The debate over transgender athletes

[Mountainmanbob]

The debate over transgender athletes

Transgender athletes are breaking barriers at all levels of competitive sports, but their participation and wins are stirring controversy and resentment among those who believe they aren’t competing on equal playing fields. Schools and professional sports organizations now face the challenge of how to deal with athletes who are transgender.

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After much discussion the goats have stated that in the Goat World this would not be a fair competition.
M-Bob

 

[Macchiato]

It's not a fair competition.

 

[Residential Bob]

It's not a fair competition.

But but but, liberals are the fair-minded lot. And it's what they want.

So . . . it must be fair.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

We should pay more attention to good old-fashioned American rodeos.

Ever seen a cow participating in a bull ride?

M-Bob

 

[Macchiato]

But but but, liberals are the fair-minded lot. And it's what they want.

So . . . it must be fair.

I'm liberal-ish and I don't agree with transgerism and all that non binary garbage.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

I'm liberal-ish and I don't agree with transgerism and all that non binary garbage.

Thank you -- there's still hope.
M-Bob

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Being transgender in mind does not mean transgender in body except for sexual organs.The MTF transgender still has the physique , strength and stamina as a man. That is an unfair advantage in female sports competition imho.

 

[PloverWing]

This is a complicated issue. I don't know what the best solution is, but a good solution has to take a lot of factors into account:

- It's disrespectful to ignore the gender identity of a transgender person.
- A person who goes through puberty with lots of testosterone in their system gets a physical advantage in many sports, even if they identify as female.
- Transgender people should not be excluded from sports.
- Playing sports is about more than competition. It's also about developing fitness, achieving satisfying goals, and (for team sports) developing teamwork and friendships. Everyone should be able to participate in this if they want to.
- However, competition is also important in some kinds of sports events; many participants enjoy the feeling of winning against a competitor.

It's straightforward, I think, to include transgender people in noncompetitive sports. It seems like it's also straightforward to include trans people in low-stakes competitions -- intramural sports, the volleyball game at the office picnic, etc.; one team wins over another, but does it really matter if the Chemistry club team beats the Sociology club team? Hardest is when it's high-stakes competition: varsity high school or college, Olympics, etc.

Some creative solution may be possible. A league, perhaps, where competitors aren't divided by gender, but rather by height or weight class. For example, teams of people (any gender) ranging from height 5'2 - 5'6 would be one division; heights 5'7-5'11 another division, etc. Or maybe another solution is better. I'd like to see people who care about both sides of this -- respecting transgender people, and respecting the importance of fair competition -- trying to work together on this.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

The sports world is closely watching the case of Olympian Caster Semenya – who after her win in the 2009 Games was accused of being a man by a competitor and was then subjected to sex verification tests. The South African runner is seeking to overturn a new set of regulations aimed at lowering testosterone levels of hyperandrogenic athletes. The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) has set a March 26 deadline for a verdict, saying the “pivotal” case has potential for wide-reaching consequences. Her lawyers call Semenya, who appears in a new Nike ad, “unquestionably a woman.”

 

[eleos1954]

Might come down to testosterone levels and being tested.

Found this:

For men ages 19 and up, normal testosterone levels range from 240 to 950 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL). For women ages 19 and up, normal testosterone levels range from 8 to 60 ng/dL.

so no more than 60 - one can compete?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Colorado high school wrestler forfeits state tournament match rather than wrestle girl

 

[AACJ]

Being transgender in mind does not mean transgender in body except for sexual organs.The MTF transgender still has the physique , strength and stamina as a man. That is an unfair advantage in female sports competition imho.

Good point. Muscle memory is still there with MTF Transgenders.

 

[AACJ]

Might come down to testosterone levels and being tested.

Found this:

For men ages 19 and up, normal testosterone levels range from 240 to 950 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL). For women ages 19 and up, normal testosterone levels range from 8 to 60 ng/dL.

so no more than 60 - one can compete?

There is still the issue of muscle memory and memory in general. A king made into a pauper still remembers being a king and the advantages of being a king (I am speaking strength-wise, and the extra motivation such memory may provide).

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Is it really disputable at this point that men have a biological advantage in physical competitions? But this isn't the main objection I have to so-called transgender athletes, it's that they are competing in a competition they do not belong in and are in under the false pretense they are the sex/gender they claim.

If they are so insistent their gender is whatever they say, fine, lets make it clear physical competitions restricted to sex only.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The debate over transgender athletes

Transgender athletes are breaking barriers at all levels of competitive sports, but their participation and wins are stirring controversy and resentment among those who believe they aren’t competing on equal playing fields. Schools and professional sports organizations now face the challenge of how to deal with athletes who are transgender.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

After much discussion the goats have stated that in the Goat World this would not be a fair competition.
M-Bob

All those born male but prefer to compete with those born female will win every competition.

 

[PloverWing]

All those born male but prefer to compete with those born female will win every competition.

This overstates the situation. It depends on the sport and on the particular athletes. I doubt that there are many men who could out-compete Simone Biles on balance beam; and in Olympic equestrian events, where women and men compete together, some women have won gold medals, placing ahead of male competitors.

It's more accurate to say that statistically, those who go through puberty as males tend to be taller, stronger, and have slightly different skeletons than those who go through puberty as women, giving them an advantage in many sports. This is an important factor to take into account in designing sports competitions. But this is different from saying that everyone born with a male body is better than everyone born with a female body at every sport.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't see the issue- it's sport, not brain surgery or international diplomacy. People take sport way, way too seriously. If a sport can't deal fairly with all people, regardless of whether or not they are cisgender, then I would not be interested in following it. I don't support prejudice or bigotry against anyone, and sport has historically been used to reinforce prejudice in the broader society.

 

[FireDragon76]

This overstates the situation. It depends on the sport and on the particular athletes. I doubt that there are many men who could out-compete Simone Biles on balance beam; and in Olympic equestrian events, where women and men compete together, some women have won gold medals, placing ahead of male competitors.

It's more accurate to say that statistically, those who go through puberty as males tend to be taller, stronger, and have slightly different skeletons than those who go through puberty as women, giving them an advantage in many sports. This is an important factor to take into account in designing sports competitions. But this is different from saying that everyone born with a male body is better than everyone born with a female body at every sport.

With time, a transwoman's body will change, even her skeletal structure. We might as well ban tall or big women from playing as well.

Now days many people transition at a young age and have never had significant exposure to testosterone.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This overstates the situation. It depends on the sport and on the particular athletes. I doubt that there are many men who could out-compete Simone Biles on balance beam; and in Olympic equestrian events, where women and men compete together, some women have won gold medals, placing ahead of male competitors.

It's more accurate to say that statistically, those who go through puberty as males tend to be taller, stronger, and have slightly different skeletons than those who go through puberty as women, giving them an advantage in many sports. This is an important factor to take into account in designing sports competitions. But this is different from saying that everyone born with a male body is better than everyone born with a female body at every sport.

Very few sports exist where female bodies are an advantage. Males bodies have a different center of balance and more muscle mass. Their skeletons are very different as well. If they use an animal in the sport then the ground is likely level as animal bodies play a large role. But otherwise male bodies have greater strength, no question.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Is it really disputable at this point that men have a biological advantage in physical competitions? But this isn't the main objection I have to so-called transgender athletes, it's that they are competing in a competition they do not belong in and are in under the false pretense they are the sex/gender they claim.

If they are so insistent their gender is whatever they say, fine, lets make it clear physical competitions restricted to sex only.

Men have clear physical advantages which has been known down through the millennia. Only modern people are so ignorant as to think it’s all prejudice.