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Featured The definition of "Justification"

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by bettercallpaul, Jun 29, 2017.

  1. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Revelation 12 seems to indicate that the prosecutor has been ejected from the courtroom; the defense attorney and the judge have made a plea bargain in which the defense attorney has taken the punishment in place of the defendant; the defendant need only agree.
     
  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Have you never read the BIBLE ?! Why do you call what the BIBLE SAYS PLAINLY and CLEARLY nonsense ? Who do you say has higher authority than YESHUA HAMASHIACH MESSIAH SAVIOR KING AND NAME ABOVE EVERY NAME !?
     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    A more accurate term might be the requirement to be crucified with Christ Jesus Messiah Savior King Redeemer ...
     
  4. bettercallpaul

    bettercallpaul Full- time Catholic

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    I wonder how many people would renounce their Christian faith under threat of being tortured and crucified like Jesus?
    I cant say I wouldn't cave in, under pressure.
     
  5. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Many have forfeit or never been saved to start with,
    not realizing they must endure to the end,
    and all that is required clearly in Scripture, in YHWH'S PLAN,
    including death to self, no option.(always required)
     
  6. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    This is more than a definition. It's an assertion of how it works.

    Like many Biblical words, while we can tell roughly what it means from general use, it is used by Paul (and once by James) in specific ways. That means we figure it out from context.

    Paul seems to have two meanings, which overlap. One is recognition that someone is right with God (or in a right status before God). The other is setting them right with God. In his initial treatment in Romans, involving Abraham, it's pretty clear that he's talking about how we know that Abraham is right with God. But in Rom 4:5 where is speaks of justifying the ungodly, he pretty clearly means setting someone right with God.

    Certainly Christ's atoning sacrifice is relevant, but it's not part of the definition of the word.

    The term as used by James seems similar. It's referring to someone being right with God. But from context it's pretty clear that they envision it differently. For Paul, being justified refers to something that's only part of being a Christian. It's God's acceptance independent of works, but this produces and is evidenced by what we do. For James it seems to refer to someone who is recognized as living a Christian life, so it includes our actions.

    This distinction is important to understand, because Protestant theology typically uses Paul's definition and Catholic theology James'. When Protestants speak of justification by faith alone, Catholics have often thought it's saying that faith is all God wants from us, because they're using a broader definition of justification.
     
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  7. bettercallpaul

    bettercallpaul Full- time Catholic

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    I like your explanations. That was helpful.
     
  8. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Just as if I never sinned...

    We are justified by looking to, believing in him, and being repentant to/towards/and with, him and I would say in life.... If were in our new born again life...

    God Bless!
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    When a person is born, it is generally not a long and dragged out life time event. In fact, on your birth certificate, there is a date of when you are born.

    I say this because Jesus related the physical world with the spiritual.

    If the physical example is not in parallel with the spiritual example or truth, then the parallel seizes to make any sense anymore.

    Being born of the Spirit is talking about being spiritually born again one time by the Holy Ghost. It is a transforming of one's heart by the Spirit. It is a spiritual regeneration where we receive a new heart with new desires. When people have accepted Christ before, they suddenly did a life change. Old sinful habits no longer seemed appealing anymore to them, etc. They stopped smoking, they thrown out their worldly stuff, etc. Jesus is the change and focus of their life.

    Being born of water is talking about being born by the Holy Scriptures. This is the seed of the Word that was rooted in one's heart by receiving the gospel message and Christ's commands according to God's Word. Ephesians 5:25-27 talks about how we are sanctified by the "water of the Word." For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Peter says we are born by the incorruptible seed of the Word of God. The seed in the Parable of the sower is defined as the Word of God (Luke 8:11); And the sower is the Son of Man (Jesus) (Matthew 13:37).


    ...
     
  10. def

    def Member Supporter

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    In the absence of a biblical definition, the generic definition should stand. Paul must have thought that the generic meaning is good enough, unlike faith and righteousness which have been defined.

    The generic definition is giving a reason or explanation for something (Cambridge dictionary).

    That something is usually a decision or an action. Therefore, God is giving reasons for HIS decisions and actions. I have shown elsewhere in this forum that God gave reasons relating to the New Covenant.

    God gave a reason for the New Covenant, and the reason is HIS mercy and HIS desire to help. Mercy and HELP are two aspects of grace (Hebrews 4:16) - justified by grace.

    The covenant has four terms.

    I will put my Spirit in you - justified by faith, the reason is faith.
    I will be their God, and they will be my people - justified by works - reason is HIS people will work to glorify HIS name.
    They will all know me - justified by the faith of Christ, the reason: through God's works, HIS people know HIM, but works require trusting GOD in trying circumstances.
    I will remember their sins no more - justified by the blood of Christ.
     
  11. All4Christ

    All4Christ ✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I mentioned earlier that the East and West tend to understand justification in different ways. The Eastern churches (Orthodox Byzantine Catholic, etc.) don't see justification as a one time event upon conversion.

    Justification is the impartation of righteousness. It is started (accomplished) at conversion through the mercy of God and continues (is maintained) throughout the life of the Christian as one is conformed, in righteousness, to the image and likeness of God through the power of the Holy Spirit.

    It is important to remember that justification is one aspect of salvation. Scripture paints a rich tapestry of salvation, with many aspects.
     
  12. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Bingo!

    You have a way with words that I don't have and your one paragraph sums it in the best succinct way possible.

    Thankyou!
     
  13. def

    def Member Supporter

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    Read Rev 12, and can't see how you come to that conclusion. Please enlighten me.
     
  14. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    No one has higher authority than Jesus Christ our Crowned Monarch and High Priest Joshua/Jesus.

    I replied to your statement that was a reply to another poster's question below....

    @bettercallpaul said.....
    How do we know we are justified then? Can we prove it?

    You replied as follows...
    Most people are never justified. Proven by Scripture.


    The Holy Bible states that many are justified in Christ, who is the Joshua of Zechariah 3:9...

    9See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

    Justification is a LEGAL EVENT that happened once and for all of humanity who are called to Christ as in The Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13.

    So that many are called to Christ Jesus and are legally justified by that SINGLE DAY EVENT by the blood of Christ, before God the righteous Judge, yet only a few are chosen and sanctified by God the Holy Ghost.

    Most people are justified by that single day event, yet only a few are sanctified and are saved onto salvation, to be reunited with their Lord for eternity.

    You confused justification with sanctification and John 3:5 explains that the Water justifies all, yet the Fire of the Holy Spirit is the sanctifier, who puts the finishing seal of salvation on those who were justified by that single day event on the cross at Calvary.

    So justification is a single day event, that is it happened from a legal context to free humanity who are called to Christ, as in the parable of the sower.

    Sanctification on the other hand, is a life long purging/rehab process in this lifetime, by the Holy Ghost, who sees through the process of justified prisoners of Christ. This is a life long event, which is why Paul says.....

    7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day (2 Timothy 4:7-8)

    So that day as far as Paul was saying is post death, at the day of judgment for the works of faith done in the body, again the parable of the sower.

    So that salvation = justification (single day legal event) + sanctification (life long purging/rehab event until death)

    Death of the body of a Testator/Witness, as Hebrews 9 states is what discharges the obligations of the blood covenant and then follows judgment. It is written that all men are destined to die once then judgment.
     
  15. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    In the Greek the sentence structure of John 3:5 is written like so....

    Answered Jesus, truly truly I say to you, if not anyone be born of water and of Spirit, not he is able to enter into the Kingdom of God.

    The word born in the Greek has the following meaning....

    1080. gennaó
    to beget, to bring forth


    From a spiritual context being born again, is to bring forth, which implies a process and not a single day event in ones life.

    If we rewrote the verse, it would render as follows....

    Except a person be brought forth of Water and of the Spirit.

    Water is our baptism calling into Christ, where the seed of the word of the gospel of Jesus is planted firmly in our hearts. This is our chioce to embrace Jesus in our lives.

    However, with the Spirit, the process is lifelong.

    let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, (Hebrews 12:1)

    Apostles are clearly highlighting an ongoing race of faith, which is closely tied to being sanctified, so to be brought into the fullness of Christ before a witness dies.

    4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. (Hebrews 12:4)

    Remembering that the context of this race, is onto death, that is.....

    they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testamentwas dedicated without blood. (Hebrews 9:15-18)

    We must finish our race and keep the faith onto death, in order to be brought forth by the Son and the Spirit to the Father. This is what John 3:5 implies to every believer.

    Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done. (Hebrews 12:16-17)

    Notice that Esau was entitled to the promise, like many justified believers, yet he at the last moment threw away his inheritance based on last moments fleshly desires.

    That is why the Hebrews author states for believers not to get ahead of themselves into thinking that they have arrived, in that thy have already been brought forth to salvation and onto eternal inheritance, because they as Testator/Withesses have not yet resisted to the point of shedding their blood.

    The regeneration is lifelong and not a one time event. A justified person can still turn and loose his/her eternal inheritance if he/she so chooses to do so.

    Yes that is correct, that is the evidence of their sanctification process, but by no means is it the end, for it is an ongoing process until the Testator sheds their blood, meaning dies, whilst keeping the true faith.

    Notice in the Ephesians versus you quoted that there is a word that implies an ongoing process, that is....

    That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church,

    It is no guareentee, but a hope to get you across the line. The race is to keep the faith even into death as Jesus said....

    be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. (Revelation 2:10)
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am strongly against those who seek to justify sin and I am strongly against Eternal Security. Serious sin is spiritual death unless it is repented of. I also believe Sanctification (i.e. holy living) is a part of the salvation process. So no need to show me verses on the importance of Sanctification, my friend. I agree with you that it is essential to our right standing with God. The alternative is to justify evil or sin in some way (Which is not possible because God is holy and He will not tolerate anyone doing sin or evil).

    Anyways, you are going to have to bring up verses that specifically say that being born again is a life long process. If not, then you are just seeing what you desire to see.

    The New Birth:
    (The spiritual regeneration of believers):

    2 Corinthians 5:17

    "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

    John 3:6
    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

    John 1:12-13
    "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

    Matthew 18:3
    "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall NOT ENTER into the kingdom of heaven."

    Ezekiel 36:26-27
    "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

    John 6:60-61,63-64a
    "Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? ...It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not...."

    1 Peter 1:23
    "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

    For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

    Side Note:

    As for the Greek: Did you grow up reading and writing Greek to be able to truly know for sure what the Greek says? Remember, not all Greek scholars agree with each other and James Strong and his buddies were not inspired by God to write the work that they did. Also, you have to choose which word is best in the Greek. Now, I am not saying it is not impossible to know what the Greek can say. I am just saying that most today act like they know Biblical Greek when they really do not know. They are only guessing as to what it says. Besides, the KJV was translated by a large committee and many of them knew Greek very well.



    ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
  17. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    You are 100% correct and I fully concur with you on this point.

    Yes, sanctification is very much an integral part of the salvation process (John 3:5).

    Correct!

    I came to this belief by asking and knocking, whereby I took on board every denominational teachings out there, Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant and came to the realisation that a common thread was being revealed in both the Old and the New Testaments, that plays into that narrative of an ongoing cleansing process within this life.

    The Catholics call it Purgatory in the afterlife, but I call it Purgatory within this life, before a Testator/Witness dies and the covenant is then fully discharged by blood, that is blood in blood out scenario from Christ as the forunner, to the witnesses, until the last witness, then when every one is delivered through the blood contract, then the Son is made subject to the Father, where the covenant then no longer applies, as it has fulfilled its purpose, where the final enemy death is defeated and there is no more applicability of delivering people from death to life and from this temporal life to eternal life, within the afterlife.

    Again the word become is really becoming as a process in motion to being fulfilled, once the Testator signs out with their own blood, that is blood in blood out.

    Read the Greek word for become, within the sentence structure, as it is very similar to ancient languages of Aramaic, Hebrew and Ancient Greek.

    1096. ginoma (has emerged has been translated become)
    To come into being.

    Coming into being is a rehabilitation life long process that brings the faithful through tribulations, into the fullness of Christ, according to his beatidudes.

    It has a starting point at the moment of Water, that is the embracing of the seed of the Word as you rightly said, within the parable of the sower. Then the fire, who is the Spirit starts a process. This process doesn't happen overnight or at an instant, rather it is progressive. If you look at Paul's ministry, you can see his pride a Pharisee, that is the Pharisee of Pharisees, deminish to the least of the apostles after 5 years into his ministry, to the world's greatest sinner who persecuted the church, 10 years later within his sanctification process.

    The more we are sanctified, the more we see our filth and impurities and become ashamed of what we were in the past. The examples you gave of people turning from sinning is evidence of that process, but not the end of that process by any means.

    Yes, that is correct.

    The phrase as many as embraced him, is a condition of the parable of the sower, where the seed fell on a fruitful ground, meaning a fruitful heart, that was well seeded and embrace so, to continue to grow in Christ, through a life long sanctification process.

    The phrase says it all. It is applicable to even the disciples, who stood, lived and ate with Christ and their lives certainly highlight the slow progression, through a conversion process of becoming like children. Look at the sword wielding Peter who wanted to raise up the earthly kingdom of Israel by human might, who denied Christ three times, to then become an absolutely shattered man, who would embrace persecution and death. Obviously Peter's conversion was not instant, but progressive across his entire lifetime. If you take other apostles like Paul, we see a similar progression.

    Even the disciples who embraced Jesus, would not understand the reason why Jesus the Joshua High Priest came. They thought that he came to liberate Israel and to rule an earthly kingdom.

    Yes, indeed!

    Yes!

    No, but my language is similar in syntax to the ancient cultures of those days and I can understand context from sentence structures and phrases, more so than a western abstract minded reader.

    They faithfully produced a translation of text, they couldn't translate a culture. What I mean, is that there are certain ways sentences and phrases are structured within a cultural context, that provides the meaning outside of just reading into the text word for word. In those Semitic ancient cultures, sentences emphasised intent to the reader, they were not neutral in the sense of a reader digest. For example....

    The many are called, yet only a few chosen. There is intent to convey something more important than the summation of the words. In short, Jesus is saying not everyone will be saved. It is like a person saying I'm calling out many for the trials of a football team, but understand that I cannot choose all of you, hence many will miss out on a place.

    John 3:5, has a context which is beyond the sum of the word, the intent here is that Water alone cannot save you, that is embracing Jesus is not the end, be all as far as salvation is concerned. The fire of the Spirit that purges within a lifetime, must accomplish the conversion into the new creation, so that those many who are called may become childlike in innocense, before they die. It would be futile for Jesus to say something in this life, if it is not for this lifetime to be accomplished in. When Jesus said....

    Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
     
  18. def

    def Member Supporter

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    I disagree that water is merely embracing the word of God, and your understanding of born again does not make sense with the teachings of Jesus given to Nicodemus.

    Jesus came by water and blood (1 John 5:6). Since blood is associated with the flesh, and we are flesh and spirit (2 Cor 7:1), water is a symbol of the spirit. To be born of water and Spirit is to be born of the spirit (water) and Spirit. And this is consistent with John 3:6, that is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    The birth of the spirit is a promise of the New Covenant, I will put a new spirit within you (Eze 36:26-27). The spirit is born again means that it wasn’t alive. The spirit died when Adam sinned. God said on the day you eat the fruit, you will surely die. Adam died on that very day and has to be the spirit that died because Adam died physically many years later.

    Born again, it is the spirit of the justified person that enters the kingdom of God to be made perfect (Hebrews 12:22). Hebrews 12:22 is vague, but it looks like the spirit is being made perfect, thus it is sanctification of the spirit. In sanctification, the spirit manifests the spiritual gifts such as tongues and prophecies.
     
  19. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    "To obey the law means you are just." Hmmmm...
    (Romans 4) Abraham was justified by...? FAITH. He believed God, obeying as God asked him to do. "...believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." And "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace... being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform." Grace is the power God gives us if we believe HE can do it...cause us to overcome, as we wash in the water of the word.

    The Law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ...as we see we are weak to keep the Law...Jesus came to fulfill the law...by our faith the Spirit of Truth transforms our inward parts, writing the law upon our hearts...giving us a new nature...by the power of the same spirit that rose Jesus Christ from the grave.

    But first we have to BELIEVE (faith -"fully persuaded") HE can and will cause it to be so...by DOING/obeying what the spirit of God says to do. By exercising genuine FAITH, we are justified...and faith is an action word as we look to Abraham as our example of the kind of faith we are to possess...which is our justification/right standing with God.

    ADDENDUM: God's covenant with Abraham (who was Abram) was circumcision of flesh... For us through Jesus Christ, circumcision of the heart/removal of 'flesh' to live by Spirit...the process of our soul's redemption. FAITH brings The Promise (of justification)...Romans 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Again, while I am all for the zeal of Sanctification and it's necessity in salvation, I think you are taking the term "born again" too far. I presented verses that clearly show that being born again is a one time event. We are told in the OT that we will receive a new heart and a new spirit. The word "converted" suggests a one time event. Also, the testimony of many people who first come to the Lord and their radical change in putting away sinful things and addictions also suggest a spiritual rebirth, as well. This does not mean that the new believer will not be tempted, and stumble in their early walk with God. But as they mature, they will overcome their sin by walking in the Lord (i.e. the Sanctification process). Jesus also illustrated spiritual truth by real world examples many times. If the real world example did not parallel the spiritual example, it destroys the comparison. So let's agree to disagree. I am not really interested at this point in what you have to say on this. I am only responding to let you know what I believe is true. My suggestion is ask the Lord to reveal to you which is true and not what you prefer to be true.

    Side Note:

    Oh, and if you were to do a study on the circumcision of the heart (Which was a term for born again in the Old Testament), you would discover that this only makes sense in terms of a one time event. The OT Scriptures say that person could not enter the temple if they were uncircumcised in heart. Circumcision is a one time event. Just like being born again is a one time event. But again, see whatever you wish to see; Or pray to God about it and seek the truth. Ask God and see what He has to say (and do not be biased to your viewpoint when you ask Him).


    ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
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