The Cult Next Door (short film about Bill Gothard)

[Paidiske]

LOL!!!

In the Mishnah and even more so in the Talmuds, one rabbi's word is never taken as authoritative. Indeed, the Mishnah is set up in such a way that an issue is listed and you may have 5 or 6 rabbis (often writing in the name of their own mentors) putting down 5 or 6 different responses.

There are listed in the Mishnah and Talmuds over 100 areas of dispute on doctrine and practice between Rabbis Hillel and Shammai. Both of their positions are recorded.

So I would not put too much stock in what "one rabbi" says.

You don't have to laugh at me, Dave. I actually know a bit about the Talmudic approach to commentary on Scripture; I'm not ignorant.

The point I was raising was simply that there was a possibility, because this was a matter of discussion, that the date you suggested was in doubt. After all, the point of listing many views is to avoid giving the impression that a matter is closed when it is not, no?

 

[Dave-W]

Sorry Paidiske, I was not meaning to laugh at you. But what you wrote so sounded like a great old joke about 5 Jews having 6 opinions. That was the source of my laughter. I meant no disrespect.

And yes, matters are not closed until the Messianic age.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Wow.....I think you were really ahead of the "gang" (so to speak) for recognizing this back in the 70's. I was new to the evangelical protestant church in the late 80's-early 90's and I think that's when all this really got some roots (do you think that's a correct timeline?). We also enrolled our child in the private school at our church (and a few years later began home schooling)....so I was in that "bubble" of isolation for many years---not recognizing what had seeped in until it got to a pretty extreme level.

Good for you for encouraging people to possibly see for themselves how the Bible can be taken out of context. That seems like a confused response to your teaching though. From reading this.....it seems like they knew something was "off" but they weren't sure where.....and out of fear asked you not to teach any longer. I'm glad they included you in --at least--looking over the materials for errors.

I am very sure of the timeline because I was stationed at Lowery AFB in the 70's and that is when I went through Basic Youth Conflicts. I read some books by Gordon Lewis on Cults and Doctrine. He recommends reading texts in context. Also, many of the things He taught about authority did not line up with the chain of Authority in the Military. Around that time, it was well known that the excuse of just following orders would not get one out of war crimes in NAM.

Godon Lewis books were: Decide for Yourself type workbook of looking up and reading scriptures in context. Confronting the Cults https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byl...eld-author=Gordon+R.+Lewis&sort=relevancerank
https://www.amazon.com/Decide-Yours...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513812442&sr=1-1
https://www.amazon.com/Confronting-...&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=confrontiing+the+cults

Judge for Yourself: a Workbook on Contemporary Challenges to Christian Faith1974
by Gordon R. Lewis

 

[mkgal1]

I am very sure of the timeline

Oh....I wasn't questioning anything you'd said (written). I was asking you if you thought that this movement really got some deep roots by the late 80's early 90's. IOW.....I was asking for you to correct me if I was wrong.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

You don't have to laugh at me, Dave. I actually know a bit about the Talmudic approach to commentary on Scripture; I'm not ignorant.

The point I was raising was simply that there was a possibility, because this was a matter of discussion, that the date you suggested was in doubt. After all, the point of listing many views is to avoid giving the impression that a matter is closed when it is not, no?

What books and dvds on the Talmudic approach to commentary on Scriptures do you recommend, thanks daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Oh....I wasn't questioning anything you'd said (written). I was asking you if you thought that this movement really got some deep roots by the late 80's early 90's. IOW.....I was asking for you to correct me if I was wrong.

Sorry, its problems of doctrine and philosophy of living started from the 70's. In fact, after He would leave an area, the need for counseling to correct the problems went up. A lot of the Christian Laymen Counseling Movement had to deal with His problems. Even Officers in the Military did not question his teachings.

Use Control F for find, type 70
The GOTHARD Files: The Scandal
This site puts the start in late 60's
http://www.discoveringgrace.com/2015/10/17/did-he-do-it-history-and-scandal/
This one shows how popular His ministry was in the early 70's
Whatever Happened to . . . Bill Gothard?

Christian Counseling Movement History
The Biblical Counseling Movement

Adam's book was published in 1970
https://www.amazon.com/Competent-Counsel-Jay-Adams/dp/0310511402

"A Classic in the Field of Christian Counseling Competent to Counsel has helped thousands of pastors, students, laypersons, and Christian counselors develop both a general approach to Christian counseling and a specific response to particular problems. Using biblically directed discussion, nouthetic counseling works by means of the Holy Spirit to bring about change "

 

[Paidiske]

What books and dvds on the Talmudic approach to commentary on Scriptures do you recommend, thanks daniel

This might be a good place to start: https://www.amazon.com/Talmud-Torah...&keywords=Talmud+Torah+ways+to+God's+presence

 

[mkgal1]

Even Officers in the Military did not question his teachings.

In your opinion.....do you think this is what caused so much damage (the unchecked and unquestioned teaching) and what kept it/keeps it going on so long?

ISTM to be based on a [false] god that's an authoritarian that merely sets up rules and then never explains "why".....only responding with "because I said so".

A dear friend of mine posted this to FB the other day. It seems to be applicable to this:

 

[Daniel Marsh]

This might be a good place to start: https://www.amazon.com/Talmud-Torah-Presence-Learning-Practical/dp/0761821767/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1513816272&sr=1-1&keywords=Talmud+Torah+ways+to+God's+presence

Thank You,
Is that a revision of one his other books? I recognize the author. That volume is not available in Michigan Libraries :-(

 

[Daniel Marsh]

In your opinion.....do you think this is what caused so much damage (the unchecked and unquestioned teaching) and what kept it/keeps it going on so long?

ISTM to be based on a [false] god that's an authoritarian that merely sets up rules and then never explains "why".....only responding with "because I said so".

A dear friend of mine posted this to FB the other day. It seems to be applicable to this:

The unchecked and unquestioned teaching was a major problem.

Other Factors that came into play was:

Discipleship Submission Movement aka Shepherding Movement.
CHRISTIAN: WHO IS YOUR COVERING?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...Movement.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1ofo6DfRnBm26l3ikhEzuY

Young Pastors who were not adequately trained to develop others.

Christian Growth Ministries of the 70's

The Navigators started in 1933, but jumped on the band wagon

An explosion of para-church organizations like Teen Challenge.
Teen Challenge got new leadership in early 70's and started a cult like living of teens in the same house under the authority of some in their 20's.

Christian celebrities who had no church accountability that did whatever they wanted to do. This created a feel good philosophy. Basically, Churches were competing with televangelism which had no true discipleship.
About Pastor Jim Bakker | The Jim Bakker Show

Lordship Salvation controversy started in the 1950's and continues in some places today.

WHY LORDSHIP FAITH MISSES THE MARK FOR DISCIPLESHIP
Why Lordship Misses the Mark for Discipleship

Gothards main problem was he taught a legalistic philosophy of christian living. Discipleship para church groups tended to lean towards having authoritarian structure. Where its leaders could not be questioned out loud.

Today, we are feeling backlash to things like that as spiritual abuse.
spiritual abuse parachurch - Google Search

 

[mkgal1]

.

 

[Dave-W]

Discipleship Submission Movement aka Shepherding Movement.
CHRISTIAN: WHO IS YOUR COVERING?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...Movement.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1ofo6DfRnBm26l3ikhEzuY
Young Pastors who were not adequately trained to develop others.
Christian Growth Ministries of the 70's

As a veteran of that movement, I got to know almost all of the top level leaders personally to one degree or another.

As it imploded in the mid-1980s, I would definitely concur that the problem was local pastors were not trained well enough, and had few skills they could pass on to the middle and lower level congregational leadership.

The concept was sound. But the execution of it failed miserably as it devolved into legalism.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

As a veteran of that movement, I got to know almost all of the top level leaders personally to one degree or another.

As it imploded in the mid-1980s, I would definitely concur that the problem was local pastors were not trained well enough, and had few skills they could pass on to the middle and lower level congregational leadership.

The concept was sound. But the execution of it failed miserably as it devolved into legalism.

Thank You,
daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

.

for some reason there is nothing in this post.

 

[Paidiske]

Thank You,
Is that a revision of one his other books? I recognize the author. That volume is not available in Michigan Libraries :-(

I don't know; he's certainly been a prolific author.

Maybe if you asked in the Messianic forum here, people might be able to point you to other good resources? (They'd know more than I would, I suspect).

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I don't know; he's certainly been a prolific author.

Maybe if you asked in the Messianic forum here, people might be able to point you to other good resources? (They'd know more than I would, I suspect).

If you have a copy, please check the title page, thanks

 

[Paidiske]

I don't, I'm sorry. Because I have access to a very good theological library, I often just borrow from there rather than by my own copies of books I don't use all the time.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I don't, I'm sorry. Because I have access to a very good theological library, I often just borrow from there rather than by my own copies of books I don't use all the time.

If you remember, next time you are there please check. If it is an university Library, which one? Maybe, I can check its online catalog myself.

I did request 3 or 4 of his books via inter-library loan.

Thanks,
Daniel

 

[Paidiske]

This one: THE DALTON McCAUGHEY LIBRARY | THE DALTON McCAUGHEY LIBRARY

 

[Daniel Marsh]

This one: THE DALTON McCAUGHEY LIBRARY | THE DALTON McCAUGHEY LIBRARY

I was able to poke around the library and the record did not say if it was a revision of another one of his books, but I did find there was a copy of this one via inter-library loan in Michigan.

The Torah in the Talmud : a taxonomy of the uses of Scripture in the Talmud : Tractate Qiddushin in
Neusner, Jacob

Thank You for making that catalog available to me,
Daniel