The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

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nolidad

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Be nice if you could spell 'the' correctly!
The trinity? God does give Jesus all authority on earth. But in heaven?; no.

So do you accept or reject the Trinity, which is a nonbiblical word describing Jesus as being God or not as also with the Holy Spirit?
 
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nolidad

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Yes I totally reject a 'rapture to heaven. Jesus refutes it. John 3:13.
There will be a gathering when Jesus Returns. To where His is. Matthew 24:30-31
The usual nasty aspersion.

John 3:13
King James Version

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I fully agree! No one could ascent to heaven as of that point in time because Jesus had yet to shed His blood.

Butr when a believer dies now- his body goes into teh ground but the person goes to heaven!

As Paul writes:

  1. 2 Corinthians 5:6
    Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  2. 2 Corinthians 5:8
    We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
So when we leave the body- we go to be with the Lord! Why now? Because Jesus has shed His blood and poured it out on the mercy seat in Heaven.

So let me ask you this. where do believers go when they are caught up to meet the Lord in the air?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
King James Version

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Also how can the church marry Jesus in heaven if we are not there prior to His return?

19) 1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

See verse 1? voice of many people IN heaven!

Then see what follows? Glad tidings for those invited to the wedding feast!

Then Jesus returns to earth!
 
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keras

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Butr when a believer dies now- his body goes into teh ground but the person goes to heaven!
THE, not teh!
No scriptural support for this fanciful notion?
Many scriptures say the dead lie in their graves, they know nothing. Eccl 9:5-6
So let me ask you this. where do believers go when they are caught up to meet the Lord in the air?
They meet Him in the clouds then go to Jerusalem, where He will be for the next 1000 years.
Also how can the church marry Jesus in heaven if we are not there prior to His return?
We are not told where the Marriage Supper will be, but I can confidently assert that it isn't in heaven. To go there requires Spiritual bodies and that does not happen until after the Millennium, at the GWT Judgment.
See verse 1? voice of many people IN heaven!
Revelation 18:2 tells us who those many people are. They are dead martyrs, whose souls are allowed to cry out at times. Revelation 6:9-11
So if you aspire to be one of them, just put your head on the chopping block of the 'beast'. Revelation 13:15
 
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keras

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"Hosea does not have in mind the resurrection of Jesus when he utters the phrase the third day he will restore us (v.2). The device of stating consecutive numbers (2....3) is fairly common in the Old testament. In Amos 1:2-2-6 this numerical sequence seems to designate many sins, whereas in Hosea it seems to denote a quick occurrence."
What absolute nonsense!
This type of comment is as useless as all get out! We would never understand much at all with this sort of exegesis.
Your other longwinded posts are unworthy and unnecessary of any comment. As you say, the lurkers here can see who has the truth.
 
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eclipsenow

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I get it, eschatology is not your thing. Why are you compelled to change Scripture to say eschatology is not a thing?
Eschatology is so much more an Amil thing than a futurist end-times-tables guessing competition! From the moment Adam and Eve bit the forbidden fruit and God promised them a serpent-crusher, we were living in eschatological times. Right now we live in the last days - have been since Peter said we were at Pentecost and since Hebrews 1 and basically the whole thrust of how the Old Testament relates to the New Testament. Indeed, my Reformed Amil eschatology makes Jesus and what he accomplished through his death and resurrection so much bigger! Ideas of sacrifice, temple, Israel, even the holy land are fulfilled, upgraded, translated, and amplified. Seeing futurists cramp them down into narrow literalistic silly end-times-tables makes them little again. Silly. Trivial.

If we are in a generation to heed the Revelation sermon, then 1000 years is still future, because John did not say the 1000 years starts when the church thinks it starts. John says the 1000 years starts when God says it will start.
You've misunderstood the whole category of how to read Revelation.
It's not a forward march but a waltz, not linear but repeating, not predictive but descriptive, not a timetable but a sermon for various general situations that will crop up this side of eternity.

Revelation is just the same sermon as it has been for the last 1990 years. Every generation has faced the same world every morning they wake up and see the sun in the sky. Nothing in this sermon has happened that this sermon says to be looking for. The generation after 70AD knew this fact. What changed in 1960 to what those in 80 knew? Nothing has changed. Literally, the 1000 years in Revelation 20 is still just around the corner as it has been the last 1990 years.
Well, it sounds like you're a category of futurist I haven't really met before - or maybe just in a long time - as do you think all the other stuff except the 1000 years has been happening?

If you want to say it has been symbolically around the same symbolic corner for an indefinite long period of time, go for it.
Amils don't say that.
We say we've in the 1000 years - and have been since the Last Days began at Pentecost.
That 1000 is just a Hebrew number symbol for a gazillion.

Kim Riddlebarger introduces his article this way - I'll leave you with the link to read further below:-

Most American Evangelicals are firmly committed to the idea that an earthly millennial age will begin immediately after our Lord Jesus Christ’s Second Advent. Since premillennialism is so dominant in American church circles, many who encounter historic Protestantism for the first time are quite surprised when they discover that all of the Protestant Reformers and the entire Reformed and Lutheran traditions are amillennial. Amillennialism is that understanding of eschatology which sees the millennium not as a future golden age as does premillennialism (the age of the church triumphant), but instead as the present course of history between the First and Second Advent’s of our Lord (the age of the church militant). And indeed, I am sure that there are many readers who will express shock and disappointment upon learning of my own amillennial convictions. But I am convinced, however, that many readers simply do not understand the basic end-times scenario found in the New Testament. Part of the problem is that dispensational premillennial writers have completely dominated Christian media and publishing. There are literally hundreds of books, churches, and parachurch ministries all devoted to taking premillennialism and the “pretribulation” rapture idea to the masses. And so, I can only lament the fact that my own tradition has done so little to produce popular books introducing and defending Amillennialism. It is my guess that many who read this article will have never heard the case for the classical position held by the church regarding the return of Christ and the millennial age.
A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger
 
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Timtofly

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Eschatology is so much more an Amil thing than a futurist end-times-tables guessing competition! From the moment Adam and Eve bit the forbidden fruit and God promised them a serpent-crusher, we were living in eschatological times. Right now we live in the last days - have been since Peter said we were at Pentecost and since Hebrews 1 and basically the whole thrust of how the Old Testament relates to the New Testament. Indeed, my Reformed Amil eschatology makes Jesus and what he accomplished through his death and resurrection so much bigger! Ideas of sacrifice, temple, Israel, even the holy land are fulfilled, upgraded, translated, and amplified. Seeing futurists cramp them down into narrow literalistic silly end-times-tables makes them little again. Silly. Trivial.
How can a non thing be something? The end times did not start at Adam. Adam was on earth for 1000 years before placed in the Garden. You do not accept literal time, so you cram the last days into all of known time. That does not make events bigger, that generalizes all events of history. Peter was as convinced as you are these have been the last days. Except he was not aware of the last 1990 years. This year is the start of the literal last days. So this still is not your "thing". That is fine. Since either you are ready for anything even if the beginning ends up at the end, or there never will be a beginning at all.
 
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nolidad

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THE, not teh!
No scriptural support for this fanciful notion?
Many scriptures say the dead lie in their graves, they know nothing. Eccl 9:5-6

Tell you what, when you get your doctrine right, I will get my spelling of "THE" right more often.

But as for Scriptural support?

2 Corinthians 5:5-8
King James Version

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


When we are absent from "THE" body we are present with the Lord! The state of the dead was taught by God slowly beginning with David.

They meet Him in the clouds then go to Jerusalem, where He will be for the next 1000 years.

Scripture??

We are not told where the Marriage Supper will be, but I can confidently assert that it isn't in heaven. To go there requires Spiritual bodies and that does not happen until after the Millennium, at the GWT Judgment.

Well I agree that the marriage SUPPER does not take place in heaven. But the marriage does take place in heaven as REv. 19 unambiguously shows and declares!

And after the millenium heaven comes down to earth!

And you forget that the saints have received their glorified bodies . This happens at teh great snatching away which occurs before the Great tribulation.

Revelation 18:2 tells us who those many people are. They are dead martyrs, whose souls are allowed to cry out at times. Revelation 6:9-11
So if you aspire to be one of them, just put your head on the chopping block of the 'beast'. Revelation 13:15

Revelation 6:9-11
King James Version

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


But they are in heaven and you said no one is there! Can't have it both ways you know! But these are some of the 144,000 killed, the clue is that their fellowservants and brethren!

But Rev. 19 is announcing the wedding of Jesus not the wedding supper which takes place on eareth and it is the church that marries Jesus!

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

While I cannot say definitively, I believe that the voices of many people are the OT saints who are the guests at the wedding supper which happens on earth.

The saints already are clothed in the robes of righteousness, which requires all of our works to be judged and the dross burned off! That is the Bema judgment which takes place after the great snatching away and we stand before the Lord at the Bema!

Look at the language!!!!!! The Church is ready! That means all the church is fully clothed in righteousness! This cannot happen if some of the church is still on earth because the great snatching away has no t already happened according to you.
 
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claninja

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Your arguments are all over the place, so I will not be addressing every question posed.

Are you saying Jesus' Words in Mark cover future writings of the Apostles? How many generations from late 20's lived for the next 40 years? Then you have to figure out the blooming of the fig tree. My guess is time does not matter, because it has been 1990 years. Can you convince me the 1st century was last year? Do you even know if Peter was a futurist? If it was yet to happen, then Peter could not have been a historist or preterist. He would have not said it is still soon, because that is a future view, not a completed or historical view. Can you prove when 1 Peter and James were even written so "at hand" is even in context?

1.) Yes Jesus' words in mark cover Future writings of apostles

2.) Did Jesus' generation live to see to the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad?

3.) Blooming of the fig tree has to do with them seeing the signs as presented in the olivet
discourse. Just as when the branches are tender and put out leaves, then summer is near, SO ALSO when the they saw the events as listed in the olivet discourse, they would know He would be near.

Matthew 24:32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very doors.
4.) I agree Peter believed the 2nd advent was future to him.

5.) No one can 100% "prove" when any scriptures were written. We can only use evidence to guestimate time frames.

James demonstrates the parable of the fig tree, was occurring in his day. Notice James states "is standing", which is a present tense verb. The only way James could state the coming of the Lord was at hand, and he IS STANDING at the door, was if he saw the events of the olivet discourse.

James 5:8-9 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door

Matthew 24:32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is at hand, at the very doors.

It still is at hand.

So next time your waiting in the pharmacy and the pharmacist tells you your prescription will be ready soon, don't get angry when its not ready for at least 2-30 years.

It still is at hand. That view will not change until after the Second Coming. Are you going to criticize any alleged earthlings in another 1900 years for being as wrong as humans today? Technically they would argue that you were wrong, and we are right. I mean we literally use the same words, "at hand". The passage of time is not consequential to the fact. That is why you can just symbolize time, because you cannot use the passage of time as an argument either.

God can and has told us in when things are near and when they are distant. Thus futurists must spiritualize time frames to make their doctrines work, as even you agree.

The only logical conclusion is to deny they were right. That is not possible either. You have no proof either way, now, nor would have in another 1900 years. Any argument relating to being a literal at hand, more than likely ended a hundred years after all those in the 1st century died. Proof no longer existed. There is no proof to them being right or wrong. Using it in an argument now, is pointless. Being about God there is relevancy. Most claim it is still at hand. No one has even changed the original message did they? If they did claim it would happen in 2020, someone changed God’s Word.

I disagree that is only logical conclusion, in fact I would argue this makes no sense.

 
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nolidad

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James demonstrates the parable of the fig tree, was occurring in his day. Notice James states "is standing", which is a present tense verb. The only way James could state the coming of the Lord was at hand, and he IS STANDING at the door, was if he saw the events of the olivet discourse.

James 5:8-9 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door

Actually the verb James used and translated "at hand" here is in the perfect active indicative.
 
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claninja

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Actually the verb James used and translated "at hand" here is in the perfect active indicative.

I agree the verb “has drawn near” is perfect active indicative.

As mentioned In post #108, “is standing” is a present tense Verb.
 
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Timtofly

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But they are in heaven and you said no one is there! Can't have it both ways you know! But these are some of the 144,000 killed, the clue is that their fellowservants and brethren!
What do you mean by some of the 144K are killed?
 
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Timtofly

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So next time your waiting in the pharmacy and the pharmacist tells you your prescription will be ready soon, don't get angry when its not ready for at least 2-30 years.
Pharmacist are not Jesus Christ.

James saying it is soon, is not proof it happened. James saying it did happen, could be the only proof.

Do people today deny the NT is wrong? That is the hypothetical reasoning I and others are being accused of. But it is not logical and absurd. I am not denying anything. I am saying your interpretation has no proof at all. I am not denying an event that some one in the past failed to place into history. Why would I deny a non-existing event? Now if you can produce some ancient document that the RCC has hidden for 1930 years saying Christ returned, that would be a document that could be denied as very questionable that they are just now presenting it, after I posted this post.

I have not spiritualized any time frames. The 1000 year Millennium is a literal physical event. It is not a spiritual interpretation of the last 1990 years. Now the words soon, near, at hand are already spiritual if not literal, but they are not time frames in the specific sense. No time is given period. They are indicative of warnings at best. To add any hypothetical to the written text is an absurd private interpretation at best, a mockery at it's worse.
 
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keras

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But as for Scriptural support?

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
When we are absent from "THE" body we are present with the Lord! The state of the dead was taught by God slowly beginning with David.
This is just Paul's desire, not an actual truth. It certainly has nothing to do with a 'rapture', as it refers to dead people. Who won't be with the Lord until they stand before God after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15, Luke 21:36
Where is David? Acts 13:36 In his tomb, which I have seen in Jerusalem.
Scripture??
Where those faithful Christians go to after meeting Jesus in the clouds, 2 Thess 4:17, is told to us in Revelation 5:10
And you forget that the saints have received their glorified bodies . This happens at teh great snatching away which occurs before the Great tribulation.
Dream on!
I see nowhere in the Bible that people will be 'snatched away', before the GT. Or after it.
'Glorified bodies? No such thing. Only after peoples names are found in the Book of Life, will they receive immortality and become a Spiritual being.
But they are in heaven and you said no one is there!
The souls of the martyrs are kept under the heavenly Altar. They are allowed to cry out when God wills it. They are not living in heaven, as such.
Revelation 19:1-2 is another instance of this.
 
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nolidad

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James 5:8-9 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door

I agree the verb “has drawn near” is perfect active indicative.

As mentioned In post #108, “is standing” is a present tense Verb.

Actually the verb "is standing" is also perfect active indiciative! And in its context it is not about eschatology, but judgment!
 
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nolidad

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What do you mean by some of the 144K are killed?

Well the 144,000 sealed Jews are listed in Rev. 7. They are sealed for service, which there is a strong hint that they are global evangelists. Remember the times they will be preaching in, the first 6 seals have been opend and the 7th seal will unleash all sorts of real devastation for the planet and its people!

There is a problem with this theory because the souls under the altar cry out befopre the 144,000 are sealed.

So another probability is that these are Jews (based on the words companions and brethren) who have been saved and killed prior to the start of teh tribulation for their testimony.

Bottom line is these are guesses and we won't know for sure until the events happen!
 
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nolidad

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Where those faithful Christians go to after meeting Jesus in the clouds, 2 Thess 4:17, is told to us in Revelation 5:10

So Jesus grabs them, whisks them up to a height of anywhere from 1,000 to 50,000 feet then immediately brings them back to the earth? Scripture cite for that event please.

This is just Paul's desire, not an actual truth. It certainly has nothing to do with a 'rapture', as it refers to dead people. Who won't be with the Lord until they stand before God after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15, Luke 21:36
Where is David? Acts 13:36 In his tomb, which I have seen in Jerusalem.

Paul is not hoping that when one dies they go to be with the Lord- He knows it! there is no soul sleep! Pauls wish was TO BE absent from his body, so he COULD BE present with the Lord- not some far away day- but right away, if you accept that Paul knew how to write under inspiration!

I have seen Davids tomb as well. His body stil lies there, but His soul and spirit which were in Abrahams bosom are now in heaven as it says in Ephesians.
 
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Timtofly

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Well the 144,000 sealed Jews are listed in Rev. 7. They are sealed for service, which there is a strong hint that they are global evangelists. Remember the times they will be preaching in, the first 6 seals have been opend and the 7th seal will unleash all sorts of real devastation for the planet and its people!

There is a problem with this theory because the souls under the altar cry out befopre the 144,000 are sealed.

So another probability is that these are Jews (based on the words companions and brethren) who have been saved and killed prior to the start of teh tribulation for their testimony.

Bottom line is these are guesses and we won't know for sure until the events happen!
If they have been killed prior to, why seal a dead body? The literal approach is they are alive and ready to be disciples like the 12 in the 1st century. None of 1st century males were resurrected before being a disciple. This time around it is every nation on every continent, not just a narrow strip of land on the eastern edge of the Mediterranean.

Even if all continents are brought back into a single landmass. People on the extreme edges will more than likely start to make their way into the middle east. But it will take some time. There is no telling what transportation infrastructure will be around of any use, after the 6th seal.
 
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Timtofly

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So Jesus grabs them, whisks them up to a height of anywhere from 1,000 to 50,000 feet then immediately brings them back to the earth? Scripture cite for that event please.

I have seen Davids tomb as well. His body stil lies there, but His soul and spirit which were in Abrahams bosom are now in heaven as it says in Ephesians.

In the 6th seal, it is possible no one dies. The point is not to kill humans. The point will be for God to demonstrate His power, and prove the accuracy of the written Word of God, the Bible. People will watch mountains move and huge rocks fall to earth. The prayer is that they provide a hiding place, not that they be saved from death by being crushed to death.

I am curious why Peter in Acts never mentions that King David's tomb was in the basement of the same building as the Lord's Supper upper room? That would have been a very interesting fulfillment of prophecy.
 
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keras

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So Jesus grabs them, whisks them up to a height of anywhere from 1,000 to 50,000 feet then immediately brings them back to the earth? Scripture cite for that event please.
Matthew 24:31 Jesus will send His angels to gather His people to Him.
It will be a horizontal transportation, thru the atmosphere from wherever on earth to Jerusalem. Most of them will be those faithful Christians kept in a place of safety for the final 1260 days.
You can keep your ideas of going to heaven, the Bible never says humans will go there.
God and heaven comes to the earth after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

Paul's wish will be fulfilled after the Millennium. In the meantime, from the moment of his death, for him there is no time and his next conscious action will be to stand before God and his name will be found Written in the Book of Life, immortality will then be his.
 
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keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
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In the 6th seal, it is possible no one dies. The point is not to kill humans. The point will be for God to demonstrate His power, and prove the accuracy of the written Word of God, the Bible. People will watch mountains move and huge rocks fall to earth. The prayer is that they provide a hiding place, not that they be saved from death by being crushed to death.
Right; many will die, Jeremiah 25:33, but most will survive and will form a One World Govt. Those who stood firm in their faith and trusted the Lord for their protection; Isaiah 41:13 & 43:2, 1 Corinthians 10:13, will migrate into all of the holy Land, into the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
I am curious why Peter in Acts never mentions that King David's tomb was in the basement of the same building as the Lord's Supper upperroom? That would have been a very interesting fulfillment of prophecy.
Jerusalem is nothing like how it was in Jesus' time.
The Upper room and David's Tomb, are just modern replicas.
 
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