The Cult Next Door (short film about Bill Gothard)

Daniel Marsh

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For those unaware the Talmud is online

talmud online hear - Google Search

Jews' College (Soncino) Babylonian Talmud
Navigate "Come and Hear"

The Talmud
Halakhah.com Babylonian Talmud Online in English
Babylonian Talmud [Full Text]


What do you make of this text?
Babies
Baby boys may always be used as subjects for sodomy by grown men, according to the Talmud. (See Exhibit 54) The Pharisaic subterfuge here is that until a child reaches sexual maturity, capable of sexual intercourse, he or she does not rank as a person, hence Biblical laws against sodomy (pederasty) do not apply. Throughout the Talmud "nine years and one day" is the fictitious age of male maturity.

Likewise, under "nine years and one day," the "first stage of intercourse" of a boy with the mother, or any grown woman, is harmless, Talmudically. Shammai, to seem more "strict," lowers the age to eight years in some cases. (See Exhibit 82 from Sanhedrin 69b of the Talmud)

A long harangue about the amount of the Kethubah (payment if divorced) a woman gets if her virginity was removed by a young boy, fills Kethuboth 11b of the Talmud. [page 23] (See Exhibit 136 and Exhibit 137) And here, the foul mother may be reckoned "pure," depending on the age of the child. Such degrading use of children was typical of paganism throughout the ancient world.

"When a grown up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this — that is, less than three years old — it is as if one puts the finger into the eye — tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years." (See Exhibit 136, Kethuboth 11b of the Talmud)

This is the standard doctrine of the whole Talmud on baby girls. Sodomy and intercourse with babies is the prerogative of the adult Talmudic man, in contrast to Christ's beautiful teachings concerning little children.

The following is also typical concerning the fictitious age of sexual maturity of baby girls set by the Pharisee "sages:" "A maiden aged three years and one day may be acquired in marriage by coition …" See Exhibit 55 (Sanhedrin 55b), Exhibit 81 (Sanhedrin 69a-69b),Exhibit 156 (Yebamoth 57b), and Exhibit 159 (Yebamoth 60b); also Niddah 44b.

Baby girls of three can invoke sadistic punishments on those who have intercourse with them when they are "Niddahs" (menstruating), a physical impossibility, of course. (Talmud, Sanhedrin 55b - Exhibit 55; Sanhedrin 69a - Exhibit 81)

And, at three, a baby girl is always rated as "one who is fit for cohabitation — that is one who has attained the age of three years and one day." (Talmud, Yebamoth 60b, Exhibit 159) But, in the case of a baby girl who is not Jewish-born, or a so-called "proselyte," she may be "married" thus by a grown priest: "A proselyte who is under the age of three years and one day is permitted to marry a priest;" although "one who is fit for cohabitation," as stated on the same page, is "one who has attained the age of three years and one day." (See Exhibit 159)

This Talmud Yebamoth passage continues with the ruling in the case of a baby under three married to a grown man priest, and declared eligible to continue as his wife. (See Exhibit 160) The baby girl was a "proselyte," of course, so age did not matter. But "under eleven years and one day" a little girl "carries on her marital intercourse in the usual manner." (See Exhibit 152, Yebamoth 12b of the Talmud)

Adultery is permitted with the wife of a minor, and wife of a non-Jew. (See Exhibit 53) The pretense is that a minor not being a "man" yet, and the non-Jew having non-human status, Talmudically, the Biblical law does not apply.

Thus, once again do the Pharisees make the commandments of God of "none effect" as Christ said. (Matthew 15:6, Mark 7:13)

Leviticus 21:7) The laws against incest are most vehement: "The nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother … (Leviticus 18:7) And in the Talmud the Pharisee "sages" reverse these Biblical injunctions:

"If a woman sported lewdly with her young son, a minor and he committed the first stage of cohabitation with her — Beth Shammai say, he thereby renders her unfit to the Priesthood." Here a footnote explains that she could not marry a priest, if this made her profane and the above Leviticus 21:7 is cited precisely. (See Exhibit 82)

We then learn that the dispute concerns only the age of the son, not the lewdness of the foul mother: "All agree that the connection of a boy aged nine years and one day is a real connection whilst that of one less than eight years is not [Footnote: "So that if he was nine years and a day or more, Beth Hillel agree that she is invalidated from the priesthood, whilst if he was less than eight, Beth Shamnmai agree that she is not."] Here silliness reigns supreme, and one understands why Christ called the Pharisees "fools and blind:" "Beth Shammai maintaining, we must base our ruling on the earlier generations" [Footnote states: "When a boy of that age could cause conception."] "but Hillel holds that we do not."

The supposition that boys became fathers at eight is the silly excuse for the Shammai school to argue that the boy must be under eight to leave the mother pure. The standard throughout the Jewish Talmud is that a little boy becomes a person, "sexually mature," at nine years and one day, — another asininity. The whole argument strains at the "gnat" of age and "swallows the camel" of incest between mother and son. (Matthew 23:24)

[paste:font size="3"]Incest with Lot
Dilling: V. Talmudic Immorality, Asininity and inappropriate contentography: The Reprobate Mind baby eye site:www.come-and-hear.com - Google Search
 
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Daniel Marsh

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On the face of it, that looks... appalling. I would want to ask a Rabbi how that is received in contemporary Judaism before saying more than that.


I agree, a Rabbi I spoke with said, it was allegory or hypothetical for something, but I forgot what. It is a text used to degrade the Talmud.

Jewish Talmud Allows Sex with 3-year Old Girls!
NPN Article: Pedophilia: The Talmud's Dirty Secret

A Jewish discussion on it here Does the talmud promote pedophilia?
and here The Talmud Does Not Permit Sex With A Three Year Old


case against talmud sex children - Norton Safe Search
 
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Dave-W

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Don't forget the authors of the Talmuds (there are 2 of them**) were VERY opposed to the Gospel and much of what they wrote was to dissuade Jews from looking at the NT scriptures and the Church with anything other than contempt and fear. While there is good history in the beliefs and customs of the late 2nd Temple Period, and some amazing anecdotes, anything written about the NT and Christians should be suspect.

** All of the links you have are to the Babylonian Talmud. The Jerusalem Talmud is an earlier work and not as extensive, but follows the same outline and format.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Don't forget the authors of the Talmuds (there are 2 of them**) were VERY opposed to the Gospel and much of what they wrote was to dissuade Jews from looking at the NT scriptures and the Church with anything other than contempt and fear. While there is good history in the beliefs and customs of the late 2nd Temple Period, and some amazing anecdotes, anything written about the NT and Christians should be suspect.

** All of the links you have are to the Babylonian Talmud. The Jerusalem Talmud is an earlier work and not as extensive, but follows the same outline and format.


"Traditionally, the Bavli has been considered the more authoritative of the two Talmuds. This privileging of the Bavli reflects the fact that Babylonia was the dominant center of Jewish life from talmudic times through the beginning of the medieval period. ...
The traditional approach to learning Talmud, which emphasized the legal elements of the text, tended to dismiss the Yerushalmi as incomplete and non-authoritative"
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Don't forget the authors of the Talmuds (there are 2 of them**) were VERY opposed to the Gospel and much of what they wrote was to dissuade Jews from looking at the NT scriptures and the Church with anything other than contempt and fear. While there is good history in the beliefs and customs of the late 2nd Temple Period, and some amazing anecdotes, anything written about the NT and Christians should be suspect.

** All of the links you have are to the Babylonian Talmud. The Jerusalem Talmud is an earlier work and not as extensive, but follows the same outline and format.


I don't remember those texts, please post them. thanks, daniel
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Mark 12:26-27Good News Translation (GNT)
26 Now, as for the dead being raised: haven't you ever read in the Book of Moses the passage about the burning bush? There it is written that God said to Moses, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 27 He is the God of the living, not of the dead. You are completely wrong!”
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Is The Talmud Anti-Christian?
By
Steven Plaut
-
17 Av 5771 – August 17, 2011
0



Jews have long been accused of studying anti-Christian texts supposedly contained in the Talmud. Such allegations have been made for so many centuries that even some civilized and fair-minded individuals accept them at face value.
Needless to say, the allegations are the staple fare of anti-Semitic organizations and websites. And it was because of such allegations that volumes of the Talmud often were burned, sometimes at the instigation of the Church.
But is there any truth to it?
As it turns out, every allegation about Talmudic anti-Christian texts is basedon the creative deconstruction of references to various sinners and alleging that these actually refer to Christian figures. The deconstruction operates even when the sinner in question has a completely different name, or no name.
(An invaluable resource on this subject is the webpage “Jesus in the Talmud,” by Rabbi Gil Student, at www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesus.html.)
There are no explicit references to Christianity anywhere in the Talmud, nor to Jesus or Mary, though there are references to people who have names somewhat similar to theirs. There are mentions of several people named Yeshu (the traditional Hebrew name for Jesus), but these were people who lived in different eras, either long before Jesus or long afterward.
There is also a story about an immoral woman named Miriam, but again there is no reason why anyone should assume this is referring to the New Testament’s Mary. The names Miriam and Yeshu appear in the Jewish Bible, where they obviously do not refer to the Christian figures, and both names were evidently commonly used in the era of the Talmud.
The most lurid and common accusation involves a single passage in the Talmudic tractate Gittin, which generally focuses on laws of divorce. Anti-Semites claim the page describes Jesus in the Afterworld being punished by being boiled in excrement.
But Jesus is not mentioned there, nor is anyone with a name resembling that of Jesus. What actually is on the page is a long discussion of legends concerning Roman emperors, starting with Caesar and ending with Titus. The immoral behavior of Titus is discussed at length. The various indignities and punishments Titus suffered later in his life are described, with the presumption that these are divine retributions.
Having discussed Titus’s life at length, a relative of Titus is then discussed. The nephew of Titus was named Onkelos son of Kelonikos, and he converted to Judaism, becoming one of the leading scholars of his age. One of the earliest translations of the Bible (into Aramaic) was undertaken by this same Onkelos and is still an indispensable tool for understanding the Bible.
In the Talmudic digression about the life of Onkelos, a story is cited to the effect that when he was at first contemplating converting from Roman paganism to Judaism but had not yet made up his mind, he conjured up his dead uncle, Titus, from the Afterworld. Titus describes his torments there to his nephew. Onkelos then conjures up two other dead sinners: one is the evil Balaam, who lived many centuries earlier, and the last is a nameless Jewish sinner who had mocked the teachings of the sages. Both are suffering torments in the Afterlife, with the last sinner being boiled in feces. The first two sinners advise Onkeles not to convert, while the last sinner advises him to embrace Judaism.
Anti-Semites claim, somewhat inconsistently, that Balaam in this page of the Talmud is a secret code word used to mock Jesus and also that the nameless Jewish sinner being discussed is Jesus. But of course they cannot both be referring to Jesus. Actually, neither is.
Balaam was never a Jewish code term for Jesus or Christianity. In later Jewish texts, when Jews living under Roman or Christian rule wished to criticize or protest the behavior of the rulers, they used “Edom” and the “descendents of Esau” as code for Romans or Christians. The nameless Jewish sinner included in the story is clearly added to illustrate the torment of a disrespectful Jew compared with the punishments doled out to pagan sinners.
In short, nothing here refers to Jesus or any other Christian figures.
Other segments of the Talmud cited by anti-Semites as “evidence” are even sillier.

In a different Talmudic portion there is a reference to a nameless immoral woman, a descendent of princes, who hung out with carpenters. Evidently because of the carpenter reference, anti-Semites claim this is referring to Mary. There are no Christian sources that claim Mary was descended from any princes. The woman in question is mentioned in the Talmud as someone who practiced sorcery like Balaam.
Anti-Semites claim the original text here, later removed by censors, named the woman “Miriam the Hairdresser.” Just why anyone would think a hairdresser descendent of princes was referring to the Mary of the New Testament is unclear.
One Yeshu discussed in the Talmud is the wayward pupil of a Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Perachiah, and they lived long before Jesus was born, spending much of their lives in Alexandria, Egypt. This Yeshu’s sin was that he made a comment about the eyes of a married woman. The Talmud elsewhere says that this Yeshu had close ties with the government. No one claims Jesus was politically well-connected with the Romans.
If this were some sort of Talmudic diatribe against Jesus, surely the sages involved could have come up with something better than disapproval of a comment made about a woman’s eyes. And from the biographical details, it is clear it could not be referring to the Jesus of Christianity.
A different Yeshu is mentioned in the Talmud as having five disciples, four of whom have names that do not resemble any of the disciples of Jesus, while one is named Matai, a common name that some claim resembles Matthew.
In other pages of the Talmud one can find references to a Son of Stada, who was a sinner executed on the eve of Passover in Lud after being judged by a Jewish court for sorcery. Anti-Semites have claimed this is a code reference to Jesus. But according to three of the four Gospels of the New Testament, Jesus was not executed on the eve of Passover but on Passover itself; the execution was not in Lud; his father was not Stada; he was judged by a Roman court and was not accused of sorcery; and the Son of Stada evidently lived a century after Jesus.
The Talmud cites a dissenting source which claims that Stada was actually the name of the mother of the Son of Stada, and that she left her husband to have an affair with a man named Pandira. This is the section where Stada is also referred to as the Hairdresser Miriam. The first husband of this hairdresser is discussed elsewhere in the Talmud and is known to have lived a century after Jesus. So none of this can be considered to be referring to Jesus.
The sages had their theological disagreements with Christianity, but these were not things they discussed in the Talmud. And while Christianity in its earliest phases was a minority movement of Jews who otherwise practiced Judaism, the rabbis who participated in the debates in the Talmud were preoccupied with other matters.





Steven Plaut is a professor at the University of Haifa. His book “The Scout” is available at Amazon.com. He can be contacted at steveneplaut@yahoo.com.
Is The Talmud Anti-Christian? | The Jewish Press - JewishPress.com | Steven Plaut | 17 Av 5771 – August 17, 2011 | JewishPress.com
 
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Dave-W

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Daniel Marsh

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For a large part - yes.

But this whole rabbit trail has nothing to do with Gothardism.
Remember the OP?

Ok, back to Gothard.

Article:
Bill Gothard’s Evangelical Talmud

We will present a four-part series that will:

• Review Gothard’s teachings that ignore the grace of God and favor putting believers under a Galatian-type of legalism.

• Inspect Gothard’s “Umbrella of Authority,” which Gothard does not seem to be under himself, though he insists everyone else should be.

• Evaluate Gothard’s anti-biblical teachings about ancestral demons and redefining of terminologies

Bill Gothard’s Evangelical Talmud*
Bill Gothard’s Evangelical Talmud – Part 2
Bill Gothard ’s Evangelical Talmud, Part 3: Gothard and the Law
Bill Gothard’s Evangelical Talmud, Part – 4: BILL GOTHARD’S Mystical Approach To Medical Issues

Bill Gothard / IBLP | Midwest Christian Outreach, Inc
Bill Gothard / IBLP | Midwest Christian Outreach, Inc | Page 2
Bill Gothard / IBLP | Midwest Christian Outreach, Inc | Page 3
Bill Gothard / IBLP | Midwest Christian Outreach, Inc | Page 4
http://midwestoutreach.org/category/bill-gothard-iblp/page/5/
http://midwestoutreach.org/category/bill-gothard-iblp/page/6/
http://midwestoutreach.org/category/bill-gothard-iblp/page/7/
http://midwestoutreach.org/2014/04/03/is-jesus-a-sinner-according-to-bill-gothards-teachings/

http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whatever-happened-to-bill-gothard

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/march/35.77.html

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/03/a-matter-of-basic-principles-a-review/
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/category/twistedscriptures/
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/category/twistedscriptures/page/2/
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/category/twistedscriptures/page/3/
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/category/twistedscriptures/page/4/
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/category/twistedscriptures/page/5/
http://midwestoutreach.org/category/journal/
 
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