The culture of saying everyone is toxic

[Dave-W]

Right, which then leads me to wonder why people command self love.

The congregation I was in during college said self-love was demonic. Any form of self-expression or self promotion was strictly forbidden.

 

[bèlla]

I think that post was in regards to one of labelles posts, not yours.

He was responding to your comment to me regarding companionship.

 

[bèlla]

Right, which then leads me to wonder why people command self love, if it's assumed we love ourselves. if it's assumed, there's no need to command it.

Because many people don’t and self-hatred can impact their ability to love others.

 

[quintessentialramble]

Because many people don’t and self-hatred can impact their ability to love others.

ok, but this is not the same thing as taking care your daily needs. There's self love in the sense of bathing and having food and clothing; and then there's self-love viewing yourself as better than you really are.
Here's the thing: We are SUPPOSED to hate ourselves; or at least our sin. We are not SUPPOSED to like ourselves as we are. "There is no one who is righteous, no not one." "Even our righteousness is like rags to Him." The suicidal man at least has understood his sin, albeit perhaps has not understood it in light of a God who wants to forgive that sin and reconcile them to Him. The man who "loves himself' has accepted that he has sinned and has deemed it is a part of who he is and therefore does not need to repent--and therefore is also not saved.

Jesus, when asked, "O Good Master, what must we do to be saved." The response of Jesus was this: "Why do you call me good?" We are called to reject our sin and our selfish desires. If Jesus cannot see himself as good, why do we sinful human think we can call ourselves lovable and good? It doesn't make sense.

 

[bèlla]

Here's the thing: We are SUPPOSED to hate ourselves; or at least our sin. We are not SUPPOSED to like ourselves as we are.

I don’t hate myself. And I know I will never live perfectly. I will err and improve and the Lord will reveal something else that must be addressed.

But throughout the process I don’t embrace a spirit of heaviness or engage in flagellation or self-recrimination. I want to be better but I know I’ll always fall short. And He loves me in spite of this and I walk in that love constantly.

When we read about Jesus’s interactions they weren’t identical. Sometimes He was firmer others more gentle. He knew the conditions of their heart.

I understand what you’re getting at. But that isn’t how He fashioned me. My spirit is light and joyful. I will never be rigid or religious. I couldn’t reach the souls He’s sending me to if I was.

 

[Rajni]

The very nature of our ministry is reconciliation with God alongside forgiveness. What if God said, "I forgive you, but you may not come to me." What kind of love is that? Not one I would want to be a part of.

There's a certain irony in this statement.
So if they're not living up to your standards of love, you don't want to be a part of them?
A bit of a double-standard there, methinks.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Let's talk about this word "toxic" that my friends love to use. I hear this from Christians and non-Christians alike. Whenever it's used, it's typically used to justify why you cut somebody out of your life, because they upset you, they annoyed you, they didn't live up to YOUR standards. But what's really going on here? What's really going on here is two very important things.
1. You fully recognize the toxicity in other people--and you're not wrong. They are toxic.
But ask yourself. Have I been toxic? Have I failed to live up to a standard? We readily outcast others for the very same things we ourselves commit. This story is nothing new. I'll get to that in a second.
2. We use this word toxic because we don't want to use the word sin. Because if we use the word toxic, then it's not about judgment, and it's also not about restoration or repentance--it's about self-righteousness.
Back to that story I mentioned.
9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed[a] thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Toxic is a specific type of social or emotional sin, it is a helpful word since some people are very toxic and cannot be reasoned with so they need to be cut off. Since churches act the same way, there's no real standard to hold people to otherwise.

Healthy boundaries are healthy, and toxic, is toxic.

 

[Sparagmos]

"we all desire companions."

This shows me that your love is rooted in self-interest, and not agape, unselfish, sacrifical love. It sounds like you love if it pleases you. This was never love.
Jesus calls every repentant believer FRIENDS and BROTHERS. The reason he uses this word brother is because we would recognize that the bond of family is tighter than any bond. He compares his church as a bride--what is supposed to be the loyalest of the loyal.
I don't agree with your statement that we don't have to be friends with true believers. The Bible states that our love for the church needs to be greater than the love of those in the world. If you're saying there's no need...you've already failed.
Where I do think we need to be careful is recognizing a true believer.

If you can honestly say you are loving a person but they are not you friend...you do not love them; you are tolerating them and showing acts of charity. But love is deeper than this. Love is built over time and relational. Love is patient love is kind, love is not self-seeking, love is not rude, love keeps NO RECORD OF WRONGS, love rejoices; love reconciles, love forgives. The very nature of our ministry is reconciliation with God alongside forgiveness. What if God said, "I forgive you, but you may not come to me." What kind of love is that? Not one I would want to be a part of.

So how many friends are you spending one on one time with this week? I can only imagine what your schedule must look like if you endeavor to have a relationship with every believer you know.

 

[Sparagmos]

Let's talk about this word "toxic" that my friends love to use. I hear this from Christians and non-Christians alike. Whenever it's used, it's typically used to justify why you cut somebody out of your life, because they upset you, they annoyed you, they didn't live up to YOUR standards. But what's really going on here? What's really going on here is two very important things.
1. You fully recognize the toxicity in other people--and you're not wrong. They are toxic.
But ask yourself. Have I been toxic? Have I failed to live up to a standard? We readily outcast others for the very same things we ourselves commit. This story is nothing new. I'll get to that in a second.
2. We use this word toxic because we don't want to use the word sin. Because if we use the word toxic, then it's not about judgment, and it's also not about restoration or repentance--it's about self-righteousness.
Back to that story I mentioned.
9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed[a] thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The last time someone told me that they were cutting someone out of their life because they were toxic, I thought “it’s about time!” Her friend insisted on drunk driving everywhere with her 13 year old daughter in the car, would go from zero to 60 if you challenged her, and used to post mean things about my friend on FB. She also was engaged in illegal activity. Why should she have kept that person in her life?

 

[quintessentialramble]

I think were missing the point of the original post. The original post was not meant to point out that we should NEVER cut someone out. The Bible clearly indicates we should remove an unrepentant brother from fellowship. The intent of the original post was to show that all men are sinful before God. I do believe that if that person admitted their fault and repented you would be called to receive them back, comfort and restore, as outlined in 1 and 2 Corinthians with the sexually immoral brother.
However, I have also noticed that people have just accepted the cutting off with never utilizing the biblical model of restoration. How can one repent if they know not their sin? In this case the offended would be just as guilty as the sinner for they did not show patience in love. If the people involved in illegal activity were addressed showing their sinful behavior and they still continued in sin, then I have no issue with the cutoff. Even the guy who wrote boundaries is no different. He promotes divorce from 5 minute conversations with one party and then counsels both parties to seek counseling for monetary profit. In short, this comes back to we all fall short of the glory of God. Until we understand this we are never going to love properly.,

 

[bèlla]

I’m human not a hostel. I can’t welcome everyone. We’re advised about friendships in Proverbs and the dangers found in wrong company. We must exercise discernment in our connections.

 

[quintessentialramble]

I’m human not a hostel. I can’t welcome everyone. We’re advised about friendships in Proverbs and the dangers found in wrong company. We must exercise discernment in our connections.

True, but keep in mind how this correlates with the New Testament. Jesus said we must reconcile with a brother who offends us. Between true believers there must be a stronger bond. Jesus only says to treat a person as you would a pagan or tax collector if that person is unrepentant, with the purpose that they are led to a godly sorrow leading to repentance. While Proverbs declares using discernment in your relationships, it also says to obey the Lord in all things; including attempts at correction and reconciliation as outlined in the New Testament. To declare Proverbs but ignore Matthew would be inconsistent--these passages are not opposite instructions--they are correlated.
Jesus says all that follow Him are his brothers AND friends. The core issue of discerning who your friends are should be rested in their walk with Jesus and the Word of God; not on your personal standards, and this was the issue I have with the word Toxic--because it's a secular term used by mental health; and it teaches that anyone who doesn't make you happy is toxic...and this is not biblical Christianity.

 

[Tanj]

I’m human not a hostel.

Well, that's not true.

La-Bella Girls Hostel

 

[quintessentialramble]

Well, that's not true.

La-Bella Girls Hostel

Ironic, but I dont think this post was warranted. I think were fully entrenched in a serious conversation and this could be taken offensively (not sure of it came off that way or not). I would rather keep this conversation to exploring getting to the truth of who Jesus was and what He said, albeit I think LaBelle and I disagree mostly, I think we both love Jesus and want the honest truth, so in that I do try my best to respect her as a person

 

[Tanj]

Ironic, but I dont think this post was warranted. I think were fully entrenched in a serious conversation and this could be taken offensively (not sure of it came off that way or not). I would rather keep this conversation to exploring getting to the truth of who Jesus was and what He said, albeit I think LaBelle and I disagree mostly, I think we both love Jesus and want the honest truth, so in that I do try my best to respect her as a person

Perhaps in future one of the several hundred forums on this board that only Christians can post in might be a good idea for such an important conversation which is nevertheless as off topic to this thread as my post, rather than one of the half dozen forums open to everyone, including atheists like me.

 

[bèlla]

Well, that's not true.

La-Bella Girls Hostel

That’s wild. It seems to be a popular name in the hotel industry. Who knew!

 

[bèlla]

To declare Proverbs but ignore Matthew would be inconsistent--these passages are not opposite instructions--they are correlated.

When I came to faith I laid down all my connections. I gave them to the Lord. If they were redeemed that’s fine. If not, okay. I wanted His input about everyone. I spent years alone with Him. It’s made a significant difference in my walk and view of friendships in all truth.

You have an issue with the word. That’s clear. But some people are toxic. Just like some are abusers, thieves, etc. That doesn’t mean I should invite them to dinner.

Perhaps He’s given you a burden for people who are cast aside. Much like I have one for the wealthy. But I’m aware that my feelings on the subject run deeper than most. I don’t expect them to mirror my viewpoint.

I have some Christian connections and others who aren’t believers. But I’m not their Holy Spirit. I will share a point but I don’t keep shoving it down their throat. They have a right to listen or ignore me. I don’t have a right to infringe upon that and wouldn’t.

Given your stance, how many discarded believers have you befriended? How are you living out the message you’re sharing? You haven’t said anything thus far.

What works have you done?

 

[quintessentialramble]

I typically dont really mention the works I do, I simply let my life be the example. But I've worked with Rescue Mission, often pray with the poor, worked with a company called loaves and fishes (basically a soup kitchen), also worked with the mental health ward after having been in one. (This may explain my stance btw, as my former pastor and his family directly told me i was barely tolerable and cut ties with me, which triggered schizophrenic bipolar for the first time in me, as they disregarded every members questioning when I left).

I'm also very active in breaking down barriers in communication regarding foreign languages, and am very much against the wall, so am often talking to Mexicans in Texas. I'm hoping to find a ministry or job that would allow me to explore that further.

One of the things I've noticed is that I've consistently used Scriptural verses to support my stance, but aside from Proverbs I haven't really seen any Scripture but only what "God impresses upon your heart." God cannot impress upon your heart something that goes against His Word.

The topic of discarded believers is difficult, because more often than not, they are so deeply hurt they dont even consider themselves believers any more. And it usually centers around a sinful pastor or congregation that had no time for someone that didnt benefit their church.
Example: a man being kicked out of a church because he lost his job and couldnt tithe.

 

[quintessentialramble]

So how many friends are you spending one on one time with this week? I can only imagine what your schedule must look like if you endeavor to have a relationship with every believer you know.

I try to meet 1-2 per week, sometimes well just have a random fun night. And what I'm talking about is a clear division, you can have friends who you see at church but perhaps schedules get in the way, but what I'm referring to is more the cutoff entirely, where you no longer speak to that person at church, when no attempt has been made to discuss, restore, and lead to repentance..because that is divison, and it is sin. Again, if the attempt to restore has been made biblically, then I have no issue with the cutoff.

 

[quintessentialramble]

Perhaps in future one of the several hundred forums on this board that only Christians can post in might be a good idea for such an important conversation which is nevertheless as off topic to this thread as my post, rather than one of the half dozen forums open to everyone, including atheists like me.

I don't have a problem with you posting your opinion here; I was more or less worried that your post could have been taken offensively in what seems like a rather tense or controversial discussion. Also, I'm actually usually intrigued by Chris Hitchens arguments for atheism; I rather enjoy his debates with Christians. I personally enjoy his discussions with William Lane Craig; but more often than not Hitchens destroys Christians who don't know how to defend their faith properly.