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The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by keras, Aug 2, 2020.

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  1. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sometimes, I just cannot make any sense out of what you're talking about. This is one of those times. I don't see any hint in Matthew 25:31-46 at all of it only being people who were saved along with people who lost their salvation and no one else.

    To me, Matthew 25:31-46 is very obviously portraying the day of judgment talked about in passages like these:

    Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Is there any reason to think that Matthew 25:31-46 is not referring to the day that this passage from Acts 17 is talking about? What basis is there for thinking that there will be more than one judgment day?

    Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

    Is there any reason to think that Paul was talking here about some other judgment than the one portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46?

    Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    Was Jesus speaking here of some other day of judgment than Matthew 25:31-46?

    John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Is the above speaking of some other judgment day than Matthew 25:31-46? What day will be "the last day"?
     
  2. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What do you think Revelation 12:6 is saying?

    It relates to "His coming". How is "His coming" not His return? That makes no sense whatsoever.

    It would be good for you to be able to differentiate between figurative and literal language. But, you seem to rarely be able to discern which is which. Explain to me how a number of people "as the sand of the sea" can all travel to one location to surround Jerusalem. You really think billions of people will all be able to go to one location like that at the same time? Explain the logistics of that to me.
     
  3. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Also Revelation 12:14; they both refer to the faithful Christians, those who refused to violate their Covenant with God and are taken to a place of safety on earth for the duration of the Great Tribulation.
    Jesus will send out His angels to gather them when He Returns. Matthew 24:31, 1 Thess 4:17
    That's because you don't see the difference between His 'coming' as the Son of Man, when He sends His fiery wrath, Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1, + , and when Jesus Returns as the Word of God. Revelation 19:13b
    No, I do not think that.
    The faithful Christian people, those who stood firm in their faith and trusted the Lord for their protection on His terrible Day of wrath; only they will be allowed to live in the holy Land. Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26
    Maybe a million, perhaps 10 million, but not billions.
     
  4. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You need to read 1 Thess 4 more carefully.

    1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Paul expected that he himself would be included among those who are caught up to meet the Lord in the air when He returns. He indicated that it will be all of the dead in Christ who are resurrected and all who are alive at the time who are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. To think that this is talking only about certain Christians rather than all Christians is not supported at all by the text itself.

    All who are in Christ from all-time will be gathered to Christ when He comes.

    There is no difference. You turn what is simple into an incomprehensible, convoluted mess that only you can understand.

    You constantly take Old Testament prophecies out of context instead of making it easy on yourself and accepting what the New Testament clearly says will happen.

    You must have misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't talking about your understanding of those who would be in "the camp of the saints". I'm talking about those who oppose them who number "as the sand of the seashore".

    What is your understanding of Revelation 20:7-9? That a number of people "as the sand of the seashore" will literally all go to Jerusalem to surround the 1-10 million people you believe will be there?
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    That prophecy does NOT say 'all' of them who sleep in Jesus.....
    We know from Revelation 20:4, that it will only be the GT martyrs.
    Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead await the GWT Judgment.

    Is that not clear enough for you?
    The NT does NOT 'clearly say', that Jesus will destroy the world at His Return. That fiery punishment will happen at the Sixth Seal.
    Revelation 20:7-9 stands as Written. It is what will happen, there is no 'interpretation' required.
     
  6. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's no basis for thinking it won't be all of the dead in Christ who are raised when He comes. That is what Paul taught here as well:

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    Is the order of resurrections that Paul gave here not clear enough for you? The context is being raised unto bodily immortality and the first to do that was Christ. Next in order are "they that are Christ's at His coming". That's it. So, your order contradicts what Paul taught.

    2 Peter 3:3-13 could not possibly be more clear that He will destroy the world at His return.

    Everything in scripture stands as written. But, the question is whether a given passage is written with figurative or literal language. I take it that you believe billions of people or however many "as the sand of the seashore" represents will all somehow travel to Jerusalem at the same time. If that's what you want to believe, so be it.
     
  7. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    So you accept literal fire but not literal sword?

    The church is in Paradise. How do billions of church people all end up on earth attacked by Satan?

    Who says they all get there? If it is just figurative to you, why are you asking me? Once they all start marching and at the moment the last person joins, they all are destroyed. It never says they all made it to the destination. It says the camp was surrounded. That means they came from all directions. The "breadth of the land" goes with "surrounded". They did not just come from one direction and then set up camp. The wording is not literally saying many billions were at Jerusalem. It says the army was so big and from all corners and edges that the sea of people made Jerusalem look like a tiny island. But it does not say they all arrived. The sense is that as the last one joined, they all just disappeared completely consumed and were no longer physically seen.

    Placing it in the here and now, you have to explain where they go, or even get there. At the end of the 1000 year, Day with the Lord, John indicates they immediately went to the lake of fire, because that was the end of it all. They and Satan made the last stand and ended up in the Lake of Fire, and immediately the GWT. Why would these billions even need to stand at the GWT? Their march of rebellion sealed their eternal fate. That was their choice between eternal life on the NE, or join Satan in the lake of fire for ever. There was no need to give an account of their life. The last act was all that mattered.
     
  8. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The Earth will Burn: 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 66:15-16, Zeph. 3:8, Isaiah 33:10-12

    In ancient times, God promised to Noah that He would never again destroy the earth with a flood. Genesis 9:11 But we see in Deuteronomy 32:34-35 & 22, God has kept in His storehouse a judgement of fire prepared and ready for His Day of vengeance. As we are once again ‘as in the days of Noah’, this terrible and devastating Day of fires, storms and earthquakes will soon strike the world, it will be the next prophesied event that will commence all that must happen, leading up to the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.

    Psalms 46:1-11 The Lord is our refuge and stronghold, He will help us in trouble, so we are not afraid when the earth is shaking and the mountains move; when the waves of the sea roar and the earth is quaking before the Lords majesty. Nations are in an uproar and kingdoms fall when the Lord thunders; the earth burns.

    Come and see what the Lord has done, the desolation He has brought on the earth. He makes wars to cease throughout the world, He breaks the bow, snaps the spear and burns the chariots in the fire.

    There is a river whose flow brings joy to the city of God, the holy Place of the Most High. The Lord is within her, she will not be overthrown and at the break of Day, He will come to her aid.

    Be still and know that I am God, I will be exalted among the nations and revered throughout the world. The Lord Almighty is with us, the God of Jacob is our Rock.


    This describes how the Lord will judge and punish the nations and ‘the desolation He will bring to the earth’. He will destroy all weapons of war and military forces will be neutralized or wiped out, but the Lord promises ‘to be a refuge’ to His people, when at the ‘break of day, the sea roars, the earth quakes and burns’. It is His great Day of vengeance and wrath, a massive explosion of the suns surface that will bring about all the vividly described effects. We are warned to be prepared for that terrible Day, but our only true protection will be our faith and trust in the Lord. Isaiah 30:15-30

    Isaiah 9:18-19 The ungodly will be set ablaze, as a fire that consumes briars and thorns. It sets the forests on fire and all is wrapped in a pall of smoke.

    The land is scorched by the fury of the Lord and the people will be fuel for the fire. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Romans 1:18, Hebrews 10:27

    Psalms 50:1-5 The Lord is coming and will not remain silent. From the sunrise to the sunset, A consuming fire runs ahead of Him and all around a great storm rages. He calls to the heavens above and the earth below, that He may judge His people.

    Gather to Me, My loyal servants, those who have made a Covenant with Me by sacrifice. 1 Peter 3:17 Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.


    This is not the Return of Jesus in His glory, as that cannot happen until the Anti-Christ is revealed. 2 Thess. 2:3 It will be the Lord’s judgement and punishment of the nations, Psalms 110:5-6, Habakkuk 3:12, and all the world will be affected. It will be triggered by an attack on the State of Israel by an Islamic confederation. Psalms 83

    The Lord’s people will be judged, Jeremiah 46:27-28, 1 Peter 4:17 and those who are His ‘loyal servants’, will be protected. Zechariah 9:15-16, Joel 3:16, Psalms 37:9, Zephaniah 2:3, 2 Thess.1:6-10
     
  9. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    So the beast and false prophet were at the tower of babel? Decieved those in Noah’s day, and visited Eve in the Garden?

    The future is not about dead people at all when dealing with the future earth. And no one is immortal. Read Paul and know the difference between incorruptible and immortal. One is an everlasting physical body. One is an everlasting spirit. The spirit you claim you have now. If you have your spirit now, you are already immortal.

    Jesus said 2 births, and 2 deaths. Your spirit was never dead, it is with God. When your spirit joins you after you shed this sinful flesh, you will be immortal. Immortal does not mean everlasting or eternal. It means divine, of God. Immortal is the glorification process. Forget how the Greeks use the word. They corrupted the meaning.

    The first birth, death, and resurection is physical.

    The second birth, death, and resurection is of our spirit, because we are separated from it because of sin. A dead spirit is a demon, and cannot be resurrected. Once reprobate Always reprobate. It should be that ORAR. You can own being reprobate. You can never own your Atonement. It is a gift. It does not matter, if you accept it or reject it hundreds of times, it was never yours.

    Personally, if one accepts something, and then changes their mind later, it is the circumstances surrounding the change of heart. Mental health and the way we process things over time, has to be factored in. Some people truly want to reprobate themselves. I do not think that applies 100% to those who understood the decision early in life, and became confused later on. Having a knowledge about Atonement and accepting the Atonement are two very different mental states. Sin can separate us from feeling God's love. Sin does not separate us from God's Atonement. It is a conscious choice to reject God's Atonement.
     
  10. Timtofly

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    This is not about dead people and a judgment after death. All dead people at the GWT, not living resurrected people.

    In Matthew 25, it is not a judgment, it is a separation. The goats will be judged at the GWT. The sheep are resurrected, and judged by the church in Revelation 20:4. These thrones are the church judging the sheep, as a formal ceremony. The sheep are given incorruptible bodies and live on earth. Since no one naturally dies, it is still the Lord's Day millennium. The OT promise to Abraham and David, which has yet to be fulfilled, in a physical sense.

    The sheep are not the church. The church is gone at the Second Coming. The Second Coming is when Christ is physically on the earth sending sheep and goats to their eternal destination. That is why it is called the final harvest. All Adam's flesh and blood has to die. Then the judgment. The sheep are judged in the first resurrection and given incorruptible bodies free of sin. The goats are not judged until after the 1000 years at the GWT.
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Y'know, Timtofly; you would be better to put aside all your beliefs and really open your mind to what the Bible actually says.
    Get a good modern translation and just soak up the Word, it will illuminate your mind.

    Your statement above is far out from what the Bible does tell us.
    We ARE His 'sheep'. John 10:14-15
    We ARE gathered at the Return; Matthew 24:31, 1 Thess 4:17
     
  12. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes. Where is there any indication in 2 Peter 3 that Peter is not being literal with what he wrote about there? To think of fire coming down upon the earth is not something farfetched, right? But, what about a literal double edged sword coming out of Christ's mouth? That seems literal to you? Or can it be referring to a figurative sword just like this verse does:

    Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

    When it talks about Jesus slaying people with a sword coming out of His mouth it's referring to Him destroying them by the authority of the word of God based on their rejection of the word of God. The literal way that He will destroy them is by fire, not by a sword coming out of His mouth. Just picture that. It's completely ridiculous to think that is literal.
     
  13. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I can't make any sense out of anything you said here. I do agree that the goats are judged after the 1000 years, but are you somehow missing that Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that they are judged "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him"? That means He is coming with all His holy angels after the 1000 years. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that there is more than one future judgment day. Scripture repeatedly refers to one future judgment day and that's it.

    Can you tell me which judgment day you think the following is referring to?

    Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Which day will it be that God will judge the world "by that man whom he hath ordained", which obviously refers to Christ? Is it the judgment day described in Matthew 25:31-46, the judgment day described in Revelation 20:11 - 21:5, or both - with the understanding that they both depict the one future judgment day?
     
  14. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    You ridiculously add to scripture. Rev 19:17-21 says Jesus will kill the attacking army at Armageddon and their bodies will feed the carrion birds.
    Only the 'beast' and the false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

    The fiery punishment comes at the Sixth Seal. Isaiah 66:15, Malachi 4:1, Psalms 50:1-4, 2 Peter 3:7
     
  15. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Death with a capital D is their judgment. They do not get a second chance at all at the GWT. That is when they are announced as never in the Lamb's book of life. The sheep immediately are resurrected in Revelation 20:4. That is the task of an angel. To take them from one place and time, to another place and time.

    Their eternal life on earth is guaranteed to last forever. The sheep are not part of the church. They are part of those who populate the earth.

    The days of judgment during the Trumpets. At least 5 months for the one Trumpet. All the sheep will have been harvested by the end of the 6th Trumpet.

    Then we have 7 Thunders to harvest the wheat out of the Nations. Then 42 months of beheadings. That is the final harvest.
     
  16. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you want to take figurative language literally, that is your choice. How big do you suppose the sword coming out of His mouth will be?
     
  17. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    It will be the Sword of His Word. Hebrews 4:12
     
  18. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And how does that literally kill people? In what way exactly do you think people will be killed when He returns? Peter makes it clear that it will be by fire (2 Peter 3:3-13).
     
  19. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Perhaps in the same way as the 185k Assyrians were killed. 2 Kings 19:35

    2 Peter 3:7-10 is a prophecy of the Sixth Seal; the Lord's fiery wrath.
    2 Peter 3:11-13 refers to the New heavens and earth, after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7
     
  20. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    On That Day:
    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 It is just; that the Lord should balance the account by sending judgement to those who afflict you, to give those who love and serve Him relief, when Jesus comes to punish the ungodly, with His mighty host in blazing fire. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, but on that great Day His glory will be revealed to all true believers. Isaiah 30:26, Psalm 18:7-15

    This passage of Scripture is not describing the Glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. It is an event before then –‘ when He comes in blazing fire and reveals His glory among His own’. It does not fit how He destroys the armies that are attacking Jerusalem at His Return, then how the whole world will see Him.

    2 Peter 3:7& 10 The Day of the Lord will come unexpectedly. The heavens will disappear with a roar and flaming fire will bring all the earth to judgement. Malachi 4:1

    Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we deliberately persist in sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains only the terrifying expectation of a fierce fire which will consume God’s enemies. Zephaniah 1:14-18

    Psalms 110:5-6 The Lord at Your right hand – He crushes kings on the Day of His wrath. In majesty He judges the nations, causing destruction throughout the world. Ps.97:2

    Revelation 14:14-20 On a white cloud, I saw a figure like a man, wearing a gold crown and holding a sharp sickle. Put in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come to harvest the earth. Then the angel that has authority over fire, called to Him - ‘Swing Your sickle now, for the earth’s grapes are ripe and ready for harvest. So the grapes were gathered and thrown into the great winepress of the Lord’s wrath. The blood flowed from it for 200 miles. Isaiah 63:1-6, Zephaniah 1:17


    Jeremiah 51:5-6 Israel and Judah are not left widowed by their God, by the Lord. But their Land is full of guilt, condemned by the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of Babylon, [Babylon: a metaphor for any godless nation] each person for himself or you will perish for her sins. For now comes the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, He is paying her full recompense. Ezekiel 22:1-7, Revelation 18:4-8

    Isaiah 17:1-10 Damascus will cease to be a city, just a heap of ruins forever desolate. On that Day, Jacobs strength will fade away, as when a reaper gathers the grain or as an olive tree is stripped at harvest and left with just a few berries. On that Day all will look to their Maker, all idols and the works of their hands are as rubbish. On that Day, your cities will be deserted and abandoned, because you have forgotten the Lord, your strength and protector. Jeremiah 9:12-13, Isaiah 6:11-12

    Isaiah 17:12-14 Listen! It is the thunder of vast forces, like the roaring of mighty waters. Nations flee, driven before the storm like thistledown. At evening, all is terror, by morning all is gone. Such is the fate of those who conspire to attack us. Psalms 83, Isaiah 66:15-16 Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.


    These Bible verses describe the next prophesied event – how God sends His right hand man, Jesus, to ‘ harvest the world of His enemies, those who conspire to attack His people’ This is also the Sixth Seal judgement, reiterated and described in over 100 Bible prophecies. This worldwide judgement of fire accurately fits how the earth would be affected by an unprecedented Coronal Mass Ejection. But as Isaiah and many other prophets say, His righteous people will be protected.
     
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