The date of Christmas, for the record.

Epiphoskei

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In 221 A.D., Sextus Julius Africanus wrote in his Chronographai that Christ was conceived on the first day of spring, March 25 according to the contemporary calendar. Add the average nine months and it isn't hard to see where December 25th comes from.

In 354 A.D., the Calendar of Philocalus gives the earliest reference to any kind of pagan festival on December 25th, the birthday of Sol Invictus.

Every December this place gets flooded with threads to the effect that Christmas is pagan because it occurs on a pagan holiday, and others respond that the Church "redeemed" the date (thus tacitly accepting that the date was indeed a pagan holiday first). Nonetheless, no evidence for the existence of said holiday exists until 133 years after the earliest evidence for the 12/25 tradition. Doesn't it strike anyone else that, given the source material, such a relationship should probably be considered dubious?
 

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In 221 A.D., Sextus Julius Africanus wrote in his Chronographai that Christ was conceived on the first day of spring, March 25 according to the contemporary calendar. Add the average nine months and it isn't hard to see where December 25th comes from.

In 354 A.D., the Calendar of Philocalus gives the earliest reference to any kind of pagan festival on December 25th, the birthday of Sol Invictus.

Do you have the links to those?
 
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Uphill Battle

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it wouldn't matter if it were the 25th of December or not. We could get a telephone call from Christ in heaven himself letting us know, and those who hate Christmas, will still talk about us being paganistic and unfaithful to Christ.

I do love the yearly Christmas is eeeeeevuuuuuulll threads, but It was early this year.... not unlike the malls playing jingle bells in November. Can we hurry up and get to the "easter is eeeeeeevuuuuuull" threads?
 
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Pythons

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I rather doubt that anyone disagrees that Christmas is celebrated annually on December 25. However, there is absolutely no certainty as to the actual day of the year when Jesus Christ was born. If one wishes to believe that December 25 is the date of the birth of Jesus Christ, then one takes it merely by faith and nothing more.

Perhaps a little more....
...I forget where I got the following.

someone who put some time in on the question of Christmas said:
We have been told by source critical scholars that Jesus was probably born in 6 BC, or possibly even earlier. This was based on the information provided by Flavius Josephus that Herod died in 4 B.C. Since Herod slaughtered the infants two years old and younger, this may lead one to conjecture that the birth of Christ took place in 5 B.C. or 6 B.C.

The works of Josephus that are of interest to us are The Jewish War and The Jewish Antiquities, since they address the period between 170 BC and 70 AD. Although most scholars have put complete trust in Josephus, his works contain many errors and discrepancies. Either these were due to Josephus himself, or the fact that by the Middle Ages there existed a dozen or so manuscripts of his writings, each differing significantly from the others. In fact, one account of Josephus in Grande Encyclopédie, by Ladmirault (Paris 1893) says Josephus was “boastful, proud and pretentious; one who falsified history to his own advantage and whose treatment of events is often inadequate.” Various critical editions of Josephus have been issued since, e.g., Niese, 1881; Reinach 1902-1932. Reinach adds glosses to Josephus accounts such as “this is a mistake” or “in another book...the figures are different...”1


Thanks to the work of Hugues de Nanteuil, we have found that the modern critics are wrong. Little known (or advertised by modern scholars) is that Josephus had two different dates for the death of Herod, and the interpretation of the source containing 4 B.C. is highly debatable. In Herod’s other work, he says Herod died in 7 or 8 BC.
Conversely, in the year 532 the monk Dionysius the Little stated that Christ was born on December 25, 1 BC. He had also established that 1 AD corresponded to the 754th year of the foundation of Rome.



In order to understand this dating system, we need to go back to the pre-Christian era. In that era there were two dating systems:


(1) A dating system based on the dates of the reigning monarch. In this realm, the foundation date is 753 BC, which is the foundation date of Rome under the auspices of Romulus. The Romans titled this foundation date as “urbe condita” (meaning: “from the foundation of the city”). Their year began on April 21st and they had 355 days in their calendar. This inaccurate calendar remained in force until the time of Julius Caesar who in 46 BC, upon the tutelage of the Greek astronomer Sisogenes, increased the number of days in 46 BC to 445, and thereafter (45 BC and onward) there would be 365.25 days in the year and the year would begin on January 1st.



(2) A dating system based on the dates of significant events. In this realm, the commencement of the Olympic games in 776 BC is the foundation date. Every four years, the Greeks would record the date of the games or “Olympiads,” and the event was abbreviated “OL.” As Augustine states:



“Anything, then, that we learn from history about the chronology of past times assists us very much in understanding the Scriptures, even if it be learnt without the pale of the Church as a matter of childish instruction. For we frequently seek information about a variety of matters by use of the Olympiads, and the names of the consuls; and ignorance of the consulship in which our Lord was born, and that in which He suffered, has led some into the error of supposing that He was forty-six years of age when He suffered, that being the number of years He was told by the Jews the temple (which He took as a symbol of His body) was in building. Now we know on the authority of the evangelist that He was about thirty years of age when He was baptized; But the number of years He lived afterwards, although by putting His actions together we can make it out, yet that no shadow of doubt might arise from another source, can be ascertained more clearly and more certainly from a comparison of profane history with the gospel” (On Christian Doctrine, 2, 28, 42)


Each segment of four years was begun on the first full moon of summer. We also see some other Church Fathers use the Olympic calendar. Below is Cyril of Jerusalem’s dating of the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 using the Olympic calendar. Cyril of Jerusalem writes:


“From the going forth of the word for making answer, and for the building of Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince are seven weeks and three score and two weeks. Now three score and nine weeks of years contain four hundred and eighty-three years. He said, therefore, that after the building of Jerusalem, four hundred and eighty-three years having passed, and the rulers having failed, then cometh a certain king of another race, in whose time the Christ is to be born. Now Darius the Mede built the city in the sixth year of his own reign, and first year of the 66th Olympiad according to the Greeks.


Olympiad is the name among the Greeks of the games celebrated after four years, because of the day which in every four years of the sun's courses is made up of the three (supernumerary) hours in each year. And Herod is king in the 186th Olympiad, in the 4th year thereof. Now from the 66th to the 186th Olympiad there are 120 Olympiads intervening, and a little over. So then the 120 Olympiads make up 480 years: for the other three years remaining are perhaps taken up in the interval between the first and fourth years. And there thou hast the proof according to the Scripture which saith, From the going forth of the word that Jerusalem be restored and built until Messiah the Prince are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks” (Catechetical Lectures, 12, 19).



Regarding the Roman system, although it is close to our present calendar, Julius Caesar did not use the numerals 1 to 31 to designate the days of the month. Rather, he used the ancient Roman names “Calends, Nones and Ides.” In this system, Calends was the first day of the month, Nones was the fifth and Ides was the thirteenth (except in March, May, July and October the Nones fell on the 7th day and the Ides fell on the 15th). The days between were noted on how close they were to Calends, Nones and Ides. The number placed before the calendar name would be subtracted from the calendar date. For example, the “8th day of Calends” would subtract 8 days from January 1st, which equals December 25. Incidentally, this is where the Irish get the expression “The Ides of March.”


It is a little more complicated, however. Actually, there were two ways to mark the calendar based on the reigning monarch. The years could be signified by Ordinal numbers (e.g., first, second, third, fourth). When Ordinal numbers were used, they reflected the year in which the monarch was nominated or acceded to the throne. His ascension year would be the first year and the following year would be the second year.


But the years could also be signified by Cardinal numbers (e.g., one, two, three, four). In this case, the year “1” would be a year after the monarch ascended to the throne.
The ancient Jews used a similar dual design in marking off the reigns of the kings of Israel and Judah, making a distinction between the ascension year of the king as opposed to the reigning year following (See Edwin Thiele’s “The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings”).


We do the same in our counting of various dates. Presently, we are in the 21st century, but our present date does not begin with 2104 but 2004. Similarly, we can say that “John is in his 31st year,” or “John is 30 years old.”



These distinctions are important, since it is known that all the Greek and Latin historians marked dates based on one of the above systems. Thus, they had available to them:


1) the Olympiad or OL

2) the “urbe condita” or UC

3) years of the monarch

4) years of the Julian calendar


As a result, the same event might have several different dates attached to it depending on which dating system was used. For example, when Luke 3:1 says: “Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and Herod was tetrarch of Galilee,” the fifteenth year could be either 15 years from the date he ascended the throne (which we know is August 14 AD) or 16 years from the date of his ascension. Further, the beginning day of his reign could designated either January or August.


To further complicate things, towards the end of the Roman Empire under the reign of Constantine, another system of dating was established, which was based on the land-tax occurring every 15 years, and was known as the “Indictions.” This 15-year cycle had originated in the reign of Diocletian but was implemented as a calendar under Constantine.

Another complication is that the Greeks, besides using the Olympiad calendar, celebrated the nativity of Jesus on January 6 whereas the Latins celebrated it on December 25, which is not only a twelve day difference but also a difference of a different calendar year, since January begins a new calendar year.


Here is where Dionysius the Little (named “Little” because of his humility) comes into the picture. Although Armenian by birth, he eventually settled at Rome. He began his work by translating texts from Greek into Latin, noting that the Greeks and Latins did not celebrate Christmas and Easter on the same dates. Relying upon the testimony of Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Eusebius of Caesarea, Jerome, as well as the historians such as Julius Africanus and Orosius, he calculated that Christ was born precisely 532 years before the date Dionysius began his work.


For example, Julius Africanus made an extensive study of the Hebrew and Greek calendars, and attempted to make an accurate match-up of the two. He writes:
“Up to the time of the Olympiads there is no certain history among the Greeks, all things before that date being confused, and in no way consistent with each other. But these Olympiads were thoroughly investigated by many, as the Greeks made up the records of their history not according to long spaces, but in periods of four years. For which reason I shall select the most remarkable of the mythical narratives before the time of the first Olympiad, and rapidly run over them. But those after that period, at least those that are notable, I shall take together, Hebrew events in connection with Greek, according to their dates, examining carefully the affairs of the Hebrews, and touching more cursorily on those of the Greeks; and my plan will be as follows: Taking up some single event in Hebrew history synchronous with another in Greek history, and keeping by it as the main subject, subtracting or adding as may seem needful in the narrative, I shall note what Greek or Persian of note, or remarkable personage of any other nationality, flourished at the date of that event in Hebrew history; and thus I may perhaps attain the object which I propose to myself.” (Extant Fragments, 3, 1).


An example of his elaborate calculations can be seen below:
“From Artaxerxes, moreover, 70 weeks are reckoned up to the time of Christ, according to the numeration of the Jews. For from Nehemiah, who was sent by Artaxerxes to people Jerusalem, about the 120th year of the Persian empire, and in the 20th year of Artaxerxes himself, and the 4th year of the 83nd Olympiad, up to this time, which was the 2d year of the 202d Olympiad, and the 16th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, there are given 475 years, which make 490 Hebrew years, since they measure the years by the lunar month of 29½ days, as may easily be explained, the annual period according to the sun consisting of 365¼ days, while the lunar period of 12 months has 11¼ days less. For which reason the Greeks and the Jews insert three intercalary months every eight years. For 8 times 11¼ days make 3 months. The 475 years, therefore, contain 59 periods of 8 years and three months over: thus, the three intercalary months for every 8 years being added, we get 15 years, and these together with the 475 years make 70 weeks. Let no one now think us unskilled in the calculations of astronomy, when we fix without further ado the number of days at 365¼. For it is not in ignorance of the truth, but rather by reason of exact study, that we have stated our opinion so shortly. But let what follows also be presented as in outline to those who endeavor to inquire minutely into all things” (Extant Fragments, xviii, 2).2



NB: 475 years = 202 Olympiads minus 83 Olympiads = 119 Olympiads. 119 x 4 = 476 years. Deducting 1 year since there is no year “0,” leaves 475 years.
When we compare lunar years with solar years we have:


– 475 years x 365.25 days = 173,493 days



– 490 years x 354 days (i.e., 12 months of 29.5 days) = 173, 460 days, which is a difference of only 33 days



Dionysius then affirmed that the year 1 of Christ’s life corresponded to the Roman year 754 UC, both of which commenced on January 1st. Notice here that Dionysius has placed the birth of Christ on the 8th day before the Calends of January (that is, January 1st AD minus 8 days = December 25, 1 BC). Incidentally, the year beginning January 1st 1 AD coincides with the fourth year of the 194th Olympiad, at least up to the first full moon in July, which would then change to the first year of the 195th Olympiad.
 
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Davidnic

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In 221 A.D., Sextus Julius Africanus wrote in his Chronographai that Christ was conceived on the first day of spring, March 25 according to the contemporary calendar. Add the average nine months and it isn't hard to see where December 25th comes from.

In 354 A.D., the Calendar of Philocalus gives the earliest reference to any kind of pagan festival on December 25th, the birthday of Sol Invictus.

Every December this place gets flooded with threads to the effect that Christmas is pagan because it occurs on a pagan holiday, and others respond that the Church "redeemed" the date (thus tacitly accepting that the date was indeed a pagan holiday first). Nonetheless, no evidence for the existence of said holiday exists until 133 years after the earliest evidence for the 12/25 tradition. Doesn't it strike anyone else that, given the source material, such a relationship should probably be considered dubious?

Yep. The March 25th date from Sextus Julius Africanus is a big part of why we celebrate the Annunciation of March 25th. Christmas followed after the setting of that date. And March 25th was chosen for several reasons. The most widespread reason being that it was considered to be the date on which the world was created so it made sense to put the beginning of Christ's Incarnation and life, His conception, there and put his birth on December 25th. Many people figured it out different ways and came up with the same general date.
 
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Epiphoskei

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I rather doubt that anyone disagrees that Christmas is celebrated annually on December 25. However, there is absolutely no certainty as to the actual day of the year when Jesus Christ was born. If one wishes to believe that December 25 is the date of the birth of Jesus Christ, then one takes it merely by faith and nothing more.


You've rather missed the point. A great number of people believe that Christmas is celebrated on December 25th so that it would coincide with a pagan holiday. This doesn't pass historical muster. That's all.
 
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98cwitr

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So your suggesting that the pagan holiday came from the Christian date, not the other way around? Interesting... :idea:

the pagan holiday was in effect before Christ...so you do the logic :doh:
 
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Yep. The March 25th date from Sextus Julius Africanus is a big part of why we celebrate the Annunciation of March 25th. Christmas followed after the setting of that date. And March 25th was chosen for several reasons. The most widespread reason being that it was considered to be the date on which the world was created so it made sense to put the beginning of Christ's Incarnation and life, His conception, there and put his birth on December 25th. Many people figured it out different ways and came up with the same general date.

Those folks failed to account for this:

Ex. 12:2 This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you.

IOW, not the spring solstice, but the fall solstice was considered the creation.
 
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Davidnic

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the pagan holiday was in effect before Christ...so you do the logic :doh:


Pretty thin reasoning and actually wrong as well. The earliest mention of Yule or any Pagan festival near that date is in the 350's AD, the earliest equating of Christ's birth on that date is in the 220's AD. And the setting of the date was done in Africa (where there is no mention at all of any festival) and the setting of the date is clearly because of the much much older belief of when the world was created in Hebrew Scripture. There is no mention of the date being set because of any pagan festival.

Did it ever occur to you that for all time the echo backward and forward in time of the most important birth in the history of the world had people venerating that day even though they did not even know how. That even the shadow cast by the Light of the World stirred unknowing hearts to look at the day as special, even if they did not know how to worship Him. And that is it by His birth that day as well as all of us are sanctified.

Could be that. Could also be that, as Sextus Julius Africanus writes before any recorded mention of a pagan festival on what would be the 25th that the world was made on March 25th so the Incarnation of God would happen on that date at the Annunciation...and it is still celebrated on that date today and records show the setting of that feast predates the setting of Christmas.

So when you look at the writings of the early Church and the setting of the feasts...the date of Christmas has nothing to do with the pagan festivals. There are reasons because of inculturation that some customs were absorbed, but that had nothing to do with the setting of the date. That is a modern fallacy.

Like I said, are there some cultural holdovers from Germany and other areas because there was a pagan festival in the area of the 21st-3rd...yep. But there are also uniquely Christian ones as well.
 
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Davidnic

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Those folks failed to account for this:

Ex. 12:2 This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you.

IOW, not the spring solstice, but the fall solstice was considered the creation.

Not saying that they were right or wrong on the date of creation...just why they set it when they did. There are a few reasons they chose March 25th and it is kind of circular.

The early Christians came to that date because of the concept of Integral Lifespan, a widely believed concept at the time that a very Holy person died on the day they were born (or came into being) and it was held, from early on, Christ died on March 25th.

So they also set that as the date of Creation. And as Christ's Incarnation as per the words of the Holy Spirit they set it at the Annunciation and not the Nativity.

There were many reasons for the setting of March 25th. And no matter if people think that is Scriptural it still has noting to do with what the pagans did.

As to more on how the date may actually be correct look at the works of Professor Tommaso Federici, Professor at the Pontifical Urbanian University. He writes:


"As long ago as 1958, the Israeli scholar Shemaryahu Talmon published an in-depth study on the calendar of the Qumran sect, and he reconstructed without the shadow of doubt the order of the sacerdotal rota system for the temple of Jerusalem (1 Chronicles 24, 7-18) in New Testament times.

Here the family of Abijah, of which Zechariah was a descendant, father of John the herald and forerunner (Luke 1,5) was required to officiate twice a year, on the days 8-14 of the third month, and on the days 24-30 of the eighth month.

This latter period fell at about the end of September. It is not without reason that the Byzantine calendar celebrated 'John's conception' on September 23 and his birth nine months later, on June 24.

The 'six months' after the Annunciation established as a liturgical feast on March 25, comes three months before the forerunner's birth, prelude to the nine months in December: December 25 is a date of history"

Even the common argument that shepherds would not have been in the fields in December is inaccurate. That is the time of the year when sheep naturally begin giving birth ("lambing"), and the shepherds would typically stay with the sheep at night to take care of the newborn lambs. In fact, the lambing season would have been the only time of the year in which the shepherds would have stayed with the flocks during the night (see Luke 2:8).


There are many early recorded reasons for when Christmas is...and it has nothing to do with a pagan festival. That idea came later when people confused other issues concerning inculturation in Ireland.
 
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Dorothea

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it wouldn't matter if it were the 25th of December or not. We could get a telephone call from Christ in heaven himself letting us know, and those who hate Christmas, will still talk about us being paganistic and unfaithful to Christ.

I do love the yearly Christmas is eeeeeevuuuuuulll threads, but It was early this year.... not unlike the malls playing jingle bells in November. Can we hurry up and get to the "easter is eeeeeeevuuuuuull" threads?
^_^ What I don't understand is why people give pagans so much power. If they used nature - trees, or what have you in their pagan worship, it's evil and we can't use trees. If they celebrate during a certain season, we can't because they apparently own trees and seasons. :p
 
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