The Death Penalty

Neal of Zebulun

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Either way I still see it as a sin either way; so for me it is a sin, as it is written.

If I see a victim begging for my eye witness testimony, for justice; it doesn't matter if I'm under oath or not.

The voice of Abel's blood cried to YHWH from the ground; and YHWH responded to Cain.

In that manner injustice to victims, cries out to me.

I certainly don't disagree with you on that point!

I'm just looking at these translations and I'm finding that they don't match the Hebrew.

The way I read it is that soul that sinned, she is one person, and he the witness is a second person. So there are two people in the verse and not one.

There is a makka in between "because" and "she has sinned" indicating that these directly go together and should not be separated. See how that changes the meaning of the rest of the sentence? The other translations move stuff around.

So in effect I think it's saying that as long as the criminal is not already being tried and under oath, then it's not a sin if you don't testify because the person they robbed, like in your example, has forgiven them or decided not to press charges for some reason.

Likewise if you're the one they robbed, you don't have to press charges and a second witness is not sinful for not testifying because you decided to just let it go.
 
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HARK!

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Here's a quick translation of Leviticus 5:1. I left in the genders so that it's easier to see what's being said. Keep in mind that a "soul" is a she in Hebrew, but it can be a man or woman's soul.:

And a soul because she has sinned and she has heard the voice of an oath, then he a witness, or he having seen, or he having known, if he does not testify then he shall bear his iniquity.​

Here is what I see when I look at a word by word translation of the Hebrew:

or he-saw whether witness and-he imprecation voice-of and-she-hears she-is-sinning that and-soul depravity-of-him and-he-bears he-is-telling not if he-knew

The way I read it is that soul that sinned, she is one person, and he the witness is a second person. So there are two people in the verse and not one.

I would tend to agree.

There is a makka in between "because" and "she has sinned" indicating that these directly go together and should not be separated. See how that changes the meaning of the rest of the sentence? The other translations move stuff around.

What is a makka? There is no "because" in the text that I'm reading.
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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Here is what I see when I look at a word by word translation of the Hebrew:

or he-saw whether witness and-he imprecation voice-of and-she-hears she-is-sinning that and-soul depravity-of-him and-he-bears he-is-telling not if he-knew



I would tend to agree.



What is a makka? There is no "because" in the text that I'm reading.

Thank you for your kindness Hark! Here's the Hebrew that I translated from (Leningrad Codex):

וְנֶ֣פֶשׁ כִּֽי־תֶחֱטָ֗א וְשָֽׁמְעָה֙ ק֣וֹל אָלָ֔ה וְה֣וּא עֵ֔ד א֥וֹ רָאָ֖ה א֣וֹ יָדָ֑ע אִם־ל֥וֹא יַגִּ֖יד וְנָשָׂ֥א עֲוֺנֽוֹ׃

The makka is the character that looks like a hyphen (־).

I need to point out that I made some errors with tense in the translation from last night! "She has sinned" is not in the perfect voice, but the imperfect. And same with "and she has heard" so, I've corrected them below. I've decided to italicize the words I'm adding, to help:

And a soul, because she is sinning and she hears the voice of an oath, then he a witness, or he having seen, or he having known, if he does not testify then he shall bear his iniquity.​

Here, I'll break the translation by each Hebrew word! (I would make a table, but I don't know how!):

And a soul (וְנֶ֣פֶשׁ)
because (כִּֽי־)
she is sinning (תֶחֱטָ֗א)
and she hears (וְשָֽׁמְעָה֙)
the voice of (ק֣וֹל)
an oath, (אָלָ֔ה)
then he (וְה֣וּא)
a witness, (עֵ֔ד)
or (א֥וֹ)
he having seen, (רָאָ֖ה)
or (א֣וֹ)
he having known, (יָדָ֑ע)
if (אִם־)
not (ל֥וֹא)
he does testify (יַגִּ֖יד)
then he shall bear (וְנָשָׂ֥א)
his iniquity. (עֲוֺנֽוֹ׃)

I'm not dead set on the meaning of this verse btw. Several of these words can be translated into different English words that might drastically change the meaning, which is why we aim for context, but in this verse, it's very sparse. Still trying to make sure I understand it perfectly! Praise Yahweh!
 
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HARK!

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I'm not dead set on the meaning of this verse btw. Several of these words can be translated into different English words that might drastically change the meaning, which is why we aim for context, but in this verse, it's very sparse. Still trying to make sure I understand it perfectly! Praise Yahweh!

Thank you for your kindness.

I'm not dead set on anything but the truth. Finding the truth can take us for some twists and turns. I don't believe much of what I believed as a child. As we grow; we keep an open mind as to what we "think we know." If we think that we know it all; we stop growing.


In the KJV, (אָלָ֔ה) is most often translated to curse; not that I'm promoting the KJV as the best of translations.

The verse doesn't seem to flow when using the translation "oath;" but it makes more sense with the translation "curse."


Like this:

A soul she steals a wallet.
She (the thief, the criminal) hears the owner of the wallet cursing the thief.
He (a witness to the crime) saw the crime, or knew of the crime.
He said nothing; or he did nothing to seek justice.
He bears his own iniquity.

This is my humble understanding.
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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Thank you for your kindness.

I'm not dead set on anything but the truth. Finding the truth can take us for some twists and turns. I don't believe much of what I believed as a child. As we grow; we keep an open mind as to what we "think we know." If we think that we know it all; we stop growing.


In the KJV, (אָלָ֔ה) is most often translated to curse; not that I'm promoting the KJV as the best of translations.

The verse doesn't seem to flow when using the translation "oath;" but it makes more sense with the translation "curse."


Like this:

A soul she steals a wallet.
She (the thief, the criminal) hears the owner of the wallet cursing the thief.
He (a witness to the crime) saw the crime, or knew of the crime.
He said nothing; or he did nothing to seek justice.
He bears his own iniquity.

This is my humble understanding.

I think that's a fair interpretation of the verse.

It's interesting, I think several of the translations you posted are translating "אָלָה" into one of the following: imprecation, public charge, public adjuration, a public call, notice, a public curse, adjuration, oath, etc.

But almost all of them seem to imply that both the first subject (the soul that was doing the sin) and the second subject (the witness) are the same person, which we both agree does not reflect the Hebrew. (Even if הוא is being used to emphasize that the she is now a he, the "or"s don't mix. I just don't see how they honestly arrive at that conclusion.)

Also, I think we've looked at the verse well enough to know that it doesn't really apply to the situation as recorded in John 8:1-11. I was wondering if it would contradict with how Yahushua is portrayed reacting to the situation, but I don't think it does, not even considering all of the interpretations, unless I'm missing something.

-------

I occurred to me that there is yet another interpretation to John 8:1-11 than the one that I gave in post #12.

If I understand it correctly, the Romans occupying the land of Judah made it so that they couldn't do stonings, and instead they had to go through the Roman legal system. This would be why they brought Yahushua to Pilate after they tried Him in the Sanhedrin, to get permission to kill Him.

And this may be what John 8:6 means by the Pharisees "tempting him." That is, tempting Him to choose either Yahweh's Law and get in trouble with the Romans, or to reject Yahweh and side with the Romans.

With that in mind, could it be that what Christ was writing in the sand were names of Pharisees and sins they had committed worthy of stoning? And that He was basically saying, who gets to stone who first?

I mean, I suppose if they really all wanted to go through with it and all the witness wanted to witness against each other, I suppose Christ would have starting throwing stones and then left them to it, to kill each other!

I think He put their consciences on trial before they made the fateful move to say an oath, or curse to start killing each other, in order to save them from themselves, and teach them a lesson about hypocrisy, and why mercy is not self-condemning.

Just some thoughts.

Praise Yahweh!
 
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HARK!

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I occurred to me that there is yet another interpretation to John 8:1-11 than the one that I gave in post #12.

If I understand it correctly, the Romans occupying the land of Judah made it so that they couldn't do stonings, and instead they had to go through the Roman legal system. This would be why they brought Yahushua to Pilate after they tried Him in the Sanhedrin, to get permission to kill Him.

And this may be what John 8:6 means by the Pharisees "tempting him." That is, tempting Him to choose either Yahweh's Law and get in trouble with the Romans, or to reject Yahweh and side with the Romans.

With that in mind, could it be that what Christ was writing in the sand were names of Pharisees and sins they had committed worthy of stoning? And that He was basically saying, who gets to stone who first?

I mean, I suppose if they really all wanted to go through with it and all the witness wanted to witness against each other, I suppose Christ would have starting throwing stones and then left them to it, to kill each other!

I think He put their consciences on trial before they made the fateful move to say an oath, or curse to start killing each other, in order to save them from themselves, and teach them a lesson about hypocrisy, and why mercy is not self-condemning.

Just some thoughts.

Praise Yahweh!

Again, if this story even took place, Yahshua would have broken Yahweh's law if he had stoned her. He didn't have the two witnesses; and he didn't have the man to be stoned with her. Again, Yahshua had no trouble quoting Yahweh's law. He didn't quote it in this case.

Aside from that Yahshua had no problem breaking Roman law, nor encouraging others to do so. He told his disciples to go out and buy swords. It was illegal for them under Roman law to carry swords. He also was accused of not paying his taxes. I don't believe that it was a false accusation.
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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Again, if this story even took place, Yahshua would have broken Yahweh's law if he had stoned her. He didn't have the two witnesses; and he didn't have the man to be stoned with her. Again, Yahshua had no trouble quoting Yahweh's law. He didn't quote it in this case.

How do you know the Law isn't what He was writing in the ground? Again, the men that committed adultery with her may have been the ones witnessing against her, and if so, He called them out on it, that they would have to stone them too, if they proceeded to witness against her, so they dropped it. The text clearly says that no man condemned her (that is no one witnessed against her under oath.)

Aside from that Yahshua had no problem breaking Roman law, nor encouraging others to do so. He told his disciples to go out and buy swords. It was illegal for them under Roman law to carry swords. He also was accused of not paying his taxes. I don't believe that it was a false accusation.

My point in bringing the Romans up was to establish context. The pharisees were always trying to tempt him, and sometimes so that they could sick the Romans on Him:

Matthew 22:
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

18 But Yahushua perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.​

He didn't need to directly quote the Law here. He was referring to Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 9:6, that Adam was created in the image of Elohiym.
 
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HARK!

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How do you know the Law isn't what He was writing in the ground? Again, the men that committed adultery with her may have been the ones witnessing against her, and if so, He called them out on it, that they would have to stone them too, if they proceeded to witness against her, so they dropped it. The text clearly says that no man condemned her (that is no one witnessed against her under oath.)

You're still assuming that this segment wasn't a fictional later addition.

John 7:53-8:11

Passage omitted in the critical text. See Jesus and the woman taken in adultery

List of major textual variants in the New Testament - Wikipedia
 
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