The Cult Next Door (short film about Bill Gothard)

[mkgal1]

I am unfamiliar with any such custom.

Do you mean you're unfamiliar with the "turning the cheek" or the use of only the left hand for "unclean purposes"?

I'd read all that from Walter Wink--the author of this book, below (you can expand on the page links and read the page). I'm not sure where he got the information from. It just makes more sense to me rather than, "sure....let them hit you". There always seemed to me to be much more to that than indulging someone's desire to strike you.

Jesus and Nonviolence

 

[mkgal1]

I called my wife and told her, "I am at a conference about how to be a better husband and pastor taught by a man who has been neither."

It's too bad that more people didn't make that connection :/

 

[Dave-W]

Do you mean you're unfamiliar with the "turning the cheek" or the use of only the left hand for "unclean purposes"?

The left hand part.

 

[mkgal1]

The left hand part.

Ah.....okay. Just clarifying Thanks.

 

[mkgal1]

Something I found interesting in this video is that Micah had said they thought they were going to "change the world". I'd watched Leah Remini's documentary a while back about Scientology---and she'd said the same thing. That was what kept people in for so long (and accepting horrible treatment). Everything is spun to be about "the greater good" and any hardships that are endured all play into that "sacrifice for others" mentality (which, of course, isn't ALL bad....but they exploit that). That seems to be a common thread.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

1 Timothy 3:12 Deacons must be husbands of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.

 

[mkgal1]

I wonder if that verse is justified in reference to Gothard by narrowing the definition of "deacon" to exclude him from those requirements?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I wonder if that verse is justified in reference to Gothard by narrowing the definition of "deacon" to exclude him from those requirements?

My whole point in quoting the verse is that he does not qualify to be an Elder or a Deacon.

Are you aware of the sexual nature of charges that were brought against him? I only noticed it on google today.

Our Response to Bill Gothard’s Statement

 

[Dave-W]

My whole point in quoting the verse is that he does not qualify to be an Elder or a Deacon.

Neither did Paul but that did not stop him from teaching and being an apostle.

AFAIK, Gothard was neither pastor, elder or deacon in any local congregation. He headed his own self-made ministry as a bible teacher. There are no biblical standards for para-church organizations as they are not recognized at all.

 

[mkgal1]

My whole point in quoting the verse is that he does not qualify to be an Elder or a Deacon.

Are you aware of the sexual nature of charges that were brought against him? I only noticed it on google today.

Our Response to Bill Gothard’s Statement

That's what I thought you meant

It's just interesting that the same verse is used in a much broader sense against women (discrediting their "authority"/dismissing her thoughts...words).......but with men, the definition of "deacon" gets more specific (does that make any sense?).

Yes.....I'm aware of the sexual nature of the charges brought against him. What I think may probably be worse is that this went on for so long (with people *knowing* what was going on). It's been several years since I've read up on all this.....but one thing I'm remembering is that girls were often sent across state lines in order to be in the few states that have very young age of consent. Another thing that happened was (IIRC)....if girls accused men of raping them.....it was the girls that had to go (literally) in front of the congregation and confess themselves for being "impure". It was all very twisted and dark (but people were so heavily brain washed...they bought into it all). It really caught fire with the homeschooling crowd.....with so many of the teachings based on "be not of the world" the isolation allowed for distorted--and unchecked-- thinking (I believe).

 

[mkgal1]

There are no biblical standards for para-church organizations as they are not recognized at all.

.....and that seems to be what remains of Gothardism. There still seems to be large groups of people that belong to non-denominational churches in the U.S. that dismiss anything that's outside of their own church teaching and still carry on a lot of the root beliefs of Gothardism. That's just what cults do---isolate (and make the followers believe the world "out there" scary and evil).

 

[mkgal1]

Have any of you heard of Micah Murray? He's an author/speaker that grew up in that whole system. Unfortunately, I can't share any of his work because it does have some profanity in it. If you're interested.....Google his work. I think it's interesting what he's learned....and the journey he's been on.

One thing he writes about is how often they heard, "don't throw the baby out with the bath water". He wrote:

“Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater!” they say.

I hear it over and over again.

“Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. There was some good and some bad. Just take what good you can and leave the rest.”

I don’t know how.

This is what happens when your definitions of “good” and “bad” are based on lies.

This is what happens when you’re taught to believe that you have “a new approach to life.”

This is what happens when you’re raised in a cult.

///

You know it somewhere in your mind before your mouth will admit it.

We talked about how it was a cult, joking at first. Outsiders could point and accuse and question, but we knew that it wasn’t what it looked like.

Yes, we were often mistaken for Mormon missionaries. Yes, the red neckscarves were reminiscent of Nazi youth. Yes, we knew that sometimes we were simply trotted out as props for political stunts. We knew, and we joked about it. Don’t worry, it’s not what it looks like.


​

 

[Dave-W]

.....and that seems to be what remains of Gothardism. There still seems to be large groups of people that belong to non-denominational churches in the U.S. that dismiss anything that's outside of their own church teaching and still carry on a lot of the root beliefs of Gothardism. That's just what cults do---isolate (and make the followers believe the world "out there" scary and evil).

Gothard did not come up with his beliefs in a vacuum. They were firmly rooted in Wesleyan Holiness teaching from the 1800s. He just took them several steps further into legalism.

 

[Dave-W]

Have any of you heard of Micah Murray? He's an author/speaker that grew up in that whole system. Unfortunately, I can't share any of his work because it does have some profanity in it. If you're interested.....Google his work. I think it's interesting what he's learned....and the journey he's been on.

You can also google the "problems with Purity Culture" that came from Josh Harris' take on gothardism. He also went a few steps farther.

 

[mkgal1]

Ugh.....I had Josh Harris' book and video (Kissed Dating Goodbye). I will look that up. I think I read that Josh Harris had a change of mind later.

 

[Dave-W]

There still seems to be large groups of people that belong to non-denominational churches in the U.S. that dismiss anything that's outside of their own church teaching and still carry on a lot of the root beliefs of Gothardism.

I saw a story about the Duggar Family, (18 kids and counting) where one of the teen boys was caught by daddy dearest Jim Bob masturbating in the bathroom. He was beaten, publicly shamed and forced to do all of his sisters' chores (with his hands tied) the next day or 2.

That is where that stuff leads.

 

[Dave-W]

I think I read that Josh Harris had a change of mind later.

I heard that too. He resigned his pastorate and is now back in college.

 

[mkgal1]

I heard that too. He resigned his pastorate and is now back in college.

I think we're going to see some big changes in the Protestant evangelical churches (especially the non-denominational churches). People like Micah Murray didn't leave the Christian faith.....they're trying to motivate change towards truth *within* the church.

We're living in such an exciting time (I think) with people not being limited to podiums with [bias and corrupt] congregations or leadership having the power to silence those that see dysfunction (and even false teaching). People have choices....and I think that's actually a good thing. Power seems to be a bit more balanced now than it has been in the past.

 

[mkgal1]

Recovering Grace is a website community for those that grew up in the Gothard/IBLP/ATI world:
Recovering Grace: A Bill Gothard generation shines light on the...

 

[mkgal1]

Interesting insight from Joshua Harris:

Why Joshua Harris Kissed His Megachurch Goodbye


Quote--->> I have never attended a formal school full-time in my life.” [Full statement]

Harris, who was homeschooled, has enrolled at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia, for the fall of 2015. His last day as CLC senior pastor will be in April. He leaves with his church's blessing.

Harris began his “crazy, backwards life” in high school when he began publishing his own magazine geared toward fellow homeschoolers. He broke onto the national scene in 1997, at the age of 21, when he published I Kissed Dating Goodbye. The book became a runaway hit. Shortly thereafter, Harris connected with C. J. Mahaney, the founder of CLC and Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM).

“Like me, [Mahaney] had never received formal theological training, and the group of churches he led, which grew out of the Jesus Movement in the 1970s, at that time didn’t place a high value on seminary training,” said Harris. “So instead of attending seminary before becoming a pastor, I moved into C. J.’s basement, worked as an intern in the church, traveled the country with him and began preaching. It was on the job training and I soaked up everything C. J. taught me.”

Mahaney stepped down as CLC's senior pastor in 2004, and a 29-year-old Harris took over the 3000-member congregation “with no formal theological training and no formal training in organizational leadership.”

In 2011, Harris resigned from SGM's board, just weeks after Mahaney took a leave of absence as president of SGM in order to address "various expressions of pride." (Mahaney returned after six months, and later left SGM leadership in 2013.) In Harris’s first sermon after Mahaney's resignation, he said that "our denomination is being publicly spanked, we are being humiliated and being brought low,” according to multiple bloggers.

In December 2012, CLC withdrew from SGM after former attendees of the network’s churches, including CLC, filed a lawsuit alleging that the ministry’s leaders conspired to conceal the sexual abuse of children.


Six months later, Harris disclosed that he had been a victim of sex abuse and encouraged victims to go to the police in the wake of a Maryland judge dismissing the lawsuit’s claims against SGM due to statute of limitations.

Harris and Mahaney both stepped down from The Gospel Coalition's council in 2014 after former CLC youth group leader Nathaniel Morales was convicted on five counts of sexual abuse against three boys between 1983 and 1991. During the trial, Grant Layman, Mahaney's brother-in-law and former CLC pastor, admitted under oath that he had not reported alleged sex abuse allegations.

Harris acknowledged that Layman’s testimony “seemingly contradicts our past communications about the sequence of events involved.”

“I'm not going to at this time try to make some definitive statement until we can clear this up. But please know that there was no attempt to give misinformation and we are committed to clarifying this and if this turns out that the statement was wrong, I will take full responsibility for that,” he said in a sermon shortly after the conviction.

In a thorough Washington Post profile about his decision to step down as CLC’s pastor, Harris suggested that SGM’s lack of denominational structure likely affected how the church responded to the abuse allegations and lawsuit. Harris described CLC as a “a mom-and-pop structure that grew exponentially,” and suggested that it would have been helpful for the church to have had the input of others, something he said he looks forward to when he becomes a Regent student.

“I’m looking at my own training and saying: ‘I want to get a broader perspective…. I want to learn other ways of how pastors and other leaders deal with all these things.’ ... We need to learn from the historic church about ways that there is better accountability and responsibility,” he said.

Harris said he planned to attend for at least a year, with the possibility of staying to pursue a masters degree.

CT’s sister publications Leadership Journal and SeminaryGradSchool.com have previously explored what preparation ministers need today, what changes in seminary educationmean for classic pastoral degrees, whether we still need seminaries and whether seminary education is always necessary for pastoral ministry. Ed Stetzer has argued why church planting may lead us to consider a new way to credential pastors. Her.meneutics examined why we should be concerned that women remain outnumbered in theological education.