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The Cup

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by WebersHome, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1Cor 11:25 . . In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying: This cup is the new covenant in my blood.

    I would have to say that 1Cor 11:25 is saying that nobody but nobody should partake of the wine species without at least first knowing what the new covenant says; and after knowing what it says; are on board with it.

    For everyone's convenience who may be interested, below is the location of the new covenant in the Old Testament along with its text copied word for word from the 2011 Catholic Bible.


    FYI: The word "oracle" refers to God's statements. In other words; an oracle is a quote. For example Ex 4:22 where Moses is instructed to announce: Thus says the LORD; Israel is my son, my firstborn.

    Jer 31:31-34 . . See, days are coming-- oracle of the LORD --when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors the day I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. They broke my covenant, though I was their master-- oracle of the LORD.

    . . . But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days-- oracle of the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. They will no longer teach their friends and relatives, “Know the LORD!” Everyone, from least to greatest, shall know me-- oracle of the LORD --for I will forgive their iniquity and no longer remember their sin.

    See also the 8th chapter of the letter to Hebrews.
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    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
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  2. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The new covenant wasn't an afterthought; it was essential. The reason being that under the terms and conditions of the old covenant, God can forgive sins, and He can provide a measure of spiritual hygiene to make the people presentable for worship. But the covenant doesn't allow God to wipe their personnel files. Sins; though forgiven, stay on the books.

    Ex 34:4-7 . . Moses then cut two stone tablets like the former, and early the next morning he went up Mount Sinai as the LORD had commanded him, taking in his hand the two stone tablets. The LORD came down in a cloud and stood with him there and proclaimed the name, “LORD.”

    . . . So the LORD passed before him and proclaimed: The LORD, the LORD, a God gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in love and fidelity, continuing his love for a thousand generations, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion, and sin; yet not declaring the guilty guiltless

    In other words; the old covenant doesn't allow God to acquit the guilty. Had that situation continued, then when the books are opened at Rev 20:11-15, every last one of the people's sins-- the forgiven and the unforgiven --would be right there on record to prove that they deserve nothing less than termination in a lake of brimstone; which is a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten metal. Forgiveness under the terms and conditions of the old covenant is little more than a reprieve.

    Long story short: there's a reckoning coming for people whose religion is based upon the old covenant. It will finally, at long last, get its pound of flesh as per Lev 26:14-39, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:15-68. That's a frightful prospect; especially for scofflaws.

    Num 15:30-31 . . Anyone who acts defiantly, whether a native or an alien, reviles the LORD, and shall be cut off from among the people. For having despised the word of the LORD and broken his commandment, he must be cut off entirely and bear the punishment.

    Heb 10:26-27 . . If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.
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    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  3. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes sir, I agree with your comment.

    The new covenant which God is about to establish with people is in view.

    The word “testament” with us properly denotes a “will” - an instrument by which a man disposes of his property after his death.

    This is also the proper classic meaning of the Greek word used here. But this is evidently not the sense in which the word is designed to be used in the New Testament.

    The idea of a “will” or “testament,” strictly so called, is not that which the sacred writers intend to convey by the word. The idea is evidently that of a compact, agreement, covenant, to which there is so frequent reference in the Old Testament, and which is expressed by the word meaning, a compact, a covenant.

    Of that word the proper translation in Greek would have been a covenant, agreement. But it is remarkable that that word never is used by the Septuagint to denote the covenant made between God and man.
     
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I read you to be saying that the Apostles did not understand Christs words about the covenant and the cup. However, Christ instructed them to drink it. That doesn't sound like Christ meant the cup for only those persons who fully understand the connection (covenant and cup).

    By the way, and because this is the Denomination Specific forum...which denomination's theology are you speaking about (or against)?
     
  5. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I've removed that portion of my post lest others should be misled by it as you were.
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  6. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Thanks. So as I read it now, the meaning is that people are not to take the cup without first understanding the covenant like the Apostles presumably did.
     
  7. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was baptized an infant into the Roman Catholic Church back in 1944, and subsequently indoctrinated with enough Catechism to complete First Holy Communion and Confirmation.

    I wasn't told anything about the new covenant and how it relates to the cup; which is just as well I guess seeing as how kids back in those days weren't permitted the wine component of the Lord's Supper, a.k.a. the Eucharist.

    I'm no longer a practicing Catholic, having given up on that religion and defected to Protestantism in 1968. This thread I started is pretty much anti-Catholicism in respect to the Lord's Supper. The Church believes in the new covenant; I'm just not sure that John Q and Jane Doe pew warmer are all that well-advised of its relationship to the cup.
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  8. tz620q

    tz620q Regular Member Supporter

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    I don't see the anti-Catholicism here. Are you still mad after so many years that they denied you a drink of wine when you were a child? Do you think that the Catholic Church does not use the Cup? As far as your assertion that the New Covenant was necessary and the Cup is a vital part of that Covenant, the Catholic church would agree with you. The thought that only believers be allowed to partake is also a very old belief. In fact, when you go to very old Catholic churches, the baptistry is either outside or in another building, just so that unbaptized people, even people studying to become a part of the church would not be allowed in the church.
     
  9. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    In my case, I saw a reference to Roman Catholicism, but yet the subject itself didn't seem to be about Catholicism exclusively. However, it now appears to be settled that our friend had the RCC in mind and no other.
     
  10. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Luke 22:20 . .This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

    The shedding of Christ's blood reflects the 53rd chapter of Isaiah where he's depicted as the sacrificial offering announced by John the baptizer.

    John 1:29 . .The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said: Look, the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    The "sin of the world" includes Old Testament sin too. (Acts 13:38-39, Rom 3:25, Heb 9:15)

    But the "new covenant in my blood" is best explained by some information found in the letter to Hebrews; which borrows from the Old Testament to do so.

    Heb 9:16-20 . . Now where there is a will, the death of the testator must be established. For a will takes effect only at death; it has no force while the testator is alive. Thus not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.

    . . .When every commandment had been proclaimed by Moses to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves [and goats], together with water and crimson wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying: This is the blood of the covenant which God has enjoined upon you.

    So then, Jesus' blood not only takes away the sin of the world, but it also served to sprinkle the new covenant and set it in stone, so to speak.

    This is all a lot to keep in mind during the communion service. As a young Catholic boy, I was not required to; but in time eventually came to see that Jesus would've approved had I been informed to do so.

    Heb 12:24 . .The blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

    Abel's spilled blood condemned a murderer. (Gen 4:10)

    Jesus' sprinkled blood protects murderers. (1 John 2:1-2)
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    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  11. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    No one should partake of either Christ's body (bread) or His blood (wine) without prior instruction and understanding. To do so is putting their immortal souls at risk.
     
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