The Dawn Massacre
- Thread starter LoveBeingAMuslimah
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"One of the ways in which Gazans have challenged the blockade is by digging underground tunnels between the Egypt-Gaza borders, in order to smuggle basic goods."
"There is no doubt that the tunnels have eased the tragedy of people of Gaza, especially for students and hospital patients who need to travel outside of the territory to use better funded and facilitated services in Egypt.
The tunnels are also used to transport vital goods into the territory like medicine, food, and construction materials."
The Gaza tunnels - Witness - Al Jazeera English
This is from 5 years ago:
Analysts estimate that at least two-thirds of the goods sold across the Gaza Strip come from the tunnels, and that they employ some 12,000 Palestinians from all over the territory. Gaza’s unemployment rate, according to the UN, stood at 45 percent before the war. It is the highest in the world.
Tunnels become a lifeline | The Electronic Intifada
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Blessedj01
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keith99 said:
Christians shouldn't judge each other, perhaps you're confusing having an opinion on a topic with making a judgement about somebody.
Oh and in case anyone's wondering, I'm no hired shill. If I am, I want a pay rise!
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- May 19, 2015
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Well, we all know what Jesus said about LawyersOriginally Posted by Autumnleaf
Israel has more lawyers, guns and money. I think they will win and look good in the media doing it.
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS VS THE JEWISH LAWYERS AND RULERS
NKJV) Luke 7:30
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
NKJV) Luke 11:46
And He said, "Woe to you also, lawyers!
For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with
NKJV) Luke 11:52
"Woe to you lawyers!
For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
Yes.............
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Senator Cheese
Master of Cheese
The Rafah tunnels, yes, not the ones that go to Israel (these seem to solely serve the purpose of generating more "martyrs").
How is Israel "occupying" Gaza? There is not a single Israeli settlement in Gaza.
Gaza is almost completely autonomous - there is no Israeli police, no Israeli military and no Israeli leadership in Gaza.
Explain to me how they are "occupied" - and, more importantly, tell me how an economic blockade is reason enough to justify the targeted killings of civillians or even indiscriminate bombing of civillian areas?If this is what Islam describes as an "attack" on Islam that justifies Jihad, then we don't need to talk one more sentence.
Yeah, we see how well Jews and Christians fare in Muslim countries.
They can still be a part of it. Israel has no intention of invading Gaza at all. If they did, then there wouldn't be a Gaza strip and they wouldn't have left in 2005.
Yeah, keep on going.
To be honest, I don't really care at all who this "land" supposedly belongs to first. Who is doing a better job at providing a democratic, stable nation that guarantees a minimum of human rights?
Isn't it a bit humiliating to see that the only nations/regions with a functioning judicial system and true democracy and miority rights in the middle east are the Kurdish regions and a Jewish state?
Active IDF soldiers do not serve as human shields to drive up media sympathy.
Cease fires with Hamas and other Muslim terror groups only last so long for them to rearm.
I like the IDF. I don't think there's any other army in the world that actually phones ahead to warn citizens of impeding strikes.
But, right, Hamas, who has called for the extermination of all Jews and calls this a fundamental duty of all Muslims, is not a terrorist organization at all.
But who knows? Maybe they're right! Maybe those suicide bombers all end up in Paradise. Do you believe that Jihad is a duty for you, too? Is it a "defensive war" that is justified by economic embargos? Or justified by "attacks on Islam" in the sense of Western states not imposing Sharia? Tell me, Muslimah, how do you define these "attacks on Islam"?War is despicable and wrong. And I'm glad I live in a nation where my neighboring countries don't follow a fascist ideology that seeks death for paradise in the hereafter.
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Let me guess, Wisconsin USA?The Rafah tunnels, yes, not the ones that go to Israel (these seem to solely serve the purpose of generating more "martyrs")......................
War is despicable and wrong. And I'm glad I live in a nation where my neighboring countries don't follow a fascist ideology that seeks death for paradise in the hereafter.
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Ok, and which area was attacked based on the lie that Hamas captured an Israeli soldier after the 72-hour ceasefire started? Rafah. Which tunnels were Israelis saying that the IDF were detonating after the start of the ceasefire (before Israel finally admitted that the Israeli soldier was killed before the ceasefire began)? The ones in Rafah. And why were they still detonating tunnels after the ceasefire began? Because ceasefires apparently are only binding on Palestinians and not Israelis.
How is Israel "occupying" Gaza? There is not a single Israeli settlement in Gaza. Gaza is almost completely autonomous - there is no Israeli police, no Israeli military and no Israeli leadership in Gaza.
Well, the entire region is occupied, but Gaza and the West Bank are occupied even according to most of the international world.
Boston Globe: "Israeli-imposed buffer zones.. now absorb nearly 14 percent of Gaza's total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land. Similarly, the sea buffer zone covers 85 percent of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords, reducing 20 nautical miles to three." Human Rights Watch: "Israel also continues to control the population registry for residents of the Gaza Strip, years after it withdrew its ground forces and settlements there." B'Tselem, 2013: "Israel continues to maintain exclusive control of Gaza's airspace and the territorial waters, just as it has since it occupied the Gaza Strip in 1967." Source
and
Despite removing 8,000 settlers and the military infrastructure that protected their illegal presence, Israel maintained effective control of the Gaza Strip and thus remains the occupying power as defined by Article 47 of the Hague Regulations. To date, Israel maintains control of the territorys air space, territorial waters, electromagnetic sphere, population registry and the movement of all goods and people. Source
The numbers back up the fact that Israel targets non-combatants (like those on the beach, in hospitals, UN shelters, etc.) and that Hamas has been targeting Israeli combatants (like the ones they killed in face-to-face combat when they got to an Israeli base through tunnels).
Here are the numbers (from 8/5):
Palestinians dead: 1967 (1,600+ non-combatants)
Israelis dead: 67 (3 non-combatants)
"Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times by the sword to get them to abandon their faith." -Uri Avnery, a Jewish atheist, wrote this in Muhammad's Sword in 2006.
At the time of the Umayyad caliphate, the people of the covenant, Christians, Zoroastrians, Jews, and Sabians, all enjoyed degree of tolerance that we do not find even today in Christian countries. They were free to practice the rituals of their religion and their churches and temples were preserved. They enjoyed autonomy in that they were subject to the religious laws of the scholars and judges. (Will Durant, The Story Of Civilization, Volume 13. p. 131-132)
They can still be a part of it after they've been invaded, exiled, and killed in their own land and are deprived of even their right to self-defense? My, how nice of the Israelis.
Certainly not the entity that is collectively punishing an entire people because they voted for the wrong party (i.e. Hamas) and kills thousands of non-combatant civilians every few years.
No, they just lie about their massacre of the Palestinians to justify their attacks to garner media and world support. And then they show pictures of poor little children being frightened in bomb shelters while ignoring that they tear apart the limbs of poor little children in Gaza to drive up media sympathy.
Israel is the one that breaks ceasefires consistently because it does not have a problem with going back on its word.
Did you even watch the video? The massacre in Shuja'iyah killed more than 65 civilians without a warning.
I'll just quote what I said elsewhere on this forum: Even if there is ample warning, where exactly are they supposed to go? Gaza is barricaded from all sides - land, sea, and air - so they can't really leave. Within Gaza itself, no place is safe. Not their homes, not the beach, not playgrounds, not hospitals, and certainly not schools where people are seeking shelter. No where.
It does not call for the extermination of all Jews. And even if it did, again, the numbers point more to the fact that the IDF is a terrorist organization.
Oh, hey there agent provocateur! You should know that I don't answer these types of questions either way because I don't like to encourage the entrapment culture.
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Originally Posted by Zeek
I don't think it was quite the Paradise you make out...generally as long as Moslems have the upper hand they consider things to be fine...others don't.
and no other group of people ever claimed it as a sovereign State.
Funny statement...because Jews were in many Moslem lands long before Islam swept through...perhaps the Moslem invaders should give those lands back.
This is utterly naive...if anyone thinks Hamas have a collective conscience and would only target military objectives they are living in fantasy world.
They even said themselves that they hoped to kill and kidnap Israeli citizens....any Jew will do for Hamas, preferably while they are unarmed and asleep in their beds.
I have listened to several people from 'Breaking the Silence' and while I think some of them express things that should be exposed and investigated, I believe the way they have done things has given a weapon to the enemies of Israel.
But Hamas are the fascist Islamic murderers.
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No they are not, there has always been a Jewish presence in the area for 3,500+ years
I don't think it was quite the Paradise you make out...generally as long as Moslems have the upper hand they consider things to be fine...others don't.
and no other group of people ever claimed it as a sovereign State.
Funny statement...because Jews were in many Moslem lands long before Islam swept through...perhaps the Moslem invaders should give those lands back.
This is utterly naive...if anyone thinks Hamas have a collective conscience and would only target military objectives they are living in fantasy world.
They even said themselves that they hoped to kill and kidnap Israeli citizens....any Jew will do for Hamas, preferably while they are unarmed and asleep in their beds.
Hamas are cold-blooded ideological Islamic murderers.
I have listened to several people from 'Breaking the Silence' and while I think some of them express things that should be exposed and investigated, I believe the way they have done things has given a weapon to the enemies of Israel.
But Hamas are the fascist Islamic murderers.
__________________
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Blessedj01
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Zeek said:
Fight the good fight, Zeek.
I may start a fund for Hamas sympathisers to go live in Gaza. Obviously things would be paradise living with those heroes!
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Senator Cheese....But, right, Hamas, who has called for the extermination of all Jews and calls this a fundamental duty of all Muslims, is not a terrorist organization at all.
Don't worry about the facts they are just an inconvenience.
Though glossed over in major media reporting on the Israel-Gaza confrontation, the Hamas conflict with the Jewish State remains deeply ideological. Hamass Al-Aqsa TV broadcast a sermon Friday reaffirming the Hamas ideology that according to Islam, it is Muslim destiny to exterminate the Jews.
The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) carries a new video of an official television broadcast in which a Hamas cleric states:
Our belief about fighting you [Jews] is that we will exterminate you, until the last one, and we will not leave of you, even one. For you are the usurpers of the land, foreigners, mercenaries of the present and of all times. Look at history, brothers: Wherever there were Jews, they spread corruption... (Quran): "They spread corruption in the land, and Allah does not like corrupters." Their belief is destructive. Their belief fulfills the prophecy. Our belief is in obtaining our rights on our land, implementing Shari'ah (Islamic law) under Allah's sky.
[Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), July 25, 2014]
Killing Jews as religious practice is a basic message of Hamas, which believes that Muslim struggle against Jewsnot only Israelisand eventual extermination of Jews at the hands of Muslims is intrinsic to Islam. Hamas includes this message in its charter: [Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), July 25, 2014]
Hamas Charter Introduction: "Our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave..."
Article 28: "Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims..."
Article 7: "Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet (prayer and peace be upon him) said [in a Hadith]: 'The time (of Resurrection) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: o Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!'"
Hamas TV: Muslims to Exterminate the Jews
Article 28: "Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims..."
Article 7: "Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet (prayer and peace be upon him) said [in a Hadith]: 'The time (of Resurrection) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: o Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!'"
Hamas TV: Muslims to Exterminate the Jews
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“The Jews are not persecuted by the Arabs in these parts. I have travelled through the country in its length and breadth, and none of them has put an obstacle in my way. They are very kind to strangers, particularly to anyone who does not know the language; and if they see many Jews together they are not annoyed by it. In my opinion, an intelligent man versed in political science might easily raise himself to be chief of the Jews as well as of the Arabs…” Obadiah Yareh Da Bertinoro, an Italian Rabbi, in a letter to his father while traveling in Jerusalem in 1486 CE
"Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times ‘by the sword’ to get them to abandon their faith." -Uri Avnery, a Jewish atheist, wrote this in Muhammad's Sword in 2006.
At the time of the Umayyad caliphate, the people of the covenant, Christians, Zoroastrians, Jews, and Sabians, all enjoyed degree of tolerance that we do not find even today in Christian countries. They were free to practice the rituals of their religion and their churches and temples were preserved. They enjoyed autonomy in that they were subject to the religious laws of the scholars and judges. (Will Durant, The Story Of Civilization, Volume 13. p. 131-132)
The Muslims did, indeed, conquer many lands that were in control of & populated by non-Muslims before. But the majority of these Muslim lands are now the descendants of their original populations (what, you think the people before just conquered them and them moved their entire people into the 'new' lands like the Zionists did and exiled and killed many of the original non-combatant inhabitants?).
Microsoft Encarta under Palestine:
"The Arab Caliphate: The Arab conquest began 1300 years of Muslim presence in what then became known as Filastin..... The Muslim rulers did not force their religion on the Palestinians, and more than a century passed before the majority converted to Islam. The remaining Christians and Jews were considered "People of the Book." They were allowed autonomous control in their communities and guaranteed security and freedom of worship. Such tolerance was rare in the history of religion.....
The general commander of Al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, specifically said on July 29th in a recorded audio message on al-Aqsa satellite television,
that Hamas is targeting Israeli soldiers only, and is not seeking to cause harm to civilians. This is, he adds, despite Israel's "deliberate" killing of Palestinian civilians. - See more at: Hamas: we only target Israeli soldiers | Middle East Eye
And the numbers back them up, as I mentioned in my previous post.
Of the 67 Israelis killed, only 3 were non-combatants.
On the other hand, of the 1,967 killed, more than 1,600 of them were non-combatants.
Yes, they handed the world the weapon of truth.
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Would you like to show me where you get your statistic that of 1,967 people killed, 1,600 of them were civilians?
I notice you didn't challenge me about the grossly inflated body count in Jenin or after the Operation Cast Lead...so it is fair to assume there is a strong chance these figures you bandy about so confidently are also highly unlikely to be inaccurate.
The idea of Hamas only targetting soldiers is put into perspective by their indescriminate rocket attacks on civilians without any military targets, and confirmed by their charter that basically calls all Jews good only if they are dead.
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Originally Posted by LoveBeingAMuslimah
The Jews are not persecuted by the Arabs in these parts. I have travelled through the country in its length and breadth, and none of them has put an obstacle in my way. They are very kind to strangers, particularly to anyone who does not know the language; and if they see many Jews together they are not annoyed by it. In my opinion, an intelligent man versed in political science might easily raise himself to be chief of the Jews as well as of the Arabs Obadiah Yareh Da Bertinoro, an Italian Rabbi, in a letter to his father while traveling in Jerusalem in 1486 CE
"Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times by the sword to get them to abandon their faith." -Uri Avnery, a Jewish atheist, wrote this in Muhammad's Sword in 2006.
At the time of the Umayyad caliphate, the people of the covenant, Christians, Zoroastrians, Jews, and Sabians, all enjoyed degree of tolerance that we do not find even today in Christian countries. They were free to practice the rituals of their religion and their churches and temples were preserved. They enjoyed autonomy in that they were subject to the religious laws of the scholars and judges. (Will Durant, The Story Of Civilization, Volume 13. p. 131-132)
THE MYTH THAT JEWS FARED WELL UNDER ISLAM.
While Jewish communities in Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe, Jews were no strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs. As Princeton University historian Bernard Lewis has written: The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam.17
Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to recognize Muhammad as their Prophet, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled. In 627, Muhammads followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.18
The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny Gods signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:97-98).
Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews. In the ninth century, Baghdads Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.19
At various times, Jews in Muslim lands lived in relative peace and thrived culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death.
When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results. On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.
Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in an offensive manner. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.20
Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by the Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830; and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.21
Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854­-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Korans prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).22
The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.23
As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:
It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.24
The danger for Jews became even greater as a showdown approached in the UN. The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world.25
More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940s in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.26 This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFtreatment.html
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Palestinian medics on the ground. Shocking, isn't it?
Um, I don't know where you posted about the number of dead. But in any case, I am far more likely to believe doctors on the ground in Palestine who say that the majority of the 1,900 who have come in are civilians. The UN also estimated about a week ago that at least 70% of the dead are civilians.
"The number of militants killed is unclear, but the United Nations estimates that 70% to 80% of the dead are civilians."
And, once more, the numbers back up the fact that Israelis target non-combatants while Hamas has been targeting soldiers and does not mean to strike non-combatants. That they only have unguided missiles and, even then, killed only 3 non-combatants while the Israelis have precise, guided strikes and have managed to kill mainly non-combatants shows that maybe Israel should "defend" themselves with unguided, homemade rockets as well. Maybe THEN they'll avoid thousands of civilian deaths.
Also, check out this video of Hamas' founder, Ahmad Yassin:
[youtube]vKa1kRWX0AA[/youtube]
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Zeek
Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist
Originally Posted by Zeek
More like ...predictable, and you still haven't given a source.
If I recall it was both the UN and Palestinian doctors on the ground that got the figures so wrong on previous occasions....can't think why.
You totally fail to see the facts.
Death to all Jews is written into the Hamas charter.
The only reason their rockets didn't kill many civilians is because they were shot down by Iron Dome and were random unguided and unsophisticated....but their intention was to kill and maim as many Israelis as possible without giving a damn whether they were military or not.
In the Gazan hospitals, many dead and wounded had injuries caused by munitions packed with ball-bearings to do maximum damage....Israelis do not use such devices.
I was in Israel at the time of Ahmad Yassin's demise...a brutal end to a brutal man.
Would you like to show me where you get your statistic that of 1,967 people killed, 1,600 of them were civilians?
More like ...predictable, and you still haven't given a source.
If I recall it was both the UN and Palestinian doctors on the ground that got the figures so wrong on previous occasions....can't think why.
You totally fail to see the facts.
Death to all Jews is written into the Hamas charter.
The only reason their rockets didn't kill many civilians is because they were shot down by Iron Dome and were random unguided and unsophisticated....but their intention was to kill and maim as many Israelis as possible without giving a damn whether they were military or not.
In the Gazan hospitals, many dead and wounded had injuries caused by munitions packed with ball-bearings to do maximum damage....Israelis do not use such devices.
I was in Israel at the time of Ahmad Yassin's demise...a brutal end to a brutal man.
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Yes, the actual death toll given by those medics on the ground who see the actual amount of dead is a very predictable number given that we're talking about the murderous & ruthless entity known as Israel. They massacre civilians and hit beaches where the only people in sight are little boys playing soccer. They shell UN shelters (schools), hospitals, and centers for the disabled. Is there any place they wouldn't hit?
70-80% of 1,967 dead is between 1,376-1,573 non-combatants killed.
You should've told me that you'll only accept Israel's numbers. Even they (the notorious liars who lied about the "missing" teens) say that 900 of the 1900 dead are militants. So that means that half of those killed, even according to the liars, are non-combatants.
I don't see where that is written.
And despite whatever is written, it is Israel that invaded. It is Israel that exiled. It is Israel that mass-killed multiple times. So I don't care whoever has it written that they'll kill. It is Israel that has, in reality, been killing.
The amount of non-combatant Israeli casualties was 3 in 2009 as well....before the use of the iron dome.
And, as I mentioned before, on July 29th Hamas' military wing's general commander gave a recorded audio message to Al-Aqsa Satellite TV saying that they only target Israeli soldiers and that they do not target civilians.
Oh, because the Israelis are so honorable?
"The Israeli military is using flechette shells, which spray out thousands of tiny and potentially lethal metal darts, in its military operation in Gaza....The shell explodes in the air and releases thousands of metal darts 37.5mm in length, which disperse in a conical arch 300 metres long and about 90 metres wide." Israel using flechette shells in Gaza | World news | theguardian.com
Way to miss the point. The founder of Hamas says that they do not fight or hate the Jews because they are Jews but because they stole their land. He would fight anybody who steals his land, whether it be his brother, cousin, or Jews.
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....the statement of Professor Dean Phillip Bell (professor of Jewish history at Spertus Institute of Jewish Studies, Chicago):
‘Jews under medieval Islam never suffered from the same general negative perception as in the Christian West. Despite regional variations and high medieval political instability, in medieval Islam multicultural environments, combined with active engagement in sciences and literature, led to something of an Islamic golden age for the Jews, at least according to most historical accounts. It has been primarily in the context of recent political developments that the once assumed positive views of Jewish life under medieval Islam have been seriously questioned.’[1]
....Prior to the advent of Islam as a political power, Jews were facing heavy persecutions at the hands of Christian authorities and when the Muslims emerged on the scene the Jewish people welcomed them as liberators, as confirmed by Zion Zohar (Jewish historian)
‘Thus, when Muslims crossed the straits of Gibraltar from North Africa in 711 CE and invaded the Iberian Peninsula, Jews welcomed them as liberators from Christian Persecution…’[2]
This liberty from the “Christian persecution” was not an isolated event, rather it seems to have taken place elsewhere, as confirmed by Karen Armstrong:
‘Toward the end of the seventh century, a Hebrew poem hailed the Arabs as the precursors of the Messiah and looked forward to the ingathering of the Jewish exiles and the restoration of the Temple. Even when the Messiah failed to arrive, Jews continued to look favorably on Islamic rule in Jerusalem. In a letter written in the eleventh century, the Jerusalem rabbis recalled the “mercy” God had shown his people when he allowed the “Kingdom of Ishmael” to conquer Palestine. They were glad to remember that when the Muslims arrived in Jerusalem, “there were people from the children of Israel with them; they showed them the spot of the Temple and they settled with them until this very day.”…In about 750 the Jewish author of “The Mysteries of Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai” saw the building [the Dome of the Rock] as a prelude to the messianic age. He praises the Muslim Caliph as “a lover of Israel” who had “restored the breaches of Zion and the breaches of the Temple”’[3]
Are Muslims Anti-Semitic? | Hittin Institute
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[youtube]bPzBgyyAoVA[/youtube]
"....two Israeli missiles slammed into the building they were staying in on Sunday, killing Hassan Al Hallaq's pregnant wife, his two sons, his mother, his sister and another child. They died despite the fact that Al Hallaq had earlier moved his family to the center of Gaza City at the behest of Israel, after it had warned Gazans living along the border to vacate for their own safety. More than 70 percent of those killed in Gaza have been civilians, the United Nations says"
Gaza Family Moves 2 Times, But Can't Escape The Bombs
Dad Relives Israeli Strike in Gaza That Wiped Out His Family - NBC News
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Senator Cheese
Master of Cheese
LBAM:
I really like you, because I see that you are debating and arguing with the right intentions. You want to do what is right and stand up for the oppressed - and the fact that you're spending time on a Christian board in standing up for your beliefs needs to be noted as an indicator that this topic is very important to you and that you are willing to devote a lot of time in trying to convince or persuade those who do not share your opinion. I want you to know that I respect and appreciate it - I only fear that you have the best of intentions and yet are ideologically blinded at the same time.
I will try to argue and reason with you, but I want to take time to point out one quote of you. I asked you about what you think justifies the slaughter of civillians - what qualifies as an "attack on Islam" that justifies Jihad against the unbelievers.
Your answer was that you do not answer these types of questions:
I just want to say that the way Islam is perceived in the West is fundamentally changing with every conflict in the Middle East, with every time that citizens here recognize that every country that borders the Muslim world is riddled by war and terror.
While I have, for a long time, considered these to be acts of rogue idiots who abuse their religion for crime, I have been coming to the conclusion that these acts are condoned and furthered by the "religion" itself and constitute beliefs held by nearly everyone who follows this ideology.
After all, I see thousands hitting the streets to demonstrate against "World Jewdom" and no demonstrations that distance themselves from ISIS or other terror groups. And when I ask Muslims what they think of these acts, they seemingly have no interest in discussion these issues. Or, they do, and say that "joining Al Qaeda is just like joining the Army - what is the problem with it?!".
Your unwillingness to actually speak on the subject only fuels resentment and prejudice. I am sure that a varying amount of Christians only rarely speak to other Muslims and the fact that you are on this website is a great opportunity to provide for some interfaith dialogue - but sadly, I have the feeling you are actually providing more indication that your religion qualifies more as a political ideology than actual faith than discrediting these points.
Israel has offered peace since the dawn of its time - it was the Palestinians that refused to accept any two-state-solution they offered.
Wasn't it just 10 years ago that Arafat turned down a deal that actually provided him with 98% of the demands he proposed?
And how is Gaza occupied? You brought up links that describe the fact that Gazas borders are closed and that their airspace is controlled.
Does Israel not have a right to close its borders if they are used for terrorist attacks? Before the border, do you remember the time when suicide bombings in Israel were just part of the daily routine? Was that okay?
List of Palestinian suicide attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That number dropped after the borders were constructed. Since when does a country NOT have the right to close its borders?
And as for "electronic airspace" - you mean that radio frequencies are "occupied"? Heck, you have that in any country in the world. That's why there are electronic administrations for that.
"Airspace occupation"? How is this a problem?
If these "occupations" justify the slaughter of civillians and cannot be solved by political dialogue, then something is going terribly wrong.
The numbers are a result of the Iron dome and do not reflect the willingness of Muslim terror groups to kill civillians.
We can see this trend when we look at casualties from pre-Iron-Dome and pre-Border-Fence eras.
They have the Gaza strip and the majority of the West Bank. If they want a state, then they should act like adults and enter political dialogue. Secular Fatah seems to be able to pull it off - why not islamic Hamas?
Punishment would entail indiscriminately bombing the populace.
Bombing rocket ramps and Hamas facilities does not qualify as indiscriminate bombing.
If Hamas doesn't want to be bombed to dust and wants to help its populace, then it should cease firing rockets into Israel.
Sure. Hamas is honest and Israel lies. You say this because Hamas is Muslim and Israel are unbelievers?
When both parties claim the truth, then it's nice to look at the actual profit of war. Israel does not profit - it's a costly operation and an economy of Israel would much rather profit from a strong economic partner in Gaza and the West Bank.
Hamas, on the other hand, uses this perpetual state of war to cool their own religious lust for death and also to keep themselves in power.
Actually there WERE warnings asking them to clear the area and steer free from it after bombing runs.
Israel has told the populace of the North to evacuate to the South when they performed bombing runs there.
Gaza is small, but we both know it is not a "giant prison with nowhere to hide".
The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree
Seriously, read the charter.
Palestine Center - The Charter of the Hamas
In closing: free your mind. How does Israel profit from this ongoing conflict? Why disengage from Gaza and then go back in 9 years later? Why spend 100.000 on every rocket that's fired from Hamas?
Try to think rationally instead of swallowing what you are taught. If Allah is loving, then he would not advocate the killing of unbelievers.
I do hope you have a chance to read what Jesus teaches about those who persecute you - maybe you will find that it is more Godly than those primordial human instincts that tell us to kill those who attack us of the Mohammedan ideology.
I really like you, because I see that you are debating and arguing with the right intentions. You want to do what is right and stand up for the oppressed - and the fact that you're spending time on a Christian board in standing up for your beliefs needs to be noted as an indicator that this topic is very important to you and that you are willing to devote a lot of time in trying to convince or persuade those who do not share your opinion. I want you to know that I respect and appreciate it - I only fear that you have the best of intentions and yet are ideologically blinded at the same time.
I will try to argue and reason with you, but I want to take time to point out one quote of you. I asked you about what you think justifies the slaughter of civillians - what qualifies as an "attack on Islam" that justifies Jihad against the unbelievers.
Your answer was that you do not answer these types of questions:
I just want to say that the way Islam is perceived in the West is fundamentally changing with every conflict in the Middle East, with every time that citizens here recognize that every country that borders the Muslim world is riddled by war and terror.
While I have, for a long time, considered these to be acts of rogue idiots who abuse their religion for crime, I have been coming to the conclusion that these acts are condoned and furthered by the "religion" itself and constitute beliefs held by nearly everyone who follows this ideology.
After all, I see thousands hitting the streets to demonstrate against "World Jewdom" and no demonstrations that distance themselves from ISIS or other terror groups. And when I ask Muslims what they think of these acts, they seemingly have no interest in discussion these issues. Or, they do, and say that "joining Al Qaeda is just like joining the Army - what is the problem with it?!".
Your unwillingness to actually speak on the subject only fuels resentment and prejudice. I am sure that a varying amount of Christians only rarely speak to other Muslims and the fact that you are on this website is a great opportunity to provide for some interfaith dialogue - but sadly, I have the feeling you are actually providing more indication that your religion qualifies more as a political ideology than actual faith than discrediting these points.
Israel has offered peace since the dawn of its time - it was the Palestinians that refused to accept any two-state-solution they offered.
Wasn't it just 10 years ago that Arafat turned down a deal that actually provided him with 98% of the demands he proposed?
The West Bank has Jewish settlement, yes. But the rockets weren't flying from the West Bank now, were they?
And how is Gaza occupied? You brought up links that describe the fact that Gazas borders are closed and that their airspace is controlled.
Does Israel not have a right to close its borders if they are used for terrorist attacks? Before the border, do you remember the time when suicide bombings in Israel were just part of the daily routine? Was that okay?
List of Palestinian suicide attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That number dropped after the borders were constructed. Since when does a country NOT have the right to close its borders?
And as for "electronic airspace" - you mean that radio frequencies are "occupied"? Heck, you have that in any country in the world. That's why there are electronic administrations for that.
"Airspace occupation"? How is this a problem?
If these "occupations" justify the slaughter of civillians and cannot be solved by political dialogue, then something is going terribly wrong.
The numbers are a result of the Iron dome and do not reflect the willingness of Muslim terror groups to kill civillians.
We can see this trend when we look at casualties from pre-Iron-Dome and pre-Border-Fence eras.
They have the Gaza strip and the majority of the West Bank. If they want a state, then they should act like adults and enter political dialogue. Secular Fatah seems to be able to pull it off - why not islamic Hamas?
Punishment would entail indiscriminately bombing the populace.
Bombing rocket ramps and Hamas facilities does not qualify as indiscriminate bombing.
If Hamas doesn't want to be bombed to dust and wants to help its populace, then it should cease firing rockets into Israel.
Sure. Hamas is honest and Israel lies. You say this because Hamas is Muslim and Israel are unbelievers?
When both parties claim the truth, then it's nice to look at the actual profit of war. Israel does not profit - it's a costly operation and an economy of Israel would much rather profit from a strong economic partner in Gaza and the West Bank.
Hamas, on the other hand, uses this perpetual state of war to cool their own religious lust for death and also to keep themselves in power.
Hamas broke all the cease fire agreements in this conflict. Even Arab news outlets have been reluctantly reporting this fact.
Actually there WERE warnings asking them to clear the area and steer free from it after bombing runs.
Israel has told the populace of the North to evacuate to the South when they performed bombing runs there.
Gaza is small, but we both know it is not a "giant prison with nowhere to hide".
The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree
Seriously, read the charter.
Palestine Center - The Charter of the Hamas
In closing: free your mind. How does Israel profit from this ongoing conflict? Why disengage from Gaza and then go back in 9 years later? Why spend 100.000 on every rocket that's fired from Hamas?
Try to think rationally instead of swallowing what you are taught. If Allah is loving, then he would not advocate the killing of unbelievers.
I do hope you have a chance to read what Jesus teaches about those who persecute you - maybe you will find that it is more Godly than those primordial human instincts that tell us to kill those who attack us of the Mohammedan ideology.
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