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Featured The crucifixion of Christ, exactly what was accomplished?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by zoidar, Sep 27, 2020.

  1. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Can we try to keep this from becoming a Arminian vs Calvinst thread?

    I have been thinking a lot of the "objective" side to the sacrifice of Christ. Most Christians say my punishment was taken before I came to faith. If that is true why do I need to believe to be saved? You understand my thinking?

    If we on the other hand say that Christ conquered sin by taking the punishment for sin on himself, as a sacrifice for sin to received by faith (that we are not atoned until we have faith), it sounds more logical to me. You follow? The only problem is, can I fully rest in that I'm forgiven if I need faith to be forgiven? Then I first need to know I have faith, to trust that I'm forgiven. Complicated? :p
     
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  2. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother? Supporter

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    If Our Lord took the punishment for our sins then our sins have not been forgiven. Rather, the guilt and consequent punishment were simply applied to someone else. That's not "forgiveness"; that's debt consolidation.

    What Our Lord did on the cross was offer a perfect sacrifice to God whereby our sins are forgiven and His wrath is assuaged. This is Satisfaction Theory Of Atonement.
     
  3. RCrihfield

    RCrihfield New Member

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    Is belief and faith all that is needed? If you intend to profess your faith and then go home secure in having ✔'d the box....yeah, I would have my doubts.

    Has your faith caused you to put off your will and old self and put on Christ? If you did that years ago, are you still abiding in that same faith? What works demonstrate your faith?

    I am full of questions....sorry.
     
  4. GraceBro

    GraceBro Eternally Forgiven, Alive, and Secure.

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    It is correct that Jesus Christ took your punishment before you came to faith (2 Corinthians 5:19; 1 John 2:2). However, the reason you need to believe to be saved is that the death of Jesus Christ doesn't save anybody. It only made salvation possible. "For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins (1 Corinthians 15:16-17)." The problem between mankind and God is not that we are sinners in need of forgiveness. The problem is that we are spiritually dead to God and need His life restored to us through His indwelling Holy Spirit. "For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life (Romans 5:10)!"

    Furthermore, Jesus Christ did not "atone" for sin. He was the "propitiating" sacrifice for it. Atonement covered sin. It remembers sin. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ took sin away, no longer to be remembered. Faith is responding to the truth God reveals to you. The way you respond to the truth that you are forgiven is by not seeking forgiveness when you sin. Instead of asking God to forgive you, through various bloodless sacrifices God does not require or accept, you tell Him thank you. You thank God because sin is so serious that it deserves the death of God as payment. You don't have a life to give that God would accept as payment for your sins. That is why the death of Jesus Christ is a once for all sacrifice that purchased eternal redemption for our sins. The sin issue is dead between God and man.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
  5. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Haha, I don't know how to keep this from becoming a Calvinism/Arminianism thing when I mention that the very question of "MY" faith is what drove me to question the whole kind of Gospel that would rest on such a silly mind as mine, and eventually to bring me to to many conclusions that I later found out were Reformed, or Calvinistic in nature.

    First, maybe the most pervasive of those conclusions was that God can (and will) do whatever he wants, and owes me no answer for it.

    Secondly, probably the most forceful of those conclusions was that my integrity of decisions, my understanding of exactly what I was deciding, my will power, my supposed sincerity, were not up to the job of securing this salvation that I had heard was contingent on my "accepting of Christ into my heart" or whatever of the ways the idea is put. I had no end of experience to show that my heart is unreliable, and my intelligence too short for the job.

    I reasoned that my decision, weak and stupid as it was, was made strong by God; that even had a poetic feel to it, since the Bible talks like that at times. I knew that if I could only consistently walk with God, in obedience, filling my mind with Christ, resisting the flesh, and on and on, I would have confidence that indeed I did belong to him, and that the Spirit would witness with my spirit that I was a son of God. I spent my years trying to find out "that one thing I had gotten wrong" that would finally open the way for me to be obedient and consistent.

    There is no way I can describe the agony of soul I went through for those years --I would wish them on nobody-- but I thank God for them now, for the knowledge and fellowship and joy and confidence I found IN HIM. I found out he is doing all this FOR HIS OWN SAKE, and no matter what side of eternity I find myself on, my confidence doesn't hinge on that question, but on the happiness and satisfaction of God. He WILL do whatever he wants, and I am his to use as he pleases, and that alone is VERY good. I am SURE that he is very pleased with his plan, and it is my satisfaction to know that he will accomplish it.

    Another conclusion I came to was that my faith is only mine in that I am subject to it and it pertains to me, but it is not the result of my decision or will. It was placed in me by God himself, and is a product of the Spirit of God in me, which is what makes it real. It would be more accurate to say I'm along for the ride, than to say the faith is something I control or produce by force of will.

    As to salvation then, and my eternal destiny, it is in God's purvue, not mine, and that is VERY GOOD.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
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  6. Jeshu

    Jeshu Bought by His Blood Supporter

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    In your scenario it depends on the person to be saved, his or her faith saves them, not Christ. i on the other hand believe everybody has been saved by default by Christ, 1 Timothy 4:9-10, 1 John 2:1, but we are cut of from our salvation because we live in lies. So we first need to step out of our life of lies and through faith in the truth step into the truth of Jesus before we can receive our salvation awaiting us in Heaven.
     
  7. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are a universalist?
     
  8. GraceBro

    GraceBro Eternally Forgiven, Alive, and Secure.

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    No, I am not.
     
  9. Rachel20

    Rachel20 Active Member

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    You fear him and hope in his mercy? That is faith! Put the two verses below together

    But without faith it is impossible to please him ... Hebrews 11:6

    The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy. Psalm 147:11
     
  10. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    I have heard of eternal justification, the belief that we were justified before we came to faith, but it is not a very popular one. Christ's work must be applied to the believer through faith by the operation of the Holy Spirit.
     
  11. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you mean by Jesus sacrifice we can be forgiven or that we are forgiven? If we allready are forgiven, why we need faith for salvation?

    I have to read up on this theory.
     
  12. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was saved 10 years ago. It's not the same now as then. What would you have me do? You want me to look and see if I have works?
     
  13. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Of course it has to be applied, the question is why? If God has forgiven me, how could my faith or lack of faith change that?
     
  14. RCrihfield

    RCrihfield New Member

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    No..no...no. Here you are sharing your faith with a community of christians and atheists and agnostics etc. I don't know you more than that, but it seems you are still faithful to your original calling.

    Has your faith...your understanding of Him changed. I would hope so. When we are first married (which is a great analogy since we are married to Christ) we enjoy a honeymoon period full of excitement and high emotion. When life restarts that high levels off. Do you now love your spouse less? I hope not.

    I barely knew my wife when we got married. Now that I know her better I love her even more. Does the Word dictate what you do or don't do? Do you feel cheated because you can't do the sins others do? Do you commit adultery with the world all week then go to church on Sunday and sing "He Leadeth Me"?

    There is an emotional component to our faith, no doubt, but our faith is demonstrated by what we do...how we live. Works are not about feeding the hungry or saving souls or singing on the praise team. Does your life reflect Christ? That is the work of faith.
     
  15. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother? Supporter

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    Satisfaction theory of atonement - Wikipedia

    It basically holds that we are forgiven when we join our will and suffering to His will and suffering by faith. I find it to be a far more doctrinally (and logically) reasonable model than the alternatives.
     
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  16. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    I have not solved the problem of where to begin the explanation, but it might be best to go back to the Jewish understanding of atonement learned from actually individually personally going through the atonement process. Christians lack this experience and instead have developed preconceived ideas of atonement from poor theories.

    First off: If you are forgiven 100% then there is nothing to pay and if Christ paid 100% there is nothing to forgive. That is Law.

    Penal Substitution is not fair/just where you have the innocent being punished (even if the innocent is willing to be punished) so the guilty can go free.

    The “Satisfaction Theory of Atonement” put the problem of forgiveness in God’s lap needing Christ to be cruelly, tortured, humiliated and murdered (sounding very blood thirsty) in order to be personally satisfied to forgive.

    God would have no problem forgiving, God is totally fair and just, but any rebellious disobedient child needs more then just forgiveness, since if at all possible, a wonderful parent would see to the fair/just Loving discipline of His children for all the benefits discipline provides. Atonement thus is a disciplining process we go through with God and Christ as we are crucified “with Christ”.

    The Jews under the Law would have a good understanding of atonement by experiencing atonement for very minor sins which took little disciplining:


    Lev.4 starts atonement off giving details of what the priest must do, which you should read and understand, but Lev.5 gets into more detail about the individual, so please read Lev. 5 with much thought. I find people with pet theories of atonement skip Lev. 5 all together and might go to Lev. 16, but the day of atonement has some lite symbolic references to Christ, Lev 5 is a closer representation. I will discuss Lev. 16 if you want any time, but it takes some explaining of what and why it was needed by itself. Please read Lev. 5 before going further.

    Atonement is much more than the sacrifice itself, it is a process which we can see from the Old Testament examples of the atonement process.

    We can start with Lev. 5: 3 or if they touch human uncleanness (anything that would make them unclean) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt; 4 or if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. … 10 The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.

    Lev. 5 is talking about some really minor sins almost accidental sins and very much unintentional sins, there is no atonement process at this time for major sins, intentional direct disobedience toward God (these require banishment or death of the sinner).

    The atonement process includes confessing, securing a good offering, personally bringing the offering to the priests at the temple altar, the priest has to offer it correctly and after the atonement process is correctly completed the sinner’s sins will be forgiven.

    Note also the relationship between the sinner and the offering, the offering is “as a penalty for the sin” and not a replacement for the sinner. The idea of “penalty” is a “punishment” for the sinner, yet punishment of your child is better translated “disciplining”.

    Reading all of Lev. 5: we have a lamb, two doves and a bag of flour all being an atoning sacrifice for the exact same sin, but vary with the wealth of the sinner, yet God does not consider the wealthy person of great value then the poor person, so what is happening? We can only conclude there is an attempt to equalize the hardship on the sinner (penalty/punishment/discipline). In fact, this might be the main factor in the atonement process at least Lev. 5. God is not only forgiving the sins, but seeing to the discipling of the sinner (like any Loving parent tries to do if possible). The problem is it can only be done for minor sins at this time.

    Please notice there is an “and” just before “they will be forgiven”, suggesting a separate action, so the forgiveness is not part of the atonement process, but comes afterwards (this will be discussed more later).

    Do you see the benefit for the Jewish people (nothing really to help God out here) going through this atonement process? That rich person had to water, feed, hang on to a lamb, he is not the lamb’s shepherd, so for hours waiting in line to get to the priest he fighting this lamb and the poor person may have skipped meals to get that bag of flour, so he has an equal hardship also. They are going to be more careful in the future and those around them will not want to go through the same thing. Yes, they can experience worship, forgiveness, and fellowship in the process.

    We should be able to extrapolate up from extremely minor sins to rebellious disobedience directly against God, but that is a huge leap, so the hardship on the sinner will have to be horrendous, the sacrifice of much greater value (penalty for the sinner), and this will take a much greater Priest.

    Please think up some questions to ask me.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    perfectly.

    In the Bible the model for salvation and forgiveness is the "Atoning Sacrifice" model that the Bible presents in Lev 16. 1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only .. but for the sins of the whole world".
    1. Christ as the sin offering, the lamb of God
    2. And Christ as our High Priest making Atonement - Heb 7:25 ever liveth to make intercession for us.

    The more "popular" model is something like a "grocery store" where you check out - someone else pays for your groceries - and as you leave the store - you may toss them all into the trash if you wish - because they are now yours, bought and paid for... deal done. No matter what you do - the grocer is not going to run after you and take them back.

    By contrast we have the forgiveness of Matthew 18 in the Bible

    Matt 18
    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
     
  18. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Why do you not go back to Lev. 4 and 5, since that is much more like the atonement process we should be going through. Lev. 16 is more to relieve the anxiety for sins you think and worry about but might not have even committed. You did not do them knowingly. Lev. 5 are unintentional sins you came to realize you did commit, but are not rebellious disobedience directly against God. Those rebellious sins we all commit resulted in banishment or death for the sinner and the Day of Atonement just brought them to memory, but did nothing to relieve them.
     
  19. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sorry for not responding to you. I think we discussed atonement in the past and didn't draw even.

    "Atonement thus is a disciplining process we go through with God and Christ as we are crucified “with Christ”."


    I don't agree with this.
     
  20. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In what way do you believe Christ is an atoning sacrifice? How is he atoning sins, if not by taking a punishment for our crime? If it's purely by forgiveness, why was the sacrifice of Christ needed?
     
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