The crucifixion of Christ, exactly what was accomplished?

[BNR32FAN]

Is belief and faith all that is needed? If you intend to profess your faith and then go home secure in having ✔'d the box....yeah, I would have my doubts.

Has your faith caused you to put off your will and old self and put on Christ? If you did that years ago, are you still abiding in that same faith? What works demonstrate your faith?

I am full of questions....sorry.

Well that would depend on your definition of the word faith. The English word faith does not encompass the full definition of the Greek word pistis, same with the words believe (pisteuo) and believer (pistis).


The words faith, believe, and believer are all actually 3 different forms of the same Greek word pistis. Faith or pistis being the noun, believe or pisteuo being the verb, and believer or pistos being the adjective. The Greek words pisteuo (believe) pistos (believer) pistis (faith) all imply a certain level of faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty in their definition. These have to do with an individual’s motivation for salvation. Notice in the definition below there’s a number 1 in front of the first 3 descriptions for the word pisteuo, that’s because all three of these descriptions are included in the primary definition.


believe


G4100


Lemma:


πιστεύω


Transliteration:


pisteúō


Pronounce:


pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:


Verb


Language:


greek


Description:


1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed


1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference


1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul


2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith


3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith


2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


believers


G4103


Lemma:


πιστός


Transliteration:


pistós


Pronounce:


pis-tos'


Part of Speech:


Adjective


Language:


greek


Description:


1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on


2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises


1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead


2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation


faith


G4102


Lemma:


πίστις


Transliteration:


pístis


Pronounce:


pis'-tis


Part of Speech:


Noun Feminine


Language:


greek


Description:


1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God


1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ


1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same


2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on


This does not mean that our works in any way play a role in our salvation but the motivation behind those works is what counts. Is our desire self serving or God serving. Does is stem from a selfish desire like self righteousness and recognition or does it stem from love for others and love for God. Those who believe in Christ and desire to do good works out of love for God and others will be saved despite their imperfections but those who do good works as a means to earn self righteousness will not be saved regardless of whether they believe in Christ or not because the scriptures say that those who seek to justify themselves thru their works have denied the necessity of Christ’s sacrifice.


So when you view the word pisteuo as only pertaining to the definition of the English word believe verses like John 15:1-10 don’t make any sense because it completely eliminates any inner conviction or desire to actually serve God as being a necessity for receiving salvation. If a person has this inner conviction and desire to serve God then he will bear fruit and so long as he keeps this inner conviction he will abide in Christ. Simply acknowledging that Christ existed without any desire to serve God will save no one. This is why the definition of the English word believe does not fit the context of the scriptures and appears to contradict other verses.

 

[BobRyan]

In what way do you believe Christ is an atoning sacrifice? How is he atoning sins, if not by taking a punishment for our crime? If it's purely by forgiveness, why was the sacrifice of Christ needed?

1 John 2:2 NIV does say "he is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world"

Lev 16 - shows that the atoning sacrifice is a blood sacrifice.

Heb 10 says it is "once for all".

So then the debt owed by all mankind - for each sin ever committed in all of time -- is the payment due according to the Law of God. That is the sacrifice made. Exact payment for exact suffering and torment debt owed.

But it is God who is "owed" it is His Law that determines the debt owed. It would be like saying "the grocer said my bill was X - then the grocer paid X to himself out of his own funds. Now I am debt free because the grocer is fully paid". The problem with that is that "he paid himself" so in fact he is not getting any value at all out of it.

This gives the grocer every right to then determine under what conditions someone gets the benefit of that payment.

So then Christ as our high priest in heaven - assigns that benefit to the sinner as each person comes to him in repentance

But notice that Christ said in Matthew 18 "I forgave you all that debt" -- only to be followed by "now you must repay all" in the example He gives. So we never "have God locked in a box" or trapped into continuing to account forgiveness so someone who now chooses rebellion against God.

 

[BobRyan]

Why do you not go back to Lev. 4 and 5, since that is much more like the atonement process we should be going through.

Lev 16 is "the Day of Atonement" which comes at the end of each year... signifying the final Day of Atonement in heaven. Daily each person gets forgiveness due to the blood of the sin offering. But there is an end-of-year process called "The Day of Atonement" when final judgment is passed regarding all the sins of the entire year.

Christ as the sin offering -- provides what is needed.

Christ as our High Priest functions in the daily service phase and also in the end-of-year final atonement review and judgment phase.

====================

the key here is in regard to the OP question and the fact that this "atonement" model that the Bible has - allows for the Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked" scenario that Christ describes and it explains how it is that we need the High Priestly ministry of Christ - to this very day to get forgiveness of sins.

 

[bling]

Sorry for not responding to you. I think we discussed atonement in the past and didn't draw even.

"Atonement thus is a disciplining process we go through with God and Christ as we are crucified “with Christ”."

I don't agree with this.

When you came to the realization Christ went through all this because of your personally sins and for your personal benefit did you feel a death blow to your heart, like those on Pentecost (Acts 2:37), really the worse feeling you could experience and still live?
What does it mean for you to be, "crucified with Christ"?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sorry for not responding to you. I think we discussed atonement in the past and didn't draw even.

"Atonement thus is a disciplining process we go through with God and Christ as we are crucified “with Christ”."

I don't agree with this.

Yes I would say any discipline that is necessary as a result of sin would not constitute forgiveness. If we have to be disciplined for our sin then that would mean that Christ did not fully pay for it.

 

[bling]

Lev 16 is "the Day of Atonement" which comes at the end of each year... signifying the final Day of Atonement in heaven. Daily each person gets forgiveness due to the blood of the sin offering. But there is an end-of-year process called "The Day of Atonement" when final judgment is passed regarding all the sins of the entire year.

Christ as the sin offering -- provides what is needed.

Christ as our High Priest functions in the daily service phase and also in the end-of-year final atonement review and judgment phase.

====================

the key here is in regard to the OP question and the fact that this "atonement" model that the Bible has - allows for the Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked" scenario that Christ describes and it explains how it is that we need the High Priestly ministry of Christ - to this very day to get forgiveness of sins.

“Daily” only those who brought the correct sacrifice to the temple were forgiven of their unintentional sins, but their other sins required much more severe disciplining/punishment.

Where are you finding: "The Day of Atonement" when final judgment is passed regarding all the sins of the entire year.”?

Lev. and Duet. Are full of “punishments” for sins which were to be carried out without mercy and swiftly. The fact that the Jews could not follow through with these very just (yet extremely server) punishments does not mean the “Day of Atonement” solved their sin of not following God’s judgement on others.

Heb. 9:7 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

Heb. 10: 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins….8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law….11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

These are only sins committed in ignorance.

 

[zoidar]

When you came to the realization Christ went through all this because of your personally sins and for your personal benefit did you feel a death blow to your heart, like those on Pentecost (Acts 2:37), really the worse feeling you could experience and still live?
What does it mean for you to be, "crucified with Christ"?

No, I felt thankfulness, joy and love!

To me it means Jesus took the place that I deserved on the cross. The strikes of the whip, the nails were really mine.

 

[zoidar]

1 John 2:2 NIV does say "he is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world"

Lev 16 - shows that the atoning sacrifice is a blood sacrifice.

Heb 10 says it is "once for all".

So then the debt owed by all mankind - for each sin ever committed in all of time -- is the payment due according to the Law of God. That is the sacrifice made. Exact payment for exact suffering and torment debt owed.

But it is God who is "owed" it is His Law that determines the debt owed. It would be like saying "the grocer said my bill was X - then the grocer paid X to himself out of his own funds. Now I am debt free because the grocer is fully paid". The problem with that is that "he paid himself" so in fact he is not getting any value at all out of it.

This gives the grocer every right to then determine under what conditions someone gets the benefit of that payment.

So then Christ as our high priest in heaven - assigns that benefit to the sinner as each person comes to him in repentance

But notice that Christ said in Matthew 18 "I forgave you all that debt" -- only to be followed by "now you must repay all" in the example He gives. So we never "have God locked in a box" or trapped into continuing to account forgiveness so someone who now chooses rebellion against God.

Then we can say our dept is paid, but we are not forgiven until we repent? My Lutheran friend strongly emphases we are forgiven before repentance. Repentance to him is receiving that forgiveness by faith.

 

[BobRyan]

Then we can say our dept is paid, but we are not forgiven until we repent?

The once for all atoning sacrifice has been completed at the cross. It's provision is sufficient for all the sins of all mankind.

But "God gets tortured - not paid" in this deal.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Can we try to keep this from becoming a Arminian vs Calvinst thread?

I have been thinking a lot of the "objective" side to the sacrifice of Christ. Most Christians say my punishment was taken before I came to faith. If that is true why do I need to believe to be saved? You understand my thinking?

If we on the other hand say that Christ conquered sin by taking the punishment for sin on himself, as a sacrifice for sin to received by faith (that we are not atoned until we have faith), it sounds more logical to me. You follow? The only problem is, can I fully rest in that I'm forgiven if I need faith to be forgiven? Then I first need to know I have faith, to trust that I'm forgiven. Complicated?

When Jesus Christ of Nazareth died, the veil in the temple was torn in two. The barrier between man and God was taken away. No more animal sacrifice was to be performed as the "Last" sacrifice who takes the sins of the WORLD, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, made it possible for us to have union directly with the Father through the power of His Holy Spirit. This is the truth. Be blessed.

 

[Chris35]

God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."


Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God

and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.


Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

Its Gods will to only save those that believes. Before coming to Jesus we were all under Gods wrath. The sacrafice of Jesus, only applies to those that believe.

 

[bling]

No, I felt thankfulness, joy and love!

To me it means Jesus took the place that I deserved on the cross. The strikes of the whip, the nails were really mine.

Was it thus wrong for the Jews on Pentecost to feel the way they did, since it seems to be a natural reaction to Peter's "Christ Crucified" sermon and telling them "You crucified the Messiah"?
Why did Pater not talk about Christ taking their place in a Christ Crucified Sermon?
The greatest Love is being shown at this same time, but what about sadness?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Can we try to keep this from becoming a Arminian vs Calvinst thread?

I have been thinking a lot of the "objective" side to the sacrifice of Christ. Most Christians say my punishment was taken before I came to faith. If that is true why do I need to believe to be saved? You understand my thinking?

If we on the other hand say that Christ conquered sin by taking the punishment for sin on himself, as a sacrifice for sin to received by faith (that we are not atoned until we have faith), it sounds more logical to me. You follow? The only problem is, can I fully rest in that I'm forgiven if I need faith to be forgiven? Then I first need to know I have faith, to trust that I'm forgiven. Complicated?

Colossians 2 might answer this question.

All the written code was against you being saved, so it was nailed to the cross with Jesus, so you could receive salvation.

 

[Hawkins]

Can we try to keep this from becoming a Arminian vs Calvinst thread?

I have been thinking a lot of the "objective" side to the sacrifice of Christ. Most Christians say my punishment was taken before I came to faith. If that is true why do I need to believe to be saved? You understand my thinking?

If we on the other hand say that Christ conquered sin by taking the punishment for sin on himself, as a sacrifice for sin to received by faith (that we are not atoned until we have faith), it sounds more logical to me. You follow? The only problem is, can I fully rest in that I'm forgiven if I need faith to be forgiven? Then I first need to know I have faith, to trust that I'm forgiven. Complicated?

It's rather a justification demanded by Law.
Angels will be judged by Law in the Final Judgment. 2/3 of will pass to enter Heaven.
If the same Law applies to humans, none of them will make it to Heaven.
Humans are thus judged by covenants instead of Law.
Law thus demands a justification for humans not to be judged by Law in the same way as the angels.

Jesus is to fulfill the Law. His sacrifice is for humans only but not angels.
With covenants in place, which are brought by Jesus, there will be less than 1/3 humans make it to Heaven (i.e., through the narrow gate).

 

[zoidar]

With covenants in place, which are brought by Jesus, there will be less than 1/3 humans make it to Heaven (i.e., through the narrow gate).

How did you come up with that number?

 

[1213]

...If we on the other hand say that Christ conquered sin by taking the punishment for sin on himself, as a sacrifice for sin to received by faith (that we are not atoned until we have faith), it sounds more logical to me. You follow? The only problem is, can I fully rest in that I'm forgiven if I need faith to be forgiven? Then I first need to know I have faith, to trust that I'm forgiven. Complicated?

I think the best way is to take what the Bible tells. For example, Jesus forgave sins even before his death and also his disciples have the right to forgive sins, without death.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Jesus was not killed as a sacrifice. Jesus used his life for us, by preaching the good news. He could have taken the easy way and live like a king, but instead of that, he spent his life for our benefit and that way he sacrificed his life for us. I think it can be compared to a soldier that sacrifices his life by defending his country.

The forgiveness is there, even if you would not believe it. But it is not useful, if you continue in sin. That is why the important thing is that person understands, if he has done wrongly and repents and wants to improve. That is why I think Jesus said:

"Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."
John 8:11

"Repent! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."
Matt. 4:17

 

[Hawkins]

How did you come up with that number?

It is in the Bible.

Did you attend any churches?

 

[pescador]

It is in the Bible.

Did you attend any churches?

a) where?
b) say what?