, and what do you mean by "condemned by the Church"? And I don't understand the "Agnosticism" step. What Catholic doesn't have agnostic moments? Furthermore, I've seen the term "Agnosticism" used in the context of mysticism, in reference to works like "The Cloud of Unknowing," for example. So I don't totally get this cartoon. It's a bunch of terms with little context. Was this presented alongside some text? Even early modern epigrams had corresponding texts and explanations.

Da_Funkey_Gibbon · May 15, 2007

As for the diagram, it's overly simplistic but still has a valid point. From what I understand, modernism tends to be more about religion and society than religion and the individual. So secularism more than atheism, but nevertheless it denies the infallibility of the Church and the absolute truth of its teachings to accomplish this. There is no need to do that, sure society nowadays needs a bunch of different people from different religions to get on in order to function, but there's no need to change that religion in order to accomplish that.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree. I read the wiki article, but modernism sound like something you'd have to put a fair bit of reading into if you wanted to understand it fully.

NDIrish · May 15, 2007

If anyone want's to know what Modernism is, I'd suggest reading Pascendi Dominici Gregis. It's very dense reading...take it slowly...but it's very well worth it.

Caedmon · May 15, 2007

The problem here, is that the exact meaning of the word "modernism" is not explained in the cartoon. Is it the modernism that accompanied expressionism, existentialism, nihilism, or post-modernism, or is it some vague concept of atheism-and/or rational-thought-and-/or-nontraditional-catholic-liturgy-and/or-morality equals "modernism," or what?

Edit: OK, I just saw the Wikipedia article.

"Pope St. Pius X, who succeeded Leo, was the first to identify Modernism as a movement.... In September of the same year, he promulgated an encyclical Pascendi dominici gregis which enjoined a compulsory Anti-Modernist oath on all Catholic bishops, priests and teachers to force them to come to clear terms with what they believed, which was used until 1967.... Since Pope Paul VI, the church authorities have largely dropped the term "modernism", perhaps because it is inherently ambiguous... The term has however enjoyed a revival by "traditionalist" critics within the Catholic Church and of its more prominent members."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism_%28Roman_Catholicism%29

OK, that speaks volumes to me. This kind of controversy always has Pius X at its heart. I seriously think that if people would stop having conniption fits about the "horrors of "modernism"" (whatever that means), paranoia levels might drop down enough to where people could start producing practical, constructive solutions to everyday, real-life problems, instead of having infarctions over global phenomena that they can't readily alter. Like they say, if you want to change the world, (relax and) start with yourself.

ProCommunioneFacior · May 15, 2007

For those interested here are 4 excellent documents by Popes in regards to the issues of the modernists.

PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X
ON THE DOCTRINES
OF THE MODERNISTS

SYLLABUS CONDEMNING THE ERRORS OF THE MODERNISTS
LAMENTABILI SANE
Pius X July 3, 1907

PRAESTANTIA SCRIPTURAE
Pope Pius X
Motu proprio of Our Most Holy Lord Pius X., by Divine Providence Pope, on the decisions of the Pontifical Commission on the Bible and on the censures and penalties against those who neglect to observe the prescriptions against the errors of the modernists:

HUMANI GENERIS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
CONCERNING SOME FALSE OPINIONS THREATENING
TO UNDERMINE THE FOUNDATIONS OF CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
TO OUR VENERABLE BRETHREN, PATRIARCHS, PRIMATES,
ARCHBISHOPS, BISHIOPS, AND OTHER LOCAL ORDINARIES
ENJOYING PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE HOLY SEE

Da_Funkey_Gibbon · May 15, 2007

Caedmon said:
The problem here, is that the exact meaning of the word "modernism" is not explained in the cartoon. Is it the modernism that accompanied expressionism, existentialism, nihilism, or post-modernism, or is it some vague concept of atheism-and/or rational-thought-and-/or-nontraditional-catholic-liturgy-and/or-morality equals "modernism," or what?

I'd say it was just the philosophical movement in late 19th / early 20th century Catholicism, but of course there is probably a lot of diversity in that movement.

WarriorAngel · May 15, 2007

I can only say this...I deal with 'agnostic' modernists.

See, how they tell it... is that the modern free thinker is above having to believe in fairy tales and God. IE that God is a fairy tale.

I say agnostic only because they were athiests once.
It took like 5 years or something of talking to them to get them to be agnostic.

Just in laymen's terms for those who havent dealt with any.

Michelina · May 15, 2007

Great Links, ND & PCF! Here's another, written for laymen:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10415a.htm

Modernism was first recognized as a danger by Pope Pius IX who addressed it, in its seminal form, in 1846. Modernism, sometimes called the Mother of All Heresies, subjects Catholic doctrine to the prejudices of the arrogant Rationalism and Scientism of Secular Humanism. Its devotees pretend to be people of superior intellect who wish to redefine Christianity in terms that conform to their own shallow opinions about God and Man.

The Descent of the Modernists

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