The death blow to FG2's definitions

[Jack Terrence]

Last month I directed FG2 to Paul's statement in Colossians 1 in which he said that the gospel was preached to "every creature under heaven" (1:23). I said that if the Greek "pasa ktisis" (every creature ) means "every individual," then the logical conclusion would be that every human being had heard the gospel in Paul's day. I noted that such a conclusion would be absurd.

But to my surprise FG2 actually argued for this conclusion. He said that every individual heard the gospel in Paul's time.

***Well, FG2's definitions are about to be dealt a death blow.***

AFTER Paul said that the gospel was preached to "every creature," he asked the Colossians to pray that God would open up a door for him to preach the gospel (4:2-4).

2 Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving; 3 meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, 4 that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.

There it is! Paul asked the Colossians to pray that God would open a door for them to preach the message for which he was in chains. Paul was in chains for preaching the gospel. This means that the term "pasa ktisis" in 1:23 CANNOT mean "every individual."

If every individual had heard the gospel, then why would Paul ask for prayer that God would open a door for him to preach it? Paul asked for this AFTER he had said that the gospel was preached to "every creature under heaven."

 

[FreeGrace2]

Last month I directed FG2 to Paul's statement in Colossians 1 in which he said that the gospel was preached to "every creature under heaven" (1:23). I said that if the Greek "pasa ktisis" (every creature ) means "every individual," then the logical conclusion would be that every human being had heard the gospel in Paul's day. I noted that such a conclusion would be absurd.

But to my surprise FG2 actually argued for this conclusion. He said that every individual heard the gospel in Paul's time.

***Well, FG2's definitions are about to be dealt a death blow.***

AFTER Paul said that the gospel was preached to "every creature," he asked the Colossians to pray that God would open up a door for him to preach the gospel (4:2-4).

2 Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving; 3 meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, 4 that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.

There it is! Paul asked the Colossians to pray that God would open a door for them to preach the message for which he was in chains. Paul was in chains for preaching the gospel. This means that the term "pasa ktisis" in 1:23 CANNOT mean "every individual."

If every individual had heard the gospel, then why would Paul ask for prayer that God would open a door for him to preach it? Paul asked for this AFTER he had said that the gospel was preached to "every creature under heaven."

Wow, you must be feeling good about now!

Only one problem: you weren't really paying much attention to what I said, which you even acknowledged in your boast, I mean, post.

Here's your own admission of what I said:

But to my surprise FG2 actually argued for this conclusion. He said that every individual heard the gospel in Paul's time.

Where did I say that every single individual heard the gospel the moment he wrote Col 1:23? I said in Paul's time. Sure, he wasn't done when he wrote Col 1:23. But the known world was evangelized during Paul's time.

Would you be able to cite the thread and quote # that you were referring to? You know, just for chuckles.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Wow, you must be feeling good about now!

Actually I am.

Only one problem: you weren't really paying much attention to what I said, which you even acknowledged in your boast, I mean, post.

Here's your own admission of what I said:

Where did I say that every single individual heard the gospel the moment he wrote Col 1:23? I said in Paul's time. Sure, he wasn't done when he wrote Col 1:23. But the known world was evangelized during Paul's time.

Would you be able to cite the thread and quote # that you were referring to?

I remember that you said it. But I can't find it.

So are you admitting that the term "pasa ktisis" (every creature) in Colossians 1:23 cannot mean every individual? And if so, then are you prepared to admit that it cannot mean every individual in Mark 16:15?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually I am.

For no discernable reason.

I remember that you said it. But I can't find it.

How convenient for you. Doesn't it seem reasonable to have proof of something before you make a claim that you now can't prove?

So are you admitting that the term "pasa ktisis" (every creature) in Colossians 1:23 cannot mean every individual? And if so, then are you prepared to admit that it cannot mean every individual in Mark 16:15?

How about finding this supposed statement of mine that you are claiming first? I would like to see the whole context of it. Until then, what's to admit?

 

[Jack Terrence]

Doesn't it seem reasonable to have proof of something before you make a claim that you now can't prove?

Yes I should have, but I was counting on your being honest about it. You also said that that the term "pasa ktisis" in Revelation 5:13 means every individual. It says that "every creature" will worship the Lamb. Am I jolting your memory yet?

How about finding this supposed statement of mine that you are claiming first? I would like to see the whole context of it. Until then, what's to admit?

It looks like you found your way out of having to answer the substance of my post.

But be warned. If you continue to assert that terms such as "every creature" and "all men" must mean "every individual," then you do so with the full knowledge that they may not. Your integrity is on the line if you really care about such things.

 

[hedrick]

Obviously not every creature had heard about Christ. Forgetting whether all means every individual or all classes, not even all classes of people had heard it.

However this section of Col. is talking about the universality of Christ's work. In him everything was created and all things hold together. That's cosmic. It makes no sense to say that he only created or holds together some individuals.

The word "proclaimed" in 1:23 has a basic meaning of a herald's proclamation. The most reasonable sense in which the message has been proclaimed to the whole world is that it is addressed to the whole world. It's a message of universal scope. That doesn't mean that everyone has heard it yet, but it's intended for everyone, and of course it's our job to make sure that everyone actually does hear it.

Some interpreters take more restricted readings, like the known world. But I think that fails to do justice to the universal vision shown in the whole passage.

There is, however, another possible reading. Rom 10:18 quotes Ps 19:4: "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." The original context is the heavens telling the glory of God. In Rom 10, Paul quotes the passage to say that the whole world has heard God's message. The logical connections aren't ironclad here, but right before this quote Paul is speaking of the need of people to proclaim Christ. How can people believe if they haven't heard. However, says Paul, everyone has heard. Because God's voice has gone out to the whole earth. Assuming he isn't misquoting Ps 19, he means that there's enough for people to know about God even if Christian preachers haven't reached them. See Rom 1:19.

Col 1 identifies Christ as the agent of the creation. If the author of Col envisions the Gospel as Jesus does, as the reign of God, it's just possible that 1:23 means that the whole world has in fact heard the Gospel, in sense of Ps 19:4. I think this is less likely than my other suggestion, that 1:23 means that the Gospel is addressed to every individual, not that every individual has heard it yet.

 

[Jack Terrence]

However this section of Col. is talking about the universality of Christ's work.

It says that the gospel was PREACHED to "every creature (pasa ktisis) under heaven."

In him everything was created and all things hold together. That's cosmic. It makes no sense to say that he only created or holds together some individuals.

It says that Christ is the firstborn of "every creature" (pasa ktisis). Christ is not the firstborn of every human being. He is the firstborn of "many brethren." It means that He is the chief son (firstborn) in the family of God.

That doesn't mean that everyone has heard it yet, but it's intended for everyone, and of course it's our job to make sure that everyone actually does hear it.

The gospel is not intended for everyone. God allows thousands of men to die every day without ever offering Christ to them. Historically such terms as "every creature" and "all men" simply meant that the gospel was not exclusive to the Jews, but was for men of all nations and classes.

 

[hedrick]

It says that the gospel was PREACHED to "every creature (pasa ktisis) under heaven."

It says that Christ is the firstborn of "every creature" (pasa ktisis). Christ is not the firstborn of every human being. He is the firstborn of "many brethren." It means that He is the chief son (firstborn) in the family of God.

The gospel is not intended for everyone. God allows thousands of men to die every day without ever offering Christ to them. Historically such terms as "every creature" and "all men" simply meant that the gospel was not exclusive to the Jews, but was for men of all nations and classes.

So only the elect were created in Christ and only the elect hold together in him? You're misreading Col badly.

FYI, Calvin agrees that up to 18 is universal in scope. He thinks at 18 that the focus changes to the Church, though he connects 23 with our commission to preach the Gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15).

 

[Jack Terrence]

So only the elect were created in Christ and only the elect hold together in him? You're misreading Col badly.

It says that He is the FIRSTBORN of every creature. The firstborn is the chief son and supreme brother in a family. That's how Paul applies it. "He is the head of the body." Therefore, the term "every creature" refers to God's people.

FYI, Calvin agrees that up to 18 is universal in scope. He thinks at 18 that the focus changes to the Church, though he connects 23 with our commission to preach the Gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15).

I was just talking to a Calvinist brother at church this last Sunday who acknowledges that Calvin said many things to help the Arminian case. This is unfortunate. His commentary on Romans is terrible. Every Calvinist I know who has read Calvin's commentary on Romans says it is awful. To read it makes you think he was an Arminian.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes I should have, but I was counting on your being honest about it.

Are you claiming that I'm not being honest about your claim? I have no idea whether I ever agreed or not. That's why I asked for thread and post #.

You also said that that the term "pasa ktisis" in Revelation 5:13 means every individual. It says that "every creature" will worship the Lamb. Am I jolting your memory yet?

As I recall, my comments were in reference to the OT passage, also quoted by Paul several times in the NT that "every knee will bow". Doesn't say "most" or some knees" will bow.

It looks like you found your way out of having to answer the substance of my post.

OK, what is the "substance" of your post?

But be warned. If you continue to assert that terms such as "every creature" and "all men" must mean "every individual," then you do so with the full knowledge that they may not. Your integrity is on the line if you really care about such things.

I'm more than aware of those passages that use terms in figurative language. As Rom 1:8 is one of those examples of the use of "whole world" which, from the context, cannot possibly refer to every human being in history. It was referring to the general area only.

Or when the Pharisees used the phrase hyperbolically when claiming that "the whole world" was following after Jesus.

The problem is when a text can support all of humanity throughout history, yet Calvinists just close their eyes to it and bring up these red herrings about other passages where the phrase cannot mean every person in history.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Obviously not every creature had heard about Christ. Forgetting whether all means every individual or all classes, not even all classes of people had heard it.

However this section of Col. is talking about the universality of Christ's work. In him everything was created and all things hold together. That's cosmic. It makes no sense to say that he only created or holds together some individuals.

The word "proclaimed" in 1:23 has a basic meaning of a herald's proclamation. The most reasonable sense in which the message has been proclaimed to the whole world is that it is addressed to the whole world. It's a message of universal scope. That doesn't mean that everyone has heard it yet, but it's intended for everyone, and of course it's our job to make sure that everyone actually does hear it.

Some interpreters take more restricted readings, like the known world. But I think that fails to do justice to the universal vision shown in the whole passage.

There is, however, another possible reading. Rom 10:18 quotes Ps 19:4: "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." The original context is the heavens telling the glory of God. In Rom 10, Paul quotes the passage to say that the whole world has heard God's message. The logical connections aren't ironclad here, but right before this quote Paul is speaking of the need of people to proclaim Christ. How can people believe if they haven't heard. However, says Paul, everyone has heard. Because God's voice has gone out to the whole earth. Assuming he isn't misquoting Ps 19, he means that there's enough for people to know about God even if Christian preachers haven't reached them. See Rom 1:19.

Col 1 identifies Christ as the agent of the creation. If the author of Col envisions the Gospel as Jesus does, as the reign of God, it's just possible that 1:23 means that the whole world has in fact heard the Gospel, in sense of Ps 19:4. I think this is less likely than my other suggestion, that 1:23 means that the Gospel is addressed to every individual, not that every individual has heard it yet.

Good post, hedrick!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I was just talking to a Calvinist brother at church this last Sunday who acknowledges that Calvin said many things to help the Arminian case. This is unfortunate. His commentary on Romans is terrible. Every Calvinist I know who has read Calvin's commentary on Romans says it is awful. To read it makes you think he was an Arminian.

You mean that John Calvin wasn't as Calvinistic as you guys??