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Originally posted by Neo
I do not need faith because my expectations are based on reason and logic. Faith is without reason and logic.
Because it's logical.Originally posted by seebs
And why, pray tell, do you believe that reason and logic are effective tools?
Originally posted by Neo
Because it's logical.
Are you trying to tell me that logic isn't logical? Thats ridiculous!Originally posted by seebs
No, it isn't. That's perfectly circular, and circular reasoning is not good logic.
Seriously: Why do you believe that this particular tool is a good one?
Did you not read the definition of 'logical' that I posted? Since faith is without logic, it is also without reason.Originally posted by Blackhawk
"Faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence"
Does this definition say that faith is a belief that does not rest on reasonable evidence?
I don't need to prove that logic is logical, it's logical by definition. It's like asking me to prove that the color green is actually green. Stop being ridiculous.Originally posted by Blackhawk
"
Are you trying to tell me that logic isn't logical? Thats ridiculous!"
He is saying that you can't prove that logic is logical by logic. that is ciruclar. it would be the same as me saying I believe that Jesus is God because Jesus is God.
Originally posted by Neo
Are you trying to tell me that logic isn't logical? Thats ridiculous!
Originally posted by Blackhawk
"Did you not read the definition of 'logical' that I posted? Since faith is without logic, it is also without reason."
i read it i just did not see where it said that faith is without logic at all. I think the key word here is "proof"
I 'trust' logic because it works."I don't need to prove that logic is logical, it's logical by definition. It's like asking me to prove that the color green is actually green. Stop being ridiculous."
We are not asking for a definition of logic. Wewant to know why you trust logic.
Originally posted by Neo
Faith is not reasonable, because it is not logical. What about that do you not understand?
I 'trust' logic because it works.
Originally posted by ZoneChaos
The part about Faith no being logical...
Give me an example of faith working.Ditto on faith...
Give an example.Originally posted by Blackhawk
I think that we have to have some assumptions or have faith in some things just because or we will not get anywhere.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence
If your belief in God did rest on logical proof or material evidence, your belief wouldn't be faith, and you would be able to prove that God exists.Originally posted by Cancer To Iniquity
Biased definitions are a rather meaningless way of proving something illogical. I mean, if we define faith as belief without logic, then there's no debating the logic of faith, but you have yet to show that Christianity fulfills this definition.
how about the following from American Heritage dictionary?
The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
-jon
Originally posted by Vorkosigan
This is a common and somewhat naive point of view. Logic and reason are known to be successful tools because when we use them in conjunction with data gained from interactions with reality, we get information that is both reliable and useful.
Once we use logic and reason to evaluate our interactions with reality, we gain useful and reliable knowledge that refines our usage of logic and reason, enabling further fruitful exploration of the world. However, during that cycle from logic to world to logic, which you incorrectly label a "circle," a critical element has changed: we have more knowledge than at the previous iteration. Thus, we are not looking at a "circle," but a positive feedback loop. Eventually, we gain enough knowledge to understand why logic and reason exist, and what their roots are, and why they work.
Consequently, no special epistemological analysis is necessary to understand the problem you pose. It is the constant iteration of such positive feedback loops that gives modern knowledge-production methods such speed and power.
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