1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Private Member only forums for more serious discussions that you may wish to not have guests or search engines access to.
    • Your very own blog. Write about anything you like on your own individual blog.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Content of God's Gift of Salvation

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Soyeong, Jan 2, 2022.

  1. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +2,872
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I await your demonstration of the correct interpretation of Romans 3:20, 6:6, 6:9; Galatians 3:24, 25; Ephesians 2:15, being true to their words and their context.
     
  2. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +3,878
    Messianic
    Single
    This thread is in regard to the OP, so please discuss the verses that I cited in it.
     
  3. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +2,872
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    And post #41 is my response to the verses you cited in the OP regarding the law; i.e., authoritative NT apostolic teaching is that the law has now been rendered inoperative (Ephesians 2:15) and we are no longer under its former supervision (Galatians 3:25).

    Please address my response as requested.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +3,878
    Messianic
    Single
    If two people use the Bible to support contradictory positions and never interact with what the other has said to explain how the other has a wrong interpretation of the verses that they used to support their position, then the most they would be arguing is that the Bible supports contradictory positions. However, the Bible does not contradict itself, so it is important not just to argue in favor of our position, but to also interact with what the other said to explain why they were wrong to think that it supports their position, and this is what I am asking you to discuss the verses that I cited in the OP to explain why you think I have wrongly interpreted them. If you continue to refuse to do that, then you would not be arguing that I am wrong, but the most you would be arguing that our positions contradict each other. On the other hand, I have discussed the verses that you have cited to explain why I think you have wrongly interpreted them, so I have established that my position is correct and that your position is incorrect, and if you want to question that, then you need to interact with my response to your verses.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  5. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

    311
    +48
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private




    Believing Jesus is risen gives a conscience that was never in the law, and hence why the law made nothing perfect.



    John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    Romans 9: 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

    33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
     
  6. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +3,878
    Messianic
    Single
    In Deuteronomy 6:20-25, obedience to God's law is in regard to having faith in Him to defeat Pharaoh, faith in Him to bring them up out of Egypt, faith in Him to bring them to the land that swore to give to their fathers, faith that His law is for their own good, and faith in God to preserve them, so the reason why they are to be careful to obey all that God has commanded them is because of faith, and it is by that same faith that righteousness will be theirs.

    However, someone can have any number of reasons for obeying God's law other than faith in Him to guide them, such as if they want to God to heaven or avoid going to hell, if they want to look pious or superior to their neighbor, if they love God, if they want to build godly character and a relationship with God, or if they want to earn their righteousness, so while I agree that God's law can be obeyed for reasons other than faith in Christ, nevertheless all faith in Christ is expressed through choosing to live in obedience to God's law.

    The Son is the exact expression of God's nature, which he expressed by living in sinless obedience to God's law, so when we use Christ's nature as the guide for how we live our lives by obeying God's law, we are trusting in who he is, or in other words, we are believing in him, which again is why there are many verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to Him. Furthermore, but expressing Christ's nature through our actions we are growing in a relationship with Christ through gaining experiential knowledge of who he is, so experientially knowing Jesus is the goal of the law, which is why he said in Matthew 7:23 that he will tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.

    In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as though righteousness were by faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what we are agreeing to obey when we confess that Jesus is Lord. Nothing in this passage has anything to do with Christ ending his eternal law.

    In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this is the way that justification is by grace, and this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to put our hope in Christ rising (Acts 21:20).

    Trying to earn our righteousness by obeying God's law has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law, which is why there are so many verses that speak against that, and thinking that the law was ever about trying to do that is making the same misunderstanding of the goal of the law that caused the Israelites to fail to attain righteousness. So there is a difference between the way to become righteous and describing the way that a righteous person lives. Jesus did not become righteous by obeying God's law, but rather he expressed his righteousness through the way that he lived, in accordance with what the law describes.


    In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with the law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, along with the many other verses that I cited that connect God's law with faith. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul was speaking about works of the law, which are not of faith, and was contrasting them with the Book of the Law, which is of faith, and they were under the curse for not relying on the Book of the Law because they were instead relying on works of the law. In those verses, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to God's law. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to rely God's law is to rely on God, while to deny that God's law is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God.

    All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, and even Christ began his ministry with that message, so it doesn't even make sense to think that God will curse those who repent and follow Christ, so we're better off refusing to repent, as if God doesn't want to be obeyed. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, it is obedience to God's law that brings life and a blessing, while it is refusing to submit to it that brings death and a curse, not the other way around. In Deuteronomy 28:1-14, it describes the blessing of living in obedience to God's law, while verses 15-68 describe the curse of living in disobedience to God's law, so the law itself was not given as a curse, but rather being set free from the curse of the law is being set free to enjoy the blessing of the law. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to redeem us from the law, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so you are undermining what he went to the cross to accomplish.
     
  7. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +2,872
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Clare73 said:

    I did. . .I explained the NT meaning of the laws in response to what you posted regarding those laws.

    Your response is simply to deny the explicitly-stated NT meaning in their context. . .and, instead of presenting an interpretation of them in agreement with there words and context and with your view, you try to construct a contra-NT rationale by stringing Scriptures together out of their context to prove your contra-NT rationale, never explicitly dealing with the Scriptures presented.

    That's not hermeneutics, that's unbelief.
     
  8. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +3,878
    Messianic
    Single
    No, your post #23 had a few weak objections and ignored pretty much everything I said in post #22. You have refuse to demonstrate to explicitly-stated NT meaning in their context, you have neglected to show that I have said said anything to deny it, you have neglected to show that I have said anything contra NT, and you have neglected to show that I have taken that anything that I said was out context. I have discussed the Scriptures that you are presented, unlike you, who would rather continue to throw out baseless accusations against me in lieu of discussing the verses that I have cited.
     
  9. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

    311
    +48
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private

    Yes we are declared what was done in Egypt was through faith.

    You say that faith is righteousness being theirs.

    Israel ( we are told) thought that that was their righteousness, to obey all of those laws and going about to establish it.

    Hebrews explains that it was not perfect..


    Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


    Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
    29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

    Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.




    You can see it testified plainly to understand, this is to be ignorant of Gods righteousness ( through the grace of Christ only) by going about to establish their own righteousness ( through the law)




    Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.


    Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
     
  10. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

    311
    +48
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private



    Christ layed His life down, as only belief in Him rising from the dead, is belief in the righteousness of God, by no man worthy of God ( no an able to live in sinless obedience to God and no man having their own faith) faith was given to believe in the words and testimony of Christ and His kingdom of Heaven ( part of that Kingdom is the corn of wheat dying to live again to bring forth much fruit)

    With the heart man believes unto righteousness, and without Christ dying and rising their is no righteousness and no faith for man..



    John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


    Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
    4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
    6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
    7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
    8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
     
  11. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

    311
    +48
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private


    In Deuteronomy 30:6, the first ending of the law is of circumcision, for that was ( and is) praise/ glory of men..



    Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



    Deuteronomy 30:6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.




    Keep going and the next part of the law of Israel to end is hating their enemies....




    Deuteronomy 30:7 And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

    Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,





    The next law to change is fruit in their body, their cattle, their land, as the fruit now is the kingdom of God..




    Deuteronomy 30:9 And the Lord thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the Lord will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:



    Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

    Acts 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

    Matthew 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.




    Next is the greatest change of all, it is the curse of the law, that was changed, it is gone ( it is still a threat to Israel who are yet in that curse)






    Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
     
  12. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

    311
    +48
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private



    David in Psalms speaks of Christ, all scriptures testify of Christ.



    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.





    As I just explained for you, in Deuteronomy 30, everything changed, into the new testament, and now you have reminded us again of this ( how you know but skip around) that the fruit to God is not what God gives to you, but what you give to God..


    Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.




    Titus does speak of good works, Jesus is it, and the Apostles, they became despised by those of the law, because of their law of kindness, of the Spirit of life in Christ, is not life in this world, to hate and lose your life in this world.

    Modern day man keeps sabbath, goes to church, offers prayers, sings hymns, gives some to charity, but they cant serve like Christ and the Apostles by being joined with what all the many do. Neither by hearing the many false prophets will that help them, who speak now to support the doing of law, when it only resulted in death for all who observed it, and if they do the same now, how do they think that will help them escape the same death.
     
  13. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

    311
    +48
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private



    Jesus did the law of laying His life down, ( that is why the preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that don't believe)

    Still speaking your own words, and not showing Gods words but by a book title, chapter and verse, it is mans way alright.

    Looking at Romans 3:27-28, we are told exactly what the law of faith is, it is not of works ( in the law of Moses) but it is instead the justification of a man without the deeds of the law ( the preaching of the cross is the wisdom of God to those who are saved)..


    Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.





    Galatians 3 says the book of the law is faith, to rely on ?

    Galatians begins by showing how that is foolishness and being bewitched, to believe in the works of the law ( the book of law)

    It is simply told why, because the book of law cant deliver the Spirit, the hearing of faith does that.


    Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



    It is not hearing faith through hearing anything then at all in the book of law, ( that is why the law is made honourable, when before it is not honourable, in, eye for eye, to hate enemies, to stone adulterers, to seek fruit for yourself of your body, of your cattle, of your lands.)

    Faith then is only in hearing all through Christ, we have established this, if you want to continue to say law is faith, you will have to overcome all of the testimony of the difference, I will always compare and that all the world of Christians have heard.



    Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
     
  14. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

    311
    +48
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private

    Obedience to Gods law brings life and blessing, and it was demonstrated that man cant obey, as it is the mystery of Christ..



    Romans 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
     
  15. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +2,872
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Which "discussion" fails to present their meaning in agreement with their words, their context and
    your view of the law and, therefore, they remain unaddressed until you do so.
    Which are now addressed in your post following. . .while my post #21 remains unaddressed as specified above, which anything less than is not really addressing them.
    The OT is to be understood in the light of the NT, and the OT quoted above is to be understood in agreement with the NT teaching of Jesus Christ and his apostles. It falls to you to reconcile them.
    Yes, Jesus was born, lived, preached and died under the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant.
    And when asked questions involving the law, he gave the OT teaching that was in force at the time.
    And we learn in the NT that the Old Covenant teaching was to lead them to Christ (Galatians 3:24) because "all those who relied on observing the law were under a curse" (Galatians 3:10) for not keeping the law according to God's standard for righteousness.
    Because now we are under the supervision of the Holy Spirit and not under the supervision of the law (Galatians 3:25).
    We have had eternal life since our rebirth and faith.
    The goal of sanctification is to grow in the likeness of Christ.
    Yes, faithfulness is how we grow in the likeness of Christ.

    The NT issue with the law is its use for righteousness of justification, which is only by faith, apart from faith's works, as with Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28).
    The right use of the law--which it "and any other commandment there may be" (Romans 13:8-10) is fulfilled in the law of Christ (Matthew 22:37-40)--is in the righteousness of sanctification, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19) of the already saved and justified by faith alone, apart from faith's works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:5).
    Obedience does not save nor justify--it sanctifies, only faith saves and justifies.

    Now please address the Scriptures I presented in post #21, in agreement with their words, their context and with your view of the law.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
  16. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

    311
    +48
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private
     
  17. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

    311
    +48
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private
    Jesus gave old testament answers as that was all the Jews of Israel knew and followed after ( all they wanted to know and all they could ever trust in and hear)


    Jesus at age 30, is anointed of the Holy Ghost, and the old testament ( first covenant) was without the Holy Ghost to all Israel, so their law is without this Holy Spirit and as for Christ, ( the law of Christ) it is the Holy Spirit as that was and is what he is.

    Jesus established the second by removing the first, and all He taught was removal of that and the sacrifice of His blood is that complete dedication..


    Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

    Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
     
  18. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +2,872
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    He set aside the sacrifices of the OT (blood of bulls and goats, 10:4-8) to establish the one and only sacrifice of the NT.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  19. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

    311
    +48
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private




    The sacrifices were made to take away sins, ( which men were guilty of by not continuing in the law of sin and death)

    Christ sacrificed once for all, to take away the remembrance of sins each year by the High priests.
     
  20. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +2,872
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    We learn that it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins (Hebrews 10:4).

    There sins were only covered, until the sacrifice of Christ, when they were then actually removed as far as the east is from the west.
     
Loading...