• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

The "Dead in Christ" and what does it mean?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Valetic, Jun 7, 2018.

  1. The Ark Hive Mind

    The Ark Hive Mind The Ark Hive

    85
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    That speaks of the 'firstfruits' resurrected, which was explicitly mentioned in the previous response, post 8, which said:

    "Grave/dust. We all go to Heaven together, as Paul, Job, and so many others say, as Jesus said, He has to return for us all. [Jesus, Enoch, Moses, Elijah and the firstfruits are the typological and only exceptions]."
    The group of the 'firstfruits' were resurrected from the grave, dust of the earth. They were not in heaven beforehand. They were resurrected when Jesus was resurrected, and Jesus ascended to Heaven with His trophies of victory, but it was not everyone in all the graves of the world, but only a select group ["many"] around Jerusalem, where the earthquakes [at Jesus death, and at His resurrection, from Gabriel descending from Heaven to roll away the stone] took place.

    They do not need to go back to sleep, they are resurrected permanently as Moses was, as Jesus was. Only those in the grave, sleep.

    The text you have cited demonstrates exactly what was presented to you.

    The 'firstfruits' are mentioned in several places:

    Exo_23:19 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

    Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

    Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

    Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

    Psa_68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

    1Co_15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    1Co_15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    Eph_4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    They could not enter heaven before the fulfillment of this Feast by Jesus and could not ascend on their own without Christ Jesus.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  2. The Ark Hive Mind

    The Ark Hive Mind The Ark Hive

    85
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    The witnesses are angels, since the 'witnesses' are called 'clouds', and were around even in the days of Abel [when no one was dead yet]. See what was stated by Paul:

    Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

    Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

    Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.​

    Thus "Abel" received "witness", even "good report" by the angels.

    Notice Heb. 11:4 carefully:

    Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.​

    In scripture, angels are associated with 'clouds'; even a storm:

    Psa_50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

    Psa 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

    Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

    Psa 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

    Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

    Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

    Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

    Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

    Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

    Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

    In symbol, the clouds are Heavenly waters. Waters are beings. Thus Heavenly waters, the thick clouds that God surrounds Himself with are Heavenly beings, the angels of Heaven.

    Deu_4:11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.

    Psa 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.
    The angels at Sinai, are the holy ones, the saints that Jesus comes with [see also Psa. 68:17; Dan. 7:10; Rev. 5:11]:

    Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

    Deu 33:2 ויאמר יהוה מסיני בא וזרח משׂעיר למו הופיע מהר פארן ואתה מרבבת קדשׁ
    מימינו אשׁדת למו׃

    Deu 33:2 καὶ εἶπεν Κύριος ἐκ Σινα ἥκει καὶ ἐπέφανεν ἐκ Σηιρ ἡμῖν καὶ κατέσπευσεν ἐξ ὄρους Φαραν σὺν μυριάσιν Καδης, ἐκ δεξιῶν αὐτοῦ ἄγγελοι μετ᾿ αὐτοῦ.
    Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

    1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    2Th 1:7 και υμιν τοις θλιβομενοις ανεσιν μεθ ημων εν τη αποκαλυψει του κυριου ιησου απ ουρανου μετ αγγελων δυναμεως αυτου
    Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    Jud 1:14 προεφητευσεν δε και τουτοις εβδομος απο αδαμ ενωχ λεγων ιδου ηλθεν κυριος εν μυριασιν αγιαις αυτου
    Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.​
     
  3. The Ark Hive Mind

    The Ark Hive Mind The Ark Hive

    85
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Jesus, the word of God, the son of the Father, was from eternity [Jhn. 1; Heb. 1]. You and I were not. Chosen in Christ, is different than being with Christ before everything, unless you are suggesting the Mormon doctrine, of the eternal essence/intelligences? God's foreknowledge is at play in those verses, not our existence in Heaven beforehand. Christ Jesus is the 'elect' of God [Isa. 42:1; Matt. 12:18] in whom we are accepted [Eph. 1:6], for all the promises of God are yea and amen in Him [2 Cor. 1:20].

    Therefore, as stated, you cannot "go back" to a place you have never been. Christ Jesus has been there, and came from there, but we have not ~ yet.

    I am not suggesting we will not enter heaven. I merely pointed out the wrong idea that the words "go back" would imply.
     
  4. The Ark Hive Mind

    The Ark Hive Mind The Ark Hive

    85
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Indeed, as already stated, Moses, who had been resurrected permanently by Jesus and glorified and taken to heaven, appears with the glorified and translated Elijah on the mount of transfiguration. This was stated in post 8:

    "Grave/dust. We all go to Heaven together, as Paul, Job, and so many others say, as Jesus said, He has to return for us all. [Jesus, Enoch, Moses, Elijah and the firstfruits are the typological and only exceptions]."​

    They are alive, not dead and asleep. Why? See the following texts: 2 Ki. 2:1-25; Matt. 16:28, 17:1-13; Mrk. 9:1-13; Luk. 9:27-37; Rom. 5:14; Jud. 1:9; 2 Pet. 1:1-21; and various others: Deut. 4:21-22, 31:2,14,16, 34:5-8; Matt. 11:24, 16:14, 27:47,49; Mrk. 6:15, 8:28, 15:35-36; Luk. 1:17, 4:25-26, 9:7-9,18-20,54; Jhn, 1:21,25; Rom. 11:2; Jam. 5:17

    Consider prayerfully:

    Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.​

    Why stop at Moses? It was because he was the first one permanently resurrected by the Son of God, see the listed texts, 'various others'. For instance:

    Deu_34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

    Deu_34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

    Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
    Moses and Elijah, and Enoch and the firstfruits, along with Jesus, are indeed alive and in Heaven, and not dead, nor sleeping in the dust of the earth. They are the only human exceptions, even given as examples of the end resurrections and translations and even of the special resurrection as noted in the previous post 20. All other humans are on earth, either living or dead [sleeping in the dust, good or evil].
     
  5. Paul of Eugene OR

    Paul of Eugene OR Finally Old Enough Supporter

    +1,831
    Baptist
    Married
    Nonsense. The writer of Hebrews just finished the great roll call of the faithful in chapter 11, citing old testament saint after old testament saint, and having just done that, states:

    "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us . . . ."(Hebrews 12:1)

    That word "therefore" links this thought to the previous verses, the OT saints, and clearly it is the OT saints who are the witnesses.
     
  6. The Ark Hive Mind

    The Ark Hive Mind The Ark Hive

    85
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Please notice the "we also" as Paul makes the comparison of the then Christians to the past elders, in that both groups have the same 'so great a cloud of witnesses' [angels, which watch this world].

    Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,​

    Wherefore, links the previous chapter 11, as stated, all the way back to verse 1-4:

    Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

    Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
    Those who 'watch' us from Heaven are the 'witnesses', the angels the holy ones:

    Dan_4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

    Dan_4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

    Dan_4:23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;​
     
  7. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

    822
    +536
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    If we die and our body decays to dust, where does our soul and conscious go? It's not in our body because it's dust of the earth, so where is it? just floating around in the great abyss? Somewhere in the abyss of the spirtual realm? Is it "gone but not forgotten"?
     
  8. The Ark Hive Mind

    The Ark Hive Mind The Ark Hive

    85
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    God's word says:

    Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

    'the living soul', being 'the man' is formed from 'the dust of the ground', and that which is 'breathed into his nostrils the breath of life', which is God's breath. When the person/creature dies it returns to the dust from which it is made, and the breath of the life of God, His spirit, returns to Himself [Ecc. 12:7]. We are dust and ashes, filled with the breath of life of God.

    The words 'living soul' in this instance, means living being/person/creature and it can die.

    Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.​

    Consider 'soul' refers to man and beast:

    Lev 22:11 But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat.

    Num 31:28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:

    Jos 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

    Jos 10:28 And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho.

    Jos 10:30 And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.

    Jos 10:32 And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.

    Jos 10:35 And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish.

    Jos 10:37 And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein.

    Jos 10:39 And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.

    Jos 10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

    Jos 11:11 And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

    Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

    Lam. 1:19 I called for my lovers, but they deceived me: my priests and mine elders gave up the ghost in the city, while they sought their meat to relieve their souls.

    1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Eze 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

    Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

    The 'soul', the person/creature goes to the grave:

    Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

    Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

    Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

    Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
    The bible calls this period of waiting in the grave 'nakedness' [being unclothed] and 'sleep'.

    Lazarus was in the tomb and is so again. Jesus was in the tomb and no longer. David is still in the tomb. Stephen is in the grave. Abraham is in the grave.
     
  9. Paul of Eugene OR

    Paul of Eugene OR Finally Old Enough Supporter

    +1,831
    Baptist
    Married
    Daniel wrote about angelic watchers and the author of Hebrews (certainly not Paul) wrote about the OT saints as witnesses. I'll agree angels can watch . . . why not? Doesn't rule out saints in heaven witnessing as well.
     
  10. Paul of Eugene OR

    Paul of Eugene OR Finally Old Enough Supporter

    +1,831
    Baptist
    Married
    That mystery I will leave for God to explain to us all some day.
     
  11. The Ark Hive Mind

    The Ark Hive Mind The Ark Hive

    85
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Abel was the first to die. There were no 'saints' [humans] in heaven yet [not until Enoch]. Paul has the same witnesses that Abel has. Angels.

    Notice what the Bible says of those who die

    Job_14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.

    Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

    Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

    They sleep. Knowing nothing. 'Doing' nothing. 'Accomplishing' nothing.
     
  12. The Ark Hive Mind

    The Ark Hive Mind The Ark Hive

    85
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    1Th_4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
     
  13. The Ark Hive Mind

    The Ark Hive Mind The Ark Hive

    85
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Let me share again on this [I am sorry I didn't see this post originally, and did not intend to ignore, my apologies]. Consider the parallels in the following passages written by Paul, and I will underline certain phrases, and see the connections and times thereof:

    2 Cor. 5:1-8

    2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.​

    2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
    2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.​

    2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.​

    2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
    2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
    2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

    Rom. 8:19-23

    Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:​

    2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.​

    1 Cor. 15:51-55

    1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?​

    Eph. 1:13-14

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.​

    2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.​

    Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

    Rom. 8:11

    Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.​

    Col. 3:4

    Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.​

    1 Thess. 4:13-18

    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    [that is God will bring the resurrected/translated back with Jesus to Heaven]​
    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.​

    Jhn. 14:1-4

    Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
    Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​

    2 Thess. 2:1-4

    2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    2 Tim. 4:6-8

    2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
    2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
    2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.​

    1 Jhn. 3:2

    1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​

    Job [which is where Paul is qupting from] and Psalms

    Job_7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

    Job_10:9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

    Job_17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

    Job_20:11 His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust.

    Job_21:26 They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.

    Job_40:13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.

    Job_14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

    Job_14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

    Job_14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

    2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.​

    Job_14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

    Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

    Rev_15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

    &c.​

    Job_14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

    Job_14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

    Psa_50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.​
     
  14. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    +1,552
    Christian
    Job was in extreme suffering and anguish,
    Will you also accept this as a spiritual truth from v7,
    'My eye will never again see good.'
    Arguing from your pov, you should be supporting this then as a truth that saved christians will never see anything good, which is obviously evil thing to believe. You should claim this for your own self to be consistent in your doctrine or you are a hypocrite.
    But I do not want you to believe a lie.

    Job did see good again and in his flesh, so what he said was a lie spoken out from his terrible suffering. You can not expose any spiritual truth from Job as having to do with eternal life after death when what is spoken goes against the other scriptures.

    Job 7 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Job: My Suffering Is Comfortless
    1 “Is there not a time of hard service for man on earth?
    Are not his days also like the days of a hired man?
    2 Like a servant who [a]earnestly desires the shade,
    And like a hired man who eagerly looks for his wages,
    3 So I have been allotted months of futility,
    And wearisome nights have been appointed to me.
    4 When I lie down, I say, ‘When shall I arise,
    And the night be ended?’
    For I have had my fill of tossing till dawn.
    5 My flesh is caked with worms and dust,
    My skin is cracked and breaks out afresh.

    6 “My days are swifter than a weaver’s shuttle,
    And are spent without hope.
    7 Oh, remember that my life is a breath!
    My eye will never again see good.
     
  15. The Ark Hive Mind

    The Ark Hive Mind The Ark Hive

    85
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    I am simply quoting the scripture for what it says, and lined them up where they repeated and gave further detail.

    That Job desired to die because of the misery upon him, does not negate the truth he spake about death, burial and resurrection, neither for Solomon:

    Job:

    Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

    Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.​

    Remember that Jesus is the resurrection and the Life, and Job spoke of that redeemer, who would redeem from the grave, and the sleep of death:

    Job_19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:​

    Solomon:

    Ecc 12:9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.

    Ecc 12:10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.

    Ecc 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.​

    Remember that the book of Job is inspired of God, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and is good for doctrine, etc. Don't forget Paul was citing Job almost word for word.
     
  16. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    +1,552
    Christian
    v7, 'My eye will never again see good.'
    I can see this is in your future if you persist on your course.

    Satan also quotes scripture
     
  17. The Ark Hive Mind

    The Ark Hive Mind The Ark Hive

    85
    +31
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    You are claiming to be a prophet? Yet it is written,

    Mat_5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
    God is good, Matt 19:17, Mar. 10:18, Luk. 18:19.

    1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.​

    1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
    It is what Job said:

    Job_19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

    Job_19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.​

    So I have noticed, Matt. 4:6, Luk. 4:10.

    Satan said in the beginning, quoting some of God's words, but adding also and taking away from what is written:

    Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.​

    Yet God said:

    Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    Conditional immortality is of God. Unconditional and inherent immortality (immortal soul/spirit theology) is of the devil, and is what all pagans believe, whether ancestral worship, animist, and so on, which is why satan led king Saul to believe that he could communicate with the dead, Samuel who was in the grave, asleep. Saul, who had at one time been born again of the Holy Ghost, and walking with God, eventually grieved away the Holy Ghost, and died for his unbelief in the truth, which brought him to sin by seeking a familiar spirit (a devil), and it cost him eternal life:

    1Ch_10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;​
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  18. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

    822
    +536
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    How do we know Saul was a man born of God?
     
  19. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

    +708
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Is Paradise the 'dust of the earth'?

    Luke 23:43
    And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    How could the thief be with Jesus in Paradise the day he died?

    Paul was caught up to Paradise. Does that mean he was caught up in the dust of the earth? Is the tree of life in the midst of the dust of the earth?

    2 Corinthians 12:4
    How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    Revelation 2:7
    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
     
  20. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

    +995
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    US-Republican
    There is no "soul sleep", a faulty metaphor.

    The spirit is immortal and is judged.

    Hebrews 9:27
    And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die (mortal Body / Soul combo) once and after this comes judgment,(of immortal Spirit)

    Body / Soul combo is mortal and houses the immortal spirit.

    Luke 23:46
    And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last. (Body /Soul combo bled to death)

    JESUS' DEATH...a BELIEVER'S DEATH...then what?

    Let's try it this way....

    Jesus the God-Man had a composition generally like ours (BUT unique / only begotten)....

    He was divided into 3 parts:
    1. SPIRIT = (God "Image" and Person of the God Head...pneuma),
    2. SOUL = (~personality interacting with body....psyche) and
    3. BODY = (~man's machine, controlled by brain/CNS...sarx)

    Step #1 ...
    Jesus surrendered his SPIRIT on the Cross...before the end of "Day" 1
    Luke 23:46
    Jesus called out with a loud voice,
    “Father, into your hands I commit my SPIRIT.”

    Step #2
    When he had said this, he breathed his last. (Body/Soul combo bled to death / "died" without decay)

    Step #3
    Body/Soul mummified and entombed.......before the end of "Day" 1

    Step#4
    Luke 23:43...Jesus: 1 of 7 sayings from the Cross..
    Jesus answered him (thief) , "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."...(on the cross)...before earthly Resurrection!
    ...Jesus was in "Paradise" + "Hades" = Abraham's Busom between the time of Body/Soul death and "resurrection" of His SPECIAL "special body".

    Jesus' Spirit goes to the "Paradise" side of "Abraham's Busom" to free
    the souls/spirits of believers, who were awaiting for Messsiah, into heaven.
    The unbelievers in "Hades" were released for eternal judgment....
    ...during the of "Days" before reunion of SPIRIT / SOUL / BODY = "spirit body"
    SEE: Luke 19:16-31

    1 Peter 3: 18-19 (NIV with my comments)
    (Jesus the Christ's BODY) being put to death in the flesh, but made (spiritually) alive by (God) the (Holy) Spirit,
    19 by whom also He (resurrected Jesus) went and preached to (~released) the spirits (souls) in prison,...
    ("Paradise" side of "Abraham's Bosom")

    "Paradise"* - The ACTUAL spiritual abode was: "angel populated", "comfort(ing)", containing secret "inexpressible things"
    ---------------------
    "Hades""** (Greek) = ~Hell = ~Gehenna (place of fire?) = ~Sheol (lowest grave?)
    The ACTUAL spiritual abode was for the unbelieving and unsaved souls / unborn spirits of the dead,
    AFTER physical death and BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgement (Revelations 20: 11-15 ) ...sheep or goats.
    The abode was : CONSCIOUS, TORMENTS/AGONY, NO 2nd CHANCE, NO communication with the LIVING, and you can see "Paradise".

    Step#5
    Jesus:..."HE IS RISEN!....resurrection....on the "day" that we now call by tradition "Sunday".

    What I choose to be BELIEVE:
    " To be absent from the BODY/SOUL (earthly death) is to be present (SPIRITually) with the LORD ("eternal life")".
    ...a paraphrase of Paul, emphasizing differences in BODY / SPIRIT.

    For the THREE parts of man, SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY,
    SEE:
    1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NIV)
    May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
    May your whole SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews 4:12 (NASB) ....difference in SOUL and SPIRIT
    For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
    and piercing as far as the DIVISION of SOUL and SPIRIT,
    of both joints and marrow, (BODY)
    and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.(spiritual conscience)

    Luke 16: 19-31...Jewish Tradition.... and Jesus' descent to set the captives free...
    TWO unseen and separated spiritual PLACES for the bodies / souls of the DEAD...= "Paradise"* + "Hades"** =
    19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
    20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
    21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
    22 "The time came when the beggar died and the ANGELS carried him to Abraham's side.
    (Abraham's BOSOM = "PARADISE" = place for those in or awaiting for Jesus the Messiah /GOD's presence)
    The rich man also died and was buried.
    23 In HELL (HADES), where he was in TORMENT, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
    24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus
    to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this FIRE.'
    25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
    while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
    26 And besides all this, between us and you a great CHASM has been fixed,
    so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
    27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house,
    28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this PLACE of TORMENT.'
    29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
    30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
    31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone RISES from the DEAD.' "

    2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV)
    10 For we (BELIEVERS) must all appear before the "judgment (bema = awards platform) seat of Christ",
    that each one may receive what is due him for the things done (WORKS) while in the BODY,
    whether good or bad....

    1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS.

    2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV) + 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV) + Romans 14:10b,12 (1-23)

    UN-Believer's SPIRITUAL POSITION is JUDGED, and their unforgiven sins will be seen and JUDGED.
    They will justly SENTENCED....at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20).
     
Loading...