The Cruel Myth of the ‘Gateway Job’

technofox

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MachZer0 said:
Don't pay people for not working

If the people can't afford to the basics on minimum wage and there are no higher paying jobs in their local area, and they lack the means to afford to move, what shall they do then?


I think you need to look at this example. Would you rather have them live in homeless shelters?

Actually have you ever been at a homeless shelter?
 
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MachZer0

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They were most definitely NOT "stepping stones". None were jobs with any possibility for advancement--unless I had a college degree. Nice try. Thanks for playing. Check with the guy beside the mop bucket backstage. He has a nice parting gift for you.
I didn't say they were jobs with the possibility of advancement to your current job. But they were stepping stones (which allow you to get from one place to another) to that job
 
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MachZer0

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I've heard this from lots of vets. There is a good deal of nonsense put out in "support" of the military implying that there is all this great "training" one gets in the military. It seems from the outside that the only civilian career that the military prepares one for is being a mercenary (AKA contractor).
The military employs and trains cooks, truck drivers, mechanics and more. All jobs that are also available in the private sector
 
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technofox

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MachZer0 said:
I didn't say they were jobs with the possibility of advancement to your current job. But they were stepping stones (which allow you to get from one place to another) to that job

Again Mach you are linking your thought. Not everyone wants to move up a career ladder. There are literally some people who just love working odd jobs like handymen, fry guys, grill cooks, etc as their form of career with no upward mobility to higher paying jobs. Maybe you need to get out more and work with the working poor. I think retirement is getting the best of you.
 
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whatbogsends

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I strongly disagree with that study based upon my wife and my own experience. We both worked minimum wage jobs and are in the upper middle class via our combined income. Both are jobs pay well despite the heavy burden of student debt to get where we Re at today. I think this study is pretty baseless and full of bias or also know as bull excrement.

On top of that, I learned that I would never want to work in a minimum wage job for the rest of my life. I think I have learned more from dead end jobs than college could have ever taught in regards to work ethic and how hardier can be if you are working poor. It was those kind of jobs that made me realize that we need to help the poor and do more to help those who can't work their way out of poverty due to needing to support a family and meet basic needs. I think people who do not work minimum wage jobs are more often than not, out of touch with reality of the working poor (aka some of those who are born rich, most politicians of our time, and those who were lucky enough not to have to work while going to college).


What minimum wage job did you have? The study specifically referenced fast food type jobs. I also worked minimum wage - grocery store when i was 15 or so, as well as several other low paying jobs (retail, line worker in a manufacturing plant ($6.00/hour, but time and a half for overtime (which i worked fairly regularly)). Even if it was fast food, as the article said, you would be an outlier.

As Sistrin mentioned in this thread, oftentimes working a job that is "beneath you", because it's the only one you can find at the time, is looked at negatively by future employers. They sometimes view no experience as better than experience working at a fast food place.

I'm now (coupled with my wife's income) somewhere in the top 5-10% of household income, but it's due to our college degrees (and her advanced degrees) rather than work experience from those low paying jobs.

What i learned most from my low paying jobs (especially the factory work) was that often times, those working those jobs work harder than many working higher paying jobs, and that wages are not strongly correlated with effort or productivity.
 
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technofox

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whatbogsends said:
What minimum wage job did you have? The study specifically referenced fast food type jobs. I also worked minimum wage - grocery store when i was 15 or so, as well as several other low paying jobs (retail, line worker in a manufacturing plant ($6.00/hour, but time and a half for overtime (which i worked fairly regularly)). Even if it was fast food, as the article said, you would be an outlier. As Sistrin mentioned in this thread, oftentimes working a job that is "beneath you", because it's the only one you can find at the time, is looked at negatively by future employers. They sometimes view no experience as better than experience working at a fast food place. I'm now (coupled with my wife's income) somewhere in the top 5-10% of household income, but it's due to our college degrees (and her advanced degrees) rather than work experience from those low paying jobs. What i learned most from my low paying jobs (especially the factory work) was that often times, those working those jobs work harder than many working higher paying jobs, and that wages are not strongly correlated with effort or productivity.

I worked in fast food, then retail while earning my under grad and graduate degrees. Ditto for my wife. I have worked with the working poor and strongly believe that they deserve better. Some people on here think the poor are lazy, self entitled individuals, but it only shows how ignorant they are. My wife and I just cracked into the top 10% as well when we married :)

Unfortunately we have student loans and a lot of other debt that makes us not feel that way. Either way we are working our way out of debt slowly but surely. It's been tough, but neither one of us regret getting our grad degrees, we just wish it wasn't so expensive.
 
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MachZer0

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Again Mach you are linking your thought. Not everyone wants to move up a career ladder. There are literally some people who just love working odd jobs like handymen, fry guys, grill cooks, etc as their form of career with no upward mobility to higher paying jobs. Maybe you need to get out more and work with the working poor. I think retirement is getting the best of you.
I have no problem with people who want those kinds of jobs. The problem is when they aren't willing to accept the wage.
 
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technofox

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MachZer0 said:
Straw man. Don't recall saying any such thing :wave:

Not a straw man, a straw man requires a counter example that doesn't actually address the original argument.

Mine is just a question trying to get to know what you are thinking.
 
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keith99

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It seems to me the article had a very different definition of a gateway job than I do. They were examining it as if it were a gateway to the penthouse, or at least to a stairwell when just chugging along would eventually get you to the penthouse.

I expect far less from a gateway job. I expect it to be something that gets you out of the basement.

It is a gateway, not for the skilled, but for the unskilled, it does give a chance to show one thing that employers for lower level positions care about a lot, that you are reliable.

Note that for a college graduate this is far less important, most entry level employers consider getting the degree within 4-5 years reasonable evidence of reliability.
 
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cow451

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The military employs and trains cooks, truck drivers, mechanics and more. All jobs that are also available in the private sector

Where have you been? :doh:Contractors are replacing "cooks" and many drivers are contractors as well.

An Army cook is qualified to work in the civilian world as a..... cook. Unless he/she goes to a civilian culinary school, there is no advancement. A truck driver requires a CDL, a civilian credential.

How many jobs are there for Apache helicopter mechanics? Civilian mechanics have to go to school to become ASE credentialed in civilian life.
 
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cow451

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I didn't say they were jobs with the possibility of advancement to your current job. But they were stepping stones (which allow you to get from one place to another) to that job

No they weren't. They just gave me some pocket change. Wealthy parents or a trust fund would've done the same. In fact, having to work those jobs slowed down the rate I could get classes taken and it took longer to get my degree.:doh:
 
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EdwinWillers

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What should we do for those folks that can't work?
Exceptional cases require exceptions to whatever the existing rule(s) may be.

We need solutions (and some exist) for people with disabilities or handicaps that prevent or hinder their ability to work.

Disabilities range from permanent to temporary, and vary in seriousness/degree. So do handicaps. Solutions need to be in place to address them, and that according to their degree, to be sure.
 
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technofox

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EdwinWillers said:
Exceptional cases require exceptions to whatever the existing rule(s) may be. We need solutions (and some exist) for people with disabilities or handicaps that prevent or hinder their ability to work. Disabilities range from permanent to temporary, and vary in seriousness/degree. So do handicaps. Solutions need to be in place to address them, and that according to their degree, to be sure.

Wow I totally agree with your statement. See we don't always have opposing views :wave:
 
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EdwinWillers

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To me, the use of "stepping stone" job can be confusing inasmuch as it tends to connote being on a particular path, where each stone on the path is related to the next.

Entry-level jobs, or "gateway" jobs are not intended to be "stepping stones" in that sense to better paying jobs or careers (unless of course someone's chosen career-path IS at Wendy's or wherever).

What they really are, imo, are "make do" or "get by" jobs while the person is doing whatever else they may be doing for their career (e.g. going to school, apprenticeship or etc.). They are low (if anything) career expectation positions intended strictly to earn some income while taking steps towards a career elsewhere.

I've been a stock boy, paper boy, delivery boy, a sacker, a checker, a prep cook, a steak chef, a bartender, a janitor... none of which are career positions or "stepping stones" to a career. They all helped me along the way TO a career though, which is what I think's important.
 
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EdwinWillers

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Wow I totally agree with your statement. See we don't always have opposing views :wave:
Well truth be told, I suspect most of us here agree in principle to most goals (not all, certainly). Where we tend to differ is in their implementation.

No one wants anyone to be poor, or sick, or homeless, or jobless... So we shouldn't be chiding each other all the time with such accusations. Diverts us from the real discussions / issues of how we giddy up and git to wherever it is we agree we need to git. :)
 
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Joykins

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I've heard this from lots of vets. There is a good deal of nonsense put out in "support" of the military implying that there is all this great "training" one gets in the military. It seems from the outside that the only civilian career that the military prepares one for is being a mercenary (AKA contractor).

Civil service jobs may be an exception because of veterans' preferences.

Yes, I think the only time a fast food job doesn't count against you is if you have a part-time job when you are still a student. And even so, entry level clerical (which I chose as my student job) is probably better in some respects because it gives you opportunity to develop office skills which employers value.
 
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Joykins

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True "entry-level" jobs are jobs for people with little or no job experience but perhaps other qualifications--that may lead to a career ladder. I started an "entry-level" job at more than minimum wage (though not too much higher) when I graduated from college. It was a typical job for an English major, in reference publishing. There were about 5 rankings of position in that department; I worked my way through 4 of them (didn't quite make managing editor) before moving to a much higher-paying position in another department, where there was (still is) a similar ladder; I entered again on the bottom of that ladder but again moved up....The difference between that and fast food fry cook is that the only way up is to manage the restaurant and it kind of end there. And thatis for one person.
 
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whatbogsends

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To me, the use of "stepping stone" job can be confusing inasmuch as it tends to connote being on a particular path, where each stone on the path is related to the next.

Entry-level jobs, or "gateway" jobs are not intended to be "stepping stones" in that sense to better paying jobs or careers (unless of course someone's chosen career-path IS at Wendy's or wherever).

What they really are, imo, are "make do" or "get by" jobs while the person is doing whatever else they may be doing for their career (e.g. going to school, apprenticeship or etc.). They are low (if anything) career expectation positions intended strictly to earn some income while taking steps towards a career elsewhere.

I've been a stock boy, paper boy, delivery boy, a sacker, a checker, a prep cook, a steak chef, a bartender, a janitor... none of which are career positions or "stepping stones" to a career. They all helped me along the way TO a career though, which is what I think's important.

Just an aside, your job history has a lot of commonalities with my own - paper boy, grocery checker, stock boy, bartender (plus working at various retails stores, waiter, mowing lawns, inventory dept at a publishing company, factory line). I wouldn't say, however, that any of them helped me find or achieve a career, they just helped pay some of my expenses until i did.
 
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