The Cosmological View of Biblical Writers

jds1977

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I'm sure I don't need to tell you that a circle is not a 3-dimensional object.
So, you think Isaiah was talking about a 2-d circle?
Wouldn't be the first time. See 2 Samuel 24:1 vs. 1 Chronicles 21:1
http://www.carm.org/diff/2Sam24_1.htm
Numbers 25:9 vs. 1 Corinthians 10:8.
There is no contradiction here. 1 Cor. 10:8 tells us that in "one day" fell 23,000...Numbers tells us that the plague killed 24,000 total. Obviously, 1000 died later than that one day.
Does your weatherman also tell you that after the sun sets at night, it rushes through the cosmos back to its starting position? (Ecc. 1:5)
Wow...you must know my weatherman!
How can YOU tell?
I try to study my bible more than these threads.
 
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Mallon

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So, you think Isaiah was talking about a 2-d circle?
It would fit with everything else the Bible has to say about the shape of the earth (see Job 38:14, for example).
If Isaiah wanted to describe the earth as a sphere, he could have used the Hebrew word for "ball", kaduwr, just as he does in Isaiah 22:18.
http://www.carm.org/diff/2Sam24_1.htm

There is no contradiction here. 1 Cor. 10:8 tells us that in "one day" fell 23,000...Numbers tells us that the plague killed 24,000 total. Obviously, 1000 died later than that one day.
While both these explanations come across as ad hoc, I'll accept them for the sake of argument. Regardless, these are but a couple of examples from a list of many (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html).
Some others that make me wonder...
Gen. 32:30 vs. John 1:18
1 Kings 9:23 vs. 2 Chron 8:10
1 Kings 16:6-8 vs. 2 Chron 16:1
etc.
Wow...you must know my weatherman!
I'll take that as concedence. Let's be honest.
I try to study my bible more than these threads.
Good! But that doesn't really answer my question. I study my Bible, too, but come to obviously different conclusions.
 
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Assyrian

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Wow...you must know my weatherman!
Your weatherman wrote Ecclesiastes?

Eccles 11:3 If the clouds are full of rain, they empty themselves on the earth. Well, ok, but is it really that much help planning next week's church picnic?
 
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laptoppop

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I think the basic disconnect here is that many TEs expect the writings of a person from the ANE to be limited to that person's understanding of science and reality. I'd like to point out two things:
First, the religion and culture of the Hebrew people was called to be drastically different than those around them. Specifically, it was monotheistic instead of polytheistic, and grounded in history rather than myth. God was extremely concerned about cultural contamination with the surrounding people.

Second, the Scriptures are not limited to the human understanding of the writers. In order to demonstrate that point, God often included future prophecy as part of the message -- things beyond the understandings of the writers. The Scriptures contain knowledge and information beyond the limitations of the writers.
 
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Mallon

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First, the religion and culture of the Hebrew people was called to be drastically different than those around them. Specifically, it was monotheistic instead of polytheistic
This much is obvious.
and grounded in history rather than myth.
This much isn't. Could you please elaborate using examples?
Second, the Scriptures are not limited to the human understanding of the writers. In order to demonstrate that point, God often included future prophecy as part of the message -- things beyond the understandings of the writers. The Scriptures contain knowledge and information beyond the limitations of the writers.
Granted.
But the Bible isn't simply a collection of prophecies, however. Paul, in writing 1 Cor 7:10-12, for example, contrasts knowledge given him by God with his own moral prescription. I have heard a few ad hoc apologetics argued against this position before, which simply insist that Paul was, indeed, verbally inspired to write those latter words. But this doesn't stem from his writing. (And if it did, it would imply that the biblical authors did not not know they were being inspired by God... which makes for some interesting theology.)
 
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laptoppop

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This much is obvious.

This much isn't. Could you please elaborate using examples?
For example - over and over in the Old Testament - when God did something, the person raised up an altar or memorial place - where as they passed by that place in the future, the message was "here is where God did...." The children were raised with the reminders that God was real and active in practical ways.
Granted.
But the Bible isn't simply a collection of prophecies, however. Paul, in writing 1 Cor 7:10-12, for example, contrasts knowledge given him by God with his own moral prescription. I have heard a few ad hoc apologetics argued against this position before, which simply insist that Paul was, indeed, verbally inspired to write those latter words. But this doesn't stem from his writing. (And if it did, it would imply that the biblical authors did not not know they were being inspired by God... which makes for some interesting theology.)
Yes, but the prophecies were used to validate the rest of the message. For example, false prophets were to be identified by their future telling not coming true. The message was much more than limited to the knowledge of the individual.
 
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Mallon

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For example - over and over in the Old Testament - when God did something, the person raised up an altar or memorial place - where as they passed by that place in the future, the message was "here is where God did...." The children were raised with the reminders that God was real and active in practical ways.
Again, I agree. But I fail to see how this negates the use of myth in the Scriptures. Similar cultures have erected similar altars to their gods in making the same claim.
I'm not denying that God is "real and active in practical ways". But keep in mind also that "God's way are mysterious" and "His paths are beyond tracing out."
Yes, but the prophecies were used to validate the rest of the message. For example, false prophets were to be identified by their future telling not coming true. The message was much more than limited to the knowledge of the individual.
Conceded. But again, even the prophecies were not always meant literally. Did Jesus literally strike a snake on the head, as prophesied by Gen 3:15? Or was this metaphorical for something far greater?
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Yes, but the prophecies were used to validate the rest of the message. For example, false prophets were to be identified by their future telling not coming true. The message was much more than limited to the knowledge of the individual.

prophecies are analogous to miraculous signs and wonders, they are validation techniques, as you pointed out earlier. There is a context and an explanation surrounding them, they are the point. scientific cosmologically statements are the context, not the point being taught. this is a crucial difference.

in the first, prophecies and signs, they are given an interpretation and explained, we are told that the wine into water at Cana was a miracle. We are told that John is the voice in the wilderness from Isaiah. But nowhere are we told that the earth is spherical, or that the earth revolves around the sun, nor interestingly in the moral and ethical realm, we are never told that slavery is an evil and that Christians ought not to do it.

The framework, the cultural matrix of those Scriptural writers is not being overwritten by God's knowledge. demons are said to cause illnesses, not germs. putting almond branches into drinking water is said to cause mottled goats and sheep, not genetics.

this is the point, what exactly is God telling the writers of Scripture? it certainly is not a dissertation on quantum mechanics, nor is it modern cosmology, nor biology etc.....for in all of these things, they are strictly children of their age, showing absolutely no knowledge of what the world is really like, in the terms of modern science, but rather everything is expressed in naive realistic language of appearances form.
 
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Assyrian

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And should Moses have been stoned because Jesus didn't step on a snake?

I remember going to see the film Late Great Planet Earth where Hal Lindsey made a great deal of this prophecy test, but in reality, the application was much more limited.

The prophecy wasn't fulfilled - stone him! No wait, the prophecy just hasn't been fulfilled yet.

The seven headed monster he prophesied never came - stone him! Hold on maybe it is an allegorical monster.

The prophecy was only half right the rest didn't happen - stone him! Or maybe there is a gap in the middle of the prophecy.

It is only when the prophesy says something like 'God will never let Jerusalem fall the king of Babylon will be defeated'. Those are (a) the most dangerous false prophets (along with the ones preaching worship of false gods) and (b) the ones most caught by the false prophecy test.

Paul, in writing 1 Cor 7:10-12, for example, contrasts knowledge given him by God with his own moral prescription. I have heard a few ad hoc apologetics argued against this position before, which simply insist that Paul was, indeed, verbally inspired to write those latter words.
So Paul was divinely and inerrantly inspired to say his words weren't divinely inspired ... Aaaagghhh But if ... and ...:swoon:
 
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rmwilliamsll

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One of the big problems with language is how culturally dependent interpretation turns out to be.

take this:
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

the fact that the world is spherical ought to be obvious to anyone who notices that the horizon curves, especially seafaring peoples. yet this verse ONLY makes sense if a flat earth is in view. The auxillary problem is that we know about the Chinese, the Mayans, and other empires that existed in the 1stC CE.

but the verse is being written from a naive realistic language of appearances POV, because it has to be written from some stance, some position in the world. Now this POV is ultimately very transferable to whomever reads the passage, it is intuitive and fits most people's common sense. but it is nonetheless not a historically or accurate scientific statement, for there does not exist any such mountian peak, nor was there one in Jesus' day that made this statement physically possible. even the Roman Empire by itself is not visible in it's entirety from a single mountian peak. List just the few empires that those Israelites knew about. even a piece of land from each one of them is not visible from a single mountain peak. from a scientific POV the verse is nonsense and an impossibility.
 
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crawfish

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I didn't read all those sources...but the three I read all imply that the verses are to be read symbolically, for their metaphorical rather than their literal meaning.

Hmmm.......
 
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T

The Lady Kate

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Yes, but that's another straw man as well. Nobody is saying *everything* is literal in the Scriptures.

LOL... you need to spend more time on these boards.

Incidentally, I've found at least one error in the Answers in Genesis list you posted, and I wasn't even trying. The Columbus/Flat-Earth brouhaha had nothing to do with Darwin; it was made up whole cloth by Washington Irving when he wrote "The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus" in 1828.

Oddly enough, AiG mentions this in a linked article, but neglects it... one might argue deliberately misrepresents it... in the one you posted.
 
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shernren

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Strepsils, phil?

For what it's worth, I don't think we can strictly say that we knew what the biblical authors' cosmological views actually were. We still say "sunrise" and "sunset" today after all. Maybe everybody knew everything about the Solar System four thousand years ago, but then decided to write with a primitive cosmology anyway just to get a kick out of playing a grand joke on us.

Having said that, it is true that a literal reading of the Bible would lean heavily towards the kind of cosmology phil described in the OP. We can't say what the writers believed, but we can say what the text contains.
 
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philadiddle

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Having said that, it is true that a literal reading of the Bible would lean heavily towards the kind of cosmology phil described in the OP. We can't say what the writers believed, but we can say what the text contains.
I think that is a good way to put it.
 
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