The Concept of Making Yourself Blind & Theoretical Frameworks

DreamerOfTheHeart

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I will introduce two matters here: one, is the concept of 'making yourself blind so you can see'. And the other is the concept of 'end times' viewpoints or maps as being "theoretical frameworks".

The 'making yourself blind so you can see' concept is certainly meant most specifically towards 'end times' observations.

If you already know both, maybe in different words, that is not unexpected as I often meet and know those who are ahead of me or caught up.

If not, and you have an open mind, and are more interested in truth then, well, anything, willing to forego whatever your people or peer group believe and are cynical towards yourself as we all have a propensity of bias, then:

'Making yourself blind, so you can see' - this should be a simple thing to understand, but often is not. There are many viewpoints on Revelation, but these usually boil down to interpretations. One group believes one thing, another something else. Where one is static in belief, one might see how other groups are in error... but fail to apply the same insight and humility to one's own self.

We are all biased. Solomon pointed out vanity effects us all. Each of us wants to have a good seat at the table. We are each tending to believe what we want to believe by our own preferences. This blinds us to truth.

We are saying, "I see, I see", and then, the door to revelation - even Revelation - is closed to us.

So, like prophecies from the Prophets, we might find it wise not to take the best seat in the house and assume we are seeing properly, but to take the least seat, and assume we are blind... with a terrible condition of conceit. One which assumes we can see.

You can meditate and apply every day the teachings of Christ, and meditate everyday on Revelation - as every best Christian does because they believe the promise in it - and still end up by your own bias stagnated in one belief system about the end times. Because this is the way of the flesh, stagnation. Slow. Bodies of light are fast, bodies of flesh are slow.

We should therefore 'not believe what we see, nor what we hear', but listen to God, within.

"Theoretical Frameworks" -- a term coined from modern "science". The wise of this world we are told do have things we can learn from. And, pretty much, all end times theoretical frameworks operate on the principles used in the world: they are interpretations which attempt to use reasoning, and they are heavy on research and investigation via books and such.

Reasoning is good, we know, from the Prophets and Jesus. But, the major problem with most theoretical frameworks of the end times is they are static. No reasoning is really involved, just rote memorization. The appearance of reasoning can be there, but it is not true.

The appearance of reasoning is just recycling inside what one has been told by dubious sources. Where pretty much all sources are dubious.

The meaning of the term is simple, and not expecting anyone to adopt it.

As end times viewpoints are very complicated, they can well be called "frameworks". (A term more from computer programming then just "science", per se.)

As end times viewpoints should be treated without bias, they should be considered "theoretical".

Everyone here knows the end is near, very literally. Some to greater and some to lesser degrees. But, we also all know it is not yet, as everyone on the planet will know then.

Some very few truths we can feel safe taking stock in. Though the wise will want to consider if even that is not true, at times. Perhaps.

There is nothing wrong with considering and holding in your mind all the major theoretical frameworks. It is due diligence.

Refusing to consider such a critically important problem from as many angles as possible... is that really the wise way to go?

Noting that those in error just believe what they are told, while not realizing you your own self is doing the very same thing... that is using a double standard, is it not? Which is exactly against the Gospels.

And when you need interpretations to read Revelation, is that not possible of adding to the book what is not there? One ends up reading a different Revelation entirely.

"Interpretations" are fine is they are treated as theories, possibilities. But, if they are treated as equal to the words of the Book, should you not be entirely sure? There is no error in considering theory. But literally adding and taking away from the Book is dangerous. I would point out.

I would especially point out that dismissing the curse at the end of it in order to do such work on the Book is, its' self, a good sign that something is very wrong.

But, theory, is just possibilities, and adds nothing. It is settling on something without adequate evidence, where there is a problem.

As most theoretical frameworks, by far, pretend to be matters derived from conjecture, why not hold the model of theory and critical thinking to it as well? Why join conjecture with prophecy, making conjecture equivalent with prophecy?

We are told even prophets themselves can not subject their prophecies to their own interpretations... but effective scribes of the church can?

Finally, it is noteworthy to say, people can believe their own theoretical frameworks because their church does. So, it can be they love the members of their church, and their beliefs get tied into that.

That kind of faith I am all about. But, when you look at other churches and consider them condemned, and just consider your own group as saved, then you are damning those others. We are called to love greater then that.

If you can love even those of differing viewpoints on the end times, surely you can seriously consider the possibility of their theoretical framework and so consider your theoretical framework as potentially equal?

Until proven otherwise?
 

DreamerOfTheHeart

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I haven't a clue what you are going on about.

Christianity isn't theoretical, it is real and practical.
End times, Jesus is coming back, when, nobody knows.

I did not say Christianity is theoretical.

There is a lot of theory being held and taught as fact.

End times is now, end times was two thousand years ago. We do know that. John even went so far as to say "this is the last hour".

That is a fact that you should know.

If you miss it by dying, you will come right back to it.

As they say "blown to Kingdom come", that is showing people innately understand that they go right to Kingdom come when they die.
 
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keras

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It isn’t very pleasant to think that the Lord can control our thinking. It brings free will into question, but who are we? He is the Creator. Mark 4:12, Luke 9:4-5

Someone made the comment that it seems as though God is playing something like a video game; setting up situations and watching the outcomes.

But of course, God cannot give the game away, all the non-Christian peoples must not know His plans and even with the so called Christians, it is estimated that there may be only 2% who are honestly faithful. The other 98% follow false doctrines and cults or just simply warm a pew for an hour or so per week, the rest of the time they lie about anything, steal if the opportunity offers, commit adultery, etc, etc.

So what can we do? At least, if you belong to this forum you are making an effort to gain understanding of the end times. However, everywhere around us, ideas and theories are put forward that have no sound scriptural basis. Outdated and biased translations are a serious handicap. One example is in Luke 21:36; ‘escape all these things’, more correctly translated is; ‘to pass safely through all that is to come’, so as not to be a contradiction of verse 35, that plainly states: the Lord's wrath will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

Of course belief in God and the Lord Jesus, true repentance of sins and fervent prayers are essential to become right with God and He is faithful to forgive those who truly repent.

From my studies of prophecy, I firmly believe that very soon there will be an event of a similar magnitude to the great flood of Noah’s time. This time, most of the world’s population will survive. To be among the survivors we must heed the warnings, be aware of what will happen and be prepared for it. But our main hope is to have absolute trust in the Lord’s salvation and His promises of protection. Isaiah 30:15, Isaiah 41:15, Zechariah 9:15-16, 1 Peter 1:21, +
 
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Truth7t7

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I will introduce two ms here: one, is the concept of 'making yourself blind so you can see'. And the other is the concept of 'end times' viewpoints or maps as being "theoretical frameworks".

The 'making yourself blind so you can see' concept is certainly meant most specifically towards 'end times' observations.

If you already know both, maybe in different words, that is not unexpected as I often meet and know those who are ahead of me or caught up.

If not, and you have an open mind, and are more interested in truth then, well, anything, willing to forego whatever your people or peer group believe and are cynical towards yourself as we all have a propensity of bias, then:

'Making yourself blind, so you can see' - this should be a simple thing to understand, but often is not. There are many viewpoints on Revelation, but these usually boil down to interpretations. One group believes one thing, another something else. Where one is static in belief, one might see how other groups are in error... but fail to apply the same insight and humility to one's own self.

We are all biased. Solomon pointed out vanity effects us all. Each of us wants to have a good seat at the table. We are each tending to believe what we want to believe by our own preferences. This blinds us to truth.

We are saying, "I see, I see", and then, the door to revelation - even Revelation - is closed to us.

So, like prophecies from the Prophets, we might find it wise not to take the best seat in the house and assume we are seeing properly, but to take the least seat, and assume we are blind... with a terrible condition of conceit. One which assumes we can see.

You can meditate and apply every day the teachings of Christ, and meditate everyday on Revelation - as every best Christian does because they believe the promise in it - and still end up by your own bias stagnated in one belief system about the end times. Because this is the way of the flesh, stagnation. Slow. Bodies of light are fast, bodies of flesh are slow.

We should therefore 'not believe what we see, nor what we hear', but listen to God, within.

"Theoretical Frameworks" -- a term coined from modern "science". The wise of this world we are told do have things we can learn from. And, pretty much, all end times theoretical frameworks operate on the principles used in the world: they are interpretations which attempt to use reasoning, and they are heavy on research and investigation via books and such.

Reasoning is good, we know, from the Prophets and Jesus. But, the major problem with most theoretical frameworks of the end times is they are static. No reasoning is really involved, just rote memorization. The appearance of reasoning can be there, but it is not true.

The appearance of reasoning is just recycling inside what one has been told by dubious sources. Where pretty much all sources are dubious.

The meaning of the term is simple, and not expecting anyone to adopt it.

As end times viewpoints are very complicated, they can well be called "frameworks". (A term more from computer programming then just "science", per se.)

As end times viewpoints should be treated without bias, they should be considered "theoretical".

Everyone here knows the end is near, very literally. Some to greater and some to lesser degrees. But, we also all know it is not yet, as everyone on the planet will know then.

Some very few truths we can feel safe taking stock in. Though the wise will want to consider if even that is not true, at times. Perhaps.

There is nothing wrong with considering and holding in your mind all the major theoretical frameworks. It is due diligence.

Refusing to consider such a critically important problem from as many angles as possible... is that really the wise way to go?

Noting that those in error just believe what they are told, while not realizing you your own self is doing the very same thing... that is using a double standard, is it not? Which is exactly against the Gospels.

And when you need interpretations to read Revelation, is that not possible of adding to the book what is not there? One ends up reading a different Revelation entirely.

"Interpretations" are fine is they are treated as theories, possibilities. But, if they are treated as equal to the words of the Book, should you not be entirely sure? There is no error in considering theory. But literally adding and taking away from the Book is dangerous. I would point out.

I would especially point out that dismissing the curse at the end of it in order to do such work on the Book is, its' self, a good sign that something is very wrong.

But, theory, is just possibilities, and adds nothing. It is settling on something without adequate evidence, where there is a problem.

As most theoretical frameworks, by far, pretend to be matters derived from conjecture, why not hold the model of theory and critical thinking to it as well? Why join conjecture with prophecy, making conjecture equivalent with prophecy?

We are told even prophets themselves can not subject their prophecies to their own interpretations... but effective scribes of the church can?

Finally, it is noteworthy to say, people can believe their own theoretical frameworks because their church does. So, it can be they love the members of their church, and their beliefs get tied into that.

That kind of faith I am all about. But, when you look at other churches and consider them condemned, and just consider your own group as saved, then you are damning those others. We are called to love greater then that.

If you can love even those of differing viewpoints on the end times, surely you can seriously consider the possibility of their theoretical framework and so consider your theoretical framework as potentially equal?

Until proven otherwise?
The book of revelation is not a theory, Gods Holy Spirit leads the believer into truth in the scripture. Not all biblical interpretations of prophecy are equal.

Jesus Christ will return in firey Judgment, immediately after the tribulation, dissolving this existing earth by his fire, judgment complete, eternity begins.

There will be no pre-trib rapture or millennial kingdom on this earth, false teachings in my opinion.

I don't believe the interpretations are a matter of salvation, but a matter of deception.
 
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Douggg

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I will introduce two matters here: one, is the concept of 'making yourself blind so you can see'. And the other is the concept of 'end times' viewpoints or maps as being "theoretical frameworks".

The 'making yourself blind so you can see' concept is certainly meant most specifically towards 'end times' observations.

If you already know both, maybe in different words, that is not unexpected as I often meet and know those who are ahead of me or caught up.

If not, and you have an open mind, and are more interested in truth then, well, anything, willing to forego whatever your people or peer group believe and are cynical towards yourself as we all have a propensity of bias, then:

'Making yourself blind, so you can see' - this should be a simple thing to understand, but often is not. There are many viewpoints on Revelation, but these usually boil down to interpretations. One group believes one thing, another something else. Where one is static in belief, one might see how other groups are in error... but fail to apply the same insight and humility to one's own self.

We are all biased. Solomon pointed out vanity effects us all. Each of us wants to have a good seat at the table. We are each tending to believe what we want to believe by our own preferences. This blinds us to truth.

We are saying, "I see, I see", and then, the door to revelation - even Revelation - is closed to us.

So, like prophecies from the Prophets, we might find it wise not to take the best seat in the house and assume we are seeing properly, but to take the least seat, and assume we are blind... with a terrible condition of conceit. One which assumes we can see.

You can meditate and apply every day the teachings of Christ, and meditate everyday on Revelation - as every best Christian does because they believe the promise in it - and still end up by your own bias stagnated in one belief system about the end times. Because this is the way of the flesh, stagnation. Slow. Bodies of light are fast, bodies of flesh are slow.

We should therefore 'not believe what we see, nor what we hear', but listen to God, within.

"Theoretical Frameworks" -- a term coined from modern "science". The wise of this world we are told do have things we can learn from. And, pretty much, all end times theoretical frameworks operate on the principles used in the world: they are interpretations which attempt to use reasoning, and they are heavy on research and investigation via books and such.

Reasoning is good, we know, from the Prophets and Jesus. But, the major problem with most theoretical frameworks of the end times is they are static. No reasoning is really involved, just rote memorization. The appearance of reasoning can be there, but it is not true.

The appearance of reasoning is just recycling inside what one has been told by dubious sources. Where pretty much all sources are dubious.

The meaning of the term is simple, and not expecting anyone to adopt it.

As end times viewpoints are very complicated, they can well be called "frameworks". (A term more from computer programming then just "science", per se.)

As end times viewpoints should be treated without bias, they should be considered "theoretical".

Everyone here knows the end is near, very literally. Some to greater and some to lesser degrees. But, we also all know it is not yet, as everyone on the planet will know then.

Some very few truths we can feel safe taking stock in. Though the wise will want to consider if even that is not true, at times. Perhaps.

There is nothing wrong with considering and holding in your mind all the major theoretical frameworks. It is due diligence.

Refusing to consider such a critically important problem from as many angles as possible... is that really the wise way to go?

Noting that those in error just believe what they are told, while not realizing you your own self is doing the very same thing... that is using a double standard, is it not? Which is exactly against the Gospels.

And when you need interpretations to read Revelation, is that not possible of adding to the book what is not there? One ends up reading a different Revelation entirely.

"Interpretations" are fine is they are treated as theories, possibilities. But, if they are treated as equal to the words of the Book, should you not be entirely sure? There is no error in considering theory. But literally adding and taking away from the Book is dangerous. I would point out.

I would especially point out that dismissing the curse at the end of it in order to do such work on the Book is, its' self, a good sign that something is very wrong.

But, theory, is just possibilities, and adds nothing. It is settling on something without adequate evidence, where there is a problem.

As most theoretical frameworks, by far, pretend to be matters derived from conjecture, why not hold the model of theory and critical thinking to it as well? Why join conjecture with prophecy, making conjecture equivalent with prophecy?

We are told even prophets themselves can not subject their prophecies to their own interpretations... but effective scribes of the church can?

Finally, it is noteworthy to say, people can believe their own theoretical frameworks because their church does. So, it can be they love the members of their church, and their beliefs get tied into that.

That kind of faith I am all about. But, when you look at other churches and consider them condemned, and just consider your own group as saved, then you are damning those others. We are called to love greater then that.

If you can love even those of differing viewpoints on the end times, surely you can seriously consider the possibility of their theoretical framework and so consider your theoretical framework as potentially equal?

Until proven otherwise?
There can be theories, there is also absolute certain's. The are also interpretations, some correct, some incorrect.

For example, I may theorize that the person who becomes the beast, will have a banking background - it is a theory, not a certain. Jesus returning to stand on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half is a certain - not a theory.

I disagree with the blinding idea. It sounds like dumbing down to me.

Instead, I think a person needs to intake in as much information as is made available and process it according what is written in the bible - which means a person needs to be doing some reading - and then by the understanding be manifest by the Holy Spirit, which everything will fit together.
 
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Tolworth John

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That is a fact that you should know.

The only two facts about the last days/end times etc etc etc etc
that needs to be known are:-

That Jesus will return, when we do not know.
 
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Biblewriter

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To even begin to understand scripture, we have to start with one ESSENTIAL concept. That is that Every word of God is AVSOLUTE truth.

So whenever we find a scripture that says exactly the opposite of any idea we might have, we need to give up our idea, not the scripture.

A close associate of this, is that we must realize that ANY supposed leading of the Holy Spirit that conflicts with ANY scripture, did not come from the Holy Ghost, but from somewhere else.

I find it exceedingly distressing when I see many people that at least seem to be real Christians, that is, people that have indeed accepted the blood of Lord Jesus Christ as the sufficient and only offering for their sin, who repeatedly value their own interpretations of the meanings of some scriptures, in preference to the explicit statements of many other scriptures.

This does NOT mean these people are not real Christians. But it does mean that they are not giving the word of God the respect it deserves and demands.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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There can be theories, there is also absolute certain's. The are also interpretations, some correct, some incorrect.

For example, I may theorize that the person who becomes the beast, will have a banking background - it is a theory, not a certain. Jesus returning to stand on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half is a certain - not a theory.

I hear what you are saying on the mount of olives splitting in two as being literal. But, for me, I am as deaf, until I get confirmation in my heart.

So, that is a theory to me. A decent one.

How can I be skeptical? Well, the mount of olive is where the transfiguration happened. It may also be where the angels were seen ascending and descending. That phrase is critical because Jesus spoke of some seeing the angels of Heaven ascending and descending on the Son of Man, himself.

Finally, it is likely where Jacob struggled with God all night long, where he won his new name, "Struggles with man and God and overcomes" -- literally "overcomes".

As for how strange all of that is, especially if you try and put it altogether to see how each part fits into one another? It is very strange, as you also see the same symbolism of the angels ascending and descending on the temple of God, in Ezekiel.

That is a lot of metaphor for one tiny literal hill.

I view it as speaking of the alienness of the operation of the angels, and of the "being revealed from Heaven" as the angels and Jesus appearing in glorified, transfigured form. But, for you, that likely is either "I already know it" or "that is way whacked out and can never believe it".

That is, my first inclination is to view the splitting of the mount as a metaphor, speaking of Jesus and the angels being revealed in transfigured glory -- a state where everyone who can not change with them would find in great horror.


I disagree with the blinding idea. It sounds like dumbing down to me.

Instead, I think a person needs to intake in as much information as is made available and process it according what is written in the bible - which means a person needs to be doing some reading - and then by the understanding be manifest by the Holy Spirit, which everything will fit together.

This is correct, but I find that it is good to see with my heart, not with my fleshly ears or eyes.

Much of what I hear and see in the world is not as it appears.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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It isn’t very pleasant to think that the Lord can control our thinking. It brings free will into question, but who are we? He is the Creator. Mark 4:12, Luke 9:4-5

Someone made the comment that it seems as though God is playing something like a video game; setting up situations and watching the outcomes.

But of course, God cannot give the game away, all the non-Christian peoples must not know His plans and even with the so called Christians, it is estimated that there may be only 2% who are honestly faithful. The other 98% follow false doctrines and cults or just simply warm a pew for an hour or so per week, the rest of the time they lie about anything, steal if the opportunity offers, commit adultery, etc, etc.

So what can we do? At least, if you belong to this forum you are making an effort to gain understanding of the end times. However, everywhere around us, ideas and theories are put forward that have no sound scriptural basis. Outdated and biased translations are a serious handicap. One example is in Luke 21:36; ‘escape all these things’, more correctly translated is; ‘to pass safely through all that is to come’, so as not to be a contradiction of verse 35, that plainly states: the Lord's wrath will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

Of course belief in God and the Lord Jesus, true repentance of sins and fervent prayers are essential to become right with God and He is faithful to forgive those who truly repent.

From my studies of prophecy, I firmly believe that very soon there will be an event of a similar magnitude to the great flood of Noah’s time. This time, most of the world’s population will survive. To be among the survivors we must heed the warnings, be aware of what will happen and be prepared for it. But our main hope is to have absolute trust in the Lord’s salvation and His promises of protection. Isaiah 30:15, Isaiah 41:15, Zechariah 9:15-16, 1 Peter 1:21, +

Thank you, excellent response.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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To even begin to understand scripture, we have to start with one ESSENTIAL concept. That is that Every word of God is AVSOLUTE truth.

So whenever we find a scripture that says exactly the opposite of any idea we might have, we need to give up our idea, not the scripture.

A close associate of this, is that we must realize that ANY supposed leading of the Holy Spirit that conflicts with ANY scripture, did not come from the Holy Ghost, but from somewhere else.

I find it exceedingly distressing when I see many people that at least seem to be real Christians, that is, people that have indeed accepted the blood of Lord Jesus Christ as the sufficient and only offering for their sin, who repeatedly value their own interpretations of the meanings of some scriptures, in preference to the explicit statements of many other scriptures.

This does NOT mean these people are not real Christians. But it does mean that they are not giving the word of God the respect it deserves and demands.


Thank you, another very good post.

I would only note, who is a real Christian and who is not - besides the extreme obvious - will be decided at the end, as Jesus stated in the parable of the angels working the crops.

And, a major place for error is where people believe just what they find online or what people have told them, without question.

Often I see no usage of reasoning, of critical thinking skills, at all.

That is not "being like Jesus".
 
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Douggg

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That is, my first inclination is to view the splitting of the mount as a metaphor, speaking of Jesus and the angels being revealed in transfigured glory -- a state where everyone who can not change with them would find in great horror.
Take a look at Zechariah 14:5. When the Mt of Olives is split, half to the south, half to the north - the Jews held captive in Jerusalem will flee, in similitude to fleeing as their ancestors did when Uzziah was king of Judah.

Zechariah 14:
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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Take a look at Zechariah 14:5. When the Mt of Olives is split, half to the south, half to the north - the Jews held captive in Jerusalem will flee, in similitude to fleeing as their ancestors did when Uzziah was king of Judah.

Zechariah 14:
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Right, I looked up and read the entire chapter. It seems to correspond to one of the two times in Revelation where Satan gathers the nations against the Lord and the Holy Ones. (One time is before the thousand years, the second time is after.)

Zechariah is an extremely puzzling, metaphoric book, where I mean "puzzle" as in "code", "cipher", and more specifically, as God told Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, that He talks to the prophets in puzzles, in riddles.

So, I do not think I am likely to take that as having to happen literally there.

Besides what I said about the extreme symbolic power invested into the hill of olives. (I did not even get into it as likely also being the hill where the 144,000 stand.)

I do not think anyone will have any questions when Jesus is revealed from Heaven with the host of angels.

I do not think they will have any confusion that this is Jesus and these are the angels of Jesus.

So, I do not see any reason that this has to be literally fulfilled at that exact spot, so that people might need to check the book to see.

But, I will surely consider your belief some more.
 
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