The Coming Seven Year Tribulation

[Quasar92]

The future Tribulation is one week, or seven years.3 It is Daniel's seventieth week of prophecy wherein the Antichrist desecrates the Temple in the midst of the Tribulation (Matt. 24:15; Dan. 9:27; 2 Thess. 2:4-7). Daniel wrote, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

There are seven salient points that attest it will be the Antichrist who will "confirm" Daniel's covenant for one future week, not Jesus Christ. First and foremost, is the fact that Christ never made any covenant, New, Mosaic, or otherwise, strong for seven years. But He works as does His Father, even to this day, declaring the New Covenant to all who will hear it (John 5:17).

Second, Israel hasn't been cut-off from obtaining salvation: "seventy weeks are determined (Hebrew: cut-off) upon thy people . . . to . . . make an end of sins . . . and to bring in everlasting righteousness" (Dan. 9:24). As we should see, at the Cross Israel did not "make an end of sins" and "bring in everlasting righteousness." Thus, it is when the Gospel returns to Israel upon the completion of the Gentiles times, that Israel’s blindness will lift (Jer. 31:7-10; Matt. 24:33; Rom. 11:25).

Concerning Israel in the end of time, the Lord will make a Short Work (Rom. 9:27-28). Now this isn’t just a good point, but an indisputable biblical fact: the Gospel will return to Israel, and the Lord will finish His Short Work with great power! In other words, the coming trying times of the seventieth week (the seven-year Tribulation), when Israel is to "make an end of sins" and "bring in everlasting righteousness," is yet in the future. In full support of this view, the words of Zechariah read:

It shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zech. 13:8-9)

Third, Daniel's seventieth week of the seventy, depicting the "overspreading of abominations" of the Antichrist (the Abomination of Desolation), is to last ". . . even until the consummation . . ." (Dan. 9:27; 11:31-35!; 12:11). Meaning, the seventieth week time-frame is to last until the end ("until the consummation"), or last until the traditional Second Coming of Christ, when the same reconciles His people who were not His people, the Jews (Hos. 1:10).

Fourth, Scripture tells us that the Messiah died at the end of the sixty-second week (Dan. 9:26). Or, by adding the first seven weeks of this prophecy (Dan. 9:25), one could understand that Christ died at the end of the sixty-ninth week (Dan. 9:25), but by no means in the midst of the seventieth week (Dan. 9:27). Here also lies an indisputable biblical fact: Christ wasn’t cut-off (die) in the midst of any week, but at the end of the week (Dan. 9:26). Thus, again, it isn’t Christ who will "confirm" the covenant with many for one week in Daniel 9:27!

Fifth, the Hebrew word "confirm" (gabar) in Daniel 9:27, denotes a forced covenant by implying in the original language: insolent prevailing through strength (Strong’s # 1396). In regard of this fact, Christ never forced or insolently prevailed in presenting the New Covenant to anyone.

Morever, in the presentation of the Gospel, the God-man of the Bible was and is a God of free moral choice, not one of insolent force. Here, then, also lies evidence that Christ is not the prince who will "confirm" the covenant with many for one week. Accordingly, Christ is NOT the Prince of the Covenant (Dan. 11:22) who will be broken without hand (Dan. 8:25).

Sixth, is the fact that "the people of the prince" don’t represent the people of Jesus Christ, but the Army of Rome who destroyed the Holy City in AD 70, being the Army of the Roman prince Titus (Dan. 9:26). Following suit, Titus was a type of the coming Antichrist (as was Antichos Epiphanes, the Prince of the Covenant in Daniel 11:22), who will head-up the revived Greco-Roman empire (Dan. 7:20, 8:9-12, 9:26-27). Thus, in deductive thinking, it can only be the Antichrist who will be broken without hand (Dan. 8:25). Fittingly, then, it is Titus, contextually, exegetically, who was a type of the one who will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease in Daniel 9:27, not Jesus Christ.

Seventh,4 the "overspreading of abominations" found in Daniel 9:27, by Scriptural interpretation, is the "transgression of desolation" (Dan. 8:13; Matt. 24:15) in the end of time (Dan. 11:31-35, 12:9-13!), which is not the much earlier time of Christ’s ministry here on Earth, nor the year 70 AD!5

As a result, the "overspreading of abominations" in Daniel 9:27, by which the "sacrifice and the oblation" are to cease in the midst of the seventieth week, are yet to happen. That is to say, the ceasing of the "sacrifice and oblation" does not speak to Christ's death, nor of the time of our Lord’s Ministry here on Earth, but to the daily sacrifices and prayers (evening and morning) of the future rebuilt Temple in the Tribulation period (Exod. 29:39; Dan. 8:12, 26, 12:11).

In fact, it is these very prayers and sacrifices which will cease by the hand of the Antichrist in the midst of the seventieth week, when He shows Himself to be God (2 Thess. 2:4), and sets up that which is abominable (Dan. 8:13, 9:27, 11:31, 12:11; Matt. 24:15). In sum, these seven salient points confirm that there will be a seven year Tribulation, in which the rebuilt Jewish Temple is desecrated in Jerusalem, just as the Greek Septuagint so precisely acknowledges.6

So important is this particular point, that Christ said, "But when you shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains" (Mark 13:14)!

Now some would object to the notion of a rebuilt Temple being desecrated in the midst of the seven-year Tribulation. Yet the Bible, by the Law of Deduction, shows the existence of a future, rebuilt, Jewish Temple in "tribulational Israel." The point being: never has just the Outer Court been given to any Gentile people at anytime in history, therefore it remains to be a future event. John wrote,

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (Rev. 11:1-2)

After the destruction of the Temple in AD 70, John wrote the above description of the future Temple between AD 85 and AD 90 on the Isle of Patmos. In John's account, the Outer Court will be given to the Gentiles.7 If anything, this fact eliminates the possibility of the Heavenly Sanctuary as being the Temple in question (Rev. 11:1-2). Because in Heaven the Gentiles are inside the Temple of God (Rev. 7:9, 15), not the Outer Court. Also, this fact eliminates the Temple in question as the earthly Temple of AD 70, because then, the Gentiles (the Roman Army) had the whole Temple, not just the Outer Court. Note: Some claim the year 1967 as the year of the Gentile Fulfillment, however, in 1967 Israel never had a Temple, much less an Outer Court for the Gentiles to trample.

Without question, then, ". . . the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months," can only pertain to Jerusalem in future tribulational Israel, especially since it is earthly Jerusalem which will be trodden under foot for forty-two months in the Tribulation, not Heavenly Jerusalem. Factually, then, the Temple in question can be none other than a future, rebuilt, Israeli, "tribulational Temple," which will be trodden underfoot until the completion of the Gentile times (Dan. 8:13-17; Luke 21:24; Rom. 11:25), not the Heavenly Temple (nor the Temple of AD 70).

Applicably, the future treading underfoot of Jerusalem in Luke 21:24, and the Holy City in Revelation 11:2, are one in the same (see also Dan. 8:13!). In fact, both narratives speak to the Gospel fulfillment of the Gentiles, which fulfillment couldn’t have happened in AD 70 or in 1967.

With this fact in mind, the Preterist view that Christ came in AD 70 is in grave error. Because the treading underfoot of Jerusalem, which really reflects the fulfilling of the Gospel to the Gentiles, remains to be a future event. For then, and only then, will Israel no longer be blind to the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Rom. 11:25) in Christ’s Short Work (Rom. 9:27-28).

This Gospel fulfillment is also seen in the Parable of the Fig Tree, where Jesus says that "this generation," or the generation of 1948, will not pass before all things are fulfilled (Matt. 24:34). More than likely, Jesus meant that the majority of this generation would not all die (pass) before all things are fulfilled, not that there would still be a few people alive from 1948.

Now the overwhelming evidence affirms that the Antichrist will never desecrate the Heavenly Sanctuary in His demonstration of being God, but the earthly. Certainly, then, the Antichrist will consummate the Great Apostasy by His despicable deed of entering God's Temple in Israel, showing Himself to be God (2 Thess. 2:4).8 By the way, Paul very well knew the difference between the two words "temple" and "church." And this is why he wrote the phrase "Temple of God" (2 Thess. 2:4), and not the phrase, "Church of God."

Upon the Second Advent the Antichrist shall be vanquished from the Temple of God by the brilliance of Christ’s glorious coming (2 Thess. 2:8). Surely the Desire of the Nations shall come and fill that very House with His glory (Hag. 2:7-9). Then, the Throne of David shall be established, wherefrom our Lord shall judge all nations at the end of this age (Matt. 25:31; Psa. 132:11-13; Jer. 3:17; Zech. 6:12-13; Luke 1:32-33; Rev. 2:26-27; 3:21).

Here also lies a mighty wrench thrown into the error of Preterism. Point in fact: Christ never ruled and judged the nations from Jerusalem in AD 70, nor did he have a throne in Jerusalem at that time. Conversely, in That Day, Jerusalem shall be called "the throne of the Lord," and all the Gentile nations shall be gathered before Him. More than just sustaining this view, Luke wrote: After this I WILL RETURN, and will BUILD AGAIN the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men9 might seek after the Lord, and ALL the GENTILES, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things (Acts 15:16-17).

Far from the idea of Preterism, future Jerusalem, as the Word says, shall become a burdensome stone for all nations, not just some nations: "And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it" (Zech. 12:3).

Of course, there are those who hesitate to accept the fact of a coming dreadful Great Tribulation. But the Lord Himself said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21). Therefore, Jesus’ words leave little to the imagination: terror awaits the world in the dark prior night of That Day.

Emphatically, Isaiah also foretold of the coming doom: "Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left" (Isa. 24:6).

Besides that of Isaiah’s prophecy, John also prophesied of rampant, widespread, death: "By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone . . ." (Rev. 9:18). Collectively or individually, none of these Scriptures are too promising for the Church;10that is, if the entire Church were to remain through the Great Tribulation until the traditional Second Coming.

After the Summer Harvest for the Church, Israel will recognize the missed time of Her salvation, while braving the time of Jacob's Trouble until the morning of That Day (Jer. 30:7). During that time the unredeemed Jews will lament: "The harvest is past, the SUMMER IS ENDED, and we are not saved" (Jer. 8:20)! Indeed, the green unripened fruit of Israel are left behind (Luke 14:24). The Jews, according to the prophetic Word, will brave "all these things."

From Midnight's Cry


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

First and foremost, is the fact that Christ never made any covenant, New, Mosaic, or otherwise, strong for seven years.

Nobody can honestly deny that the Gospel was taken to the "house of Israel" for about 7 years before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Apostles (subtitle from eSword)

Mat 10:5　 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:　

Mat 10:6　 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.　

Mat 10:7　 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.　



Gal 1:14　 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.　
Gal 1:15　 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,　
Gal 1:16　 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:　
Gal 1:17　 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.　
Gal 1:18　 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

.　

 

[Another Lazarus]

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Total length of the grief tribulation :
1290 + 1335 days

 

[BABerean2]

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.



Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)



Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the sacrifices. The temple sacrifices were also stopped in 70 AD.

Luke's Gospel was written for more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them in Luke 21:20-21.

.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Total length of the grief tribulation :
1290 + 1335 days

1335 days, yes. But not 1290 days + 1335 days.

1335 days from the time the AoD is setup to Jesus's return to planet earth, his foot touching down on the Mt. of Olives.

1290 days from the time the AoD is setup, the events of the sixth seal take place and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God. Terrorizing the evil men of this world and their kings. It will take the beast, false prophet, and Satan to convince the kings of the earth and their armies to make war on Jesus to try and stop his judgment on them. So over the course of 45 days they mobilizes and assemble their armies at Armageddon.

So it looks like this.

AoD setup............1290 days later, the events of sixth seal.............on 1335th day, Jesus returns.

 

[iamlamad]

1335 days, yes. But not 1290 days + 1335 days.

1335 days from the time the AoD is setup to Jesus's return to planet earth, his foot touching down on the Mt. of Olives.

1290 days from the time the AoD is setup, the events of the sixth seal take place and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God. Terrorizing the evil men of this world and their kings. It will take the beast, false prophet, and Satan to convince the kings of the earth and their armies to make war on Jesus to try and stop his judgment on them. So over the course of 45 days they mobilizes and assemble their armies at Armageddon.

So it looks like this.

AoD setup............1290 days later, the events of sixth seal.............on 1335th day, Jesus returns.

Sorry, Douggg, but your timing is off. The 6th seal BEGINS the time of judgment. The great earthquake there is Paul's sudden destruction that will follow the rapture. Right after the earthquake Jesus will open the 7th seal that will officially begin the 70th week of Daniel. Notice I said begin, not end. The 7th seal opens he week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.

 

[iamlamad]

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Total length of the grief tribulation :
1290 + 1335 days

I don't think you are reading that verse correctly. Notice there is no "from" and "to." All Daniel gives us is the "from." Daniel had been asking about the "to" or the "end of these wonders."

So it is "FROM" the time the sacrifice is taken away and the very same time the abomiantion is set up: they happen at the same time. It will be 1290 days from that day TO THE END. Daniel does not tell us what happens on the 1290th day, but my guess would be Jesus' coming on the white horse. The 70th week will have ended on the 1260th day. But Jesus does not come then. He will be at the marriage and supper in heaven. My guess is, they will take up 30 days.

 

[Servant232]

Nobody can honestly deny that the Gospel was taken to the "house of Israel" for about 7 years before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Apostles (subtitle from eSword)

Mat 10:5　 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:　

Mat 10:6　 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.　

Mat 10:7　 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.　



Gal 1:14　 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.　
Gal 1:15　 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,　
Gal 1:16　 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:　
Gal 1:17　 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.　
Gal 1:18　 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

.　

Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become fulness ha Goyim.

Goyim - Nations - People

Melo - fulness

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of O' Ethnos, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Ethnos - Nations - People

Gal 1:16　 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Ethnos; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Eze 37:22 And I will make them one Goy in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two Goyim neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:


Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of O' Ethnos be come in.

The House of Judah and The House of Joseph


(moved) I need help with Biblical scholars and theorists on this one...

Here Is Wisdom

 

[Soyeong]

The Great Ribulation in when we give you a good ribbing over your thread title for the next 7 years?

 

[Douggg]

Sorry, Douggg, but your timing is off. The 6th seal BEGINS the time of judgment. The great earthquake there is Paul's sudden destruction that will follow the rapture. Right after the earthquake Jesus will open the 7th seal that will officially begin the 70th week of Daniel. Notice I said begin, not end. The 7th seal opens he week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.

lamad, the 70th week starts by the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9, by the rider on the white horse, first seal..

The sixth seal is near the end of the 70th week.

It looks like this:

The confirming of the covenant.......followed by the world saying peace and safety....... then 2thessalonians2:4 act.....the Day of the Lord begins.....

then on day 1185 the AoD setup (great tribulation begins)...........1290 days later, the events of sixth seal.............on 1335th day (day 2520 on the 7 year timeline), Jesus returns.

The 2thessalonians2:4 act - the transgression of desolation.
The image of the beast - the abomination of desolation.

 

[Douggg]

The Great Ribulation in when we give you a good ribbing over your thread title?

Which I would like to say to everyone here concerning my own typo's, leaving out words, leaving our "not"s and no's where they obviously should have been - thanks' for your mercy and kindness, for not pointing out all of my multitude of communication shortcomings.. I am aware that you notice, but are going easy on me.

 

[BABerean2]

blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of O' Ethnos be come in.

What happens after "the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled", based on Luke 21:27?

Luk 21:24　 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.　


The Coming of the Son of Man (subtitle from eSword)

Luk 21:25　 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.　

 

[iamlamad]

lamad, the 70th week starts by the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9, by the rider on the white horse, first seal..

The sixth seal is near the end of the 70th week.

It looks like this:

The confirming of the covenant.......followed by the world saying peace and safety....... then 2thessalonians2:4 act.....the Day of the Lord begins.....

then on day 1185 the AoD setup (great tribulation begins)...........1290 days later, the events of sixth seal.............on 1335th day (day 2520 on the 7 year timeline), Jesus returns.

The 2thessalonians2:4 act - the transgression of desolation.
The image of the beast - the abomination of desolation.

"lamad, the 70th week starts by the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9, by the rider on the white horse, first seal.. "

You are correct that the 70th week begins as shown in Daniel 9:27 :amplified: "he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many for one week (seven years"

You are mistaken that this is the first seal in Revelation. It is a complete myth that the week begins in Revelation at the first seal. How can we know?

We can know this by careful study, and not accepting theories from others who may think they know. First off, we cannot pull Rev. 6 and in particular the first seal out of its context. What is that context? Of course Rev. chapters 4 & 5. The truth is, these two chapters show us TIMING and give us the exact timing that Jesus got the scroll into His hands and began breaking the seals. These two chapters tell us a story, showing us the movement of time.
First we notice that Jesus was NOT IN the throne room in chapter 4. For all of eternity past to eternity future, there has been or will be only a very short 32 years where Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father - and that was during His short time on earth.

So when John looked into the throne room and Jesus was NOT THERE - we can know right off that the TIMING is during these 32 years He was on earth.

Next, we see a search was made for one worthy to break the seals, and NO MAN WAS FOUND. We know by reading ahead that Jesus was found as soon as He rose from the dead. So in chapter 4 when NO MAN was found, we know the TIMING is before Jesus rose from the dead.

Next we see the Holy Spirit is IN the throne room, again showing us the TIMING or pointing to a time before Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

Finally, in chapter 5 John learns that SOMEONE has been found worthy to break the seals. Again we learn TIMING: Jesus just rose from the dead to become worthy.

Next, John sees the moment Jesus ascends to send the Holy Spirit down. So John has shown us the MOVEMENT Of time which ends with Jesus ascension and the Holy Spirit sent down.

Next, we see that the FIRST THING Jesus does, having ascended, is begin breaking the seals. The ONLY sane conclusion we can draw from scripture is that seal #1 was broken the moment Jesus ascended, or within a few minutes (there was some praise and worship).

When we leave the first seal in its context of around 32 AD we see that the intent of the Author could not possibly be something happening in OUR TIME, but rather something that happened around 32 AD. Again the only sane conclusion is that the first seal represents the CHURCH with the GOSPEL sent out to the world.

The sixth seal is near the end of the 70th week.

Absolutely not! The sixth seal is the opening of the time of Judgment and the start of the Day of the Lord. And it happens BEFORE the 70th week begins or perhaps at the same time.

then 2thessalonians2:4 act.....the Day of the Lord begins.....

Yes, the Day begins after the great departing or the rapture of the church - which is exactly what Paul tells us in 1 Thes. 5.

then on day 1185 the AoD setup

Hardly! Daniel tells us this event will divide the week into two equal halves. Look it up of you don't believe it. And John confirms this with TWO daily counts of 1260 days. Therefore this abomination event that causes the daily sacrifices to cease will happen on day 1260.

 

[BABerean2]

You are correct that the 70th week begins as shown in Daniel 9:27 :amplified: "he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many for one week (seven years"

You are mistaken that this is the first seal in Revelation. It is a complete myth that the week begins in Revelation at the first seal. How can we know?

.................................................

From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.


.

 

[Douggg]

Next, we see a search was made for one worthy to break the seals, and NO MAN WAS FOUND. We know by reading ahead that Jesus was found as soon as He rose from the dead. So in chapter 4 when NO MAN was found, we know the TIMING is before Jesus rose from the dead.

Lamad, when Jesus appeared in the throne room in Revelation 5 does it say - 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. ?

or does it say in Revelation 5, 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Lamad, Jesus was not seen arriving with the clouds of heaven. Jesus appeared to them, coming forth from the glory of the throne.

For all of eternity past to eternity future, there has been or will be only a very short 32 years where Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father - and that was during His short time on earth.

Do you think before entering this world and being born unto Mary - that there was a man in heaven named Jesus?

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad, when Jesus appeared in the throne room in Revelation 5 does it say - 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. ?

or does it say in Revelation 5, 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Lamad, Jesus was not seen arriving with the clouds of heaven. Jesus appeared to them, coming forth from the glory of the throne.
Do you think before entering this world and being born unto Mary - that there was a man in heaven named Jesus?

In Rev. 5 Jesus had just told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. As soon as Mary left, Jesus ascended. And in this vision, John got to see that moment in time when Jesus ascended back into heaven after raising from the dead. NO ONE saw Him go. Later on He ascended when many saw Him. John also said this was when the Holy Spirit was send down - again establishing TIMING. Your other verse, Daniel 7:13 is a different TIMING. Go back and read it. It is after the 70th week and after the Beast is destroyed.

Douggg! What a silly question to ask: Before coming to earth and taking on the flesh of man, Jesus was in heaven as the second person of the Godhead. He was not "man" until God prepared for Him a body to dwell in: the baby in Mary's womb.

 

[Douggg]

In Rev. 5 Jesus had just told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. As soon as Mary left, Jesus ascended. And in this vision, John got to see that moment in time when Jesus ascended back into heaven after raising from the dead. NO ONE saw Him go. Later on He ascended when many saw Him. John also said this was when the Holy Spirit was send down - again establishing TIMING. Your other verse, Daniel 7:13 is a different TIMING. Go back and read it. It is after the 70th week and after the Beast is destroyed.

Daniel 7 Jesus arriving on the clouds of heaven is the heaven side view of Acts 1 - when Jesus left this world, disappearing from the disciples' sight in a cloud.

How could you have Jesus in Revelation 5 in heaven appearing to John before he appeared to John and the other disciples in Luke 24 - which in Luke 24:44-48, he opened their minds unto understanding the scriptures of his death and rising again the third day?

Revelation itself isn't presented to John until he was an older man on the isle of Patmos. And the first three chapters are addressing the churches that were already in existence in Asia Minor.

John being caught up in Revelation 4 is symbolic of the rapture. Revelation 5, john is prepared to be revealed the future, which is in the seals. Revelation 6-19 is built on what takes place in the 70th week... not 2000 years.

Douggg! What a silly question to ask: Before coming to earth and taking on the flesh of man, Jesus was in heaven as the second person of the Godhead. He was not "man" until God prepared for Him a body to dwell in: the baby in Mary's womb.

Jesus was not a man in heaven, before taking on the flesh, being born to Mary, agreed.

Was the second person of the Godhead before taking on the flesh of man - the Son of God ?

You had written, "For all of eternity past to eternity future, there has been or will be only a very short 32 years where Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father - and that was during His short time on earth."

Being at the right hand of the Father - is a metaphor. Not that there are two thrones and two persons of the Godhead visible to creation.

 

[iamlamad]

Daniel 7 Jesus arriving on the clouds of heaven is the heaven side view of Acts 1 - when Jesus left this world, disappearing from the disciples' sight in a cloud.

Daniel 7, verse 13, comes right after this verse:

Dan. 11:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Compare with:

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

They are both speaking of the same timing: AFTER the 70th week has finished and at the time Jesus returns to destroy those at Armageddon.

How could you have Jesus in Revelation 5 in heaven appearing to John before he appeared to John and the other disciples in Luke 24 - which in Luke 24:44-48, he opened their minds unto understanding the scriptures of his death and rising again the third day?

In Rev. 4 & 5 John is receiving a vision. A vision can be of the past, present, or future, or a mixture of all of them. It is truth: John is looking (in the vision) into the throne room of the past - around (95-32=63) 63 years into the past. This is not a difficult concept. In chapter 12, where John is right after the midpoint of the 70th week in his chronology, Jesus shows a very symbolic picture of His birth, (-2 BC?) how Satan used King Herod to try and kill Jesus as a child.

Revelation itself isn't presented to John until he was an older man on the isle of Patmos. And the first three chapters are addressing the churches that were already in existence in Asia Minor.

I agree. I think it was close to 95 AD when John saw this vision.

John being caught up in Revelation 4 is symbolic of the rapture. Revelation 5, john is prepared to be revealed the future, which is in the seals. Revelation 6-19 is built on what takes place in the 70th week... not 2000 years.

I guess there could be a similarity, but if so it is very tiny. John was called up to learn what was to come in the future. That is not why the church will be called up. I know many people imagine that is when the rapture is suppose to take place: Rev. 4:1. Sorry, Doug, but that is pure myth. It is not in any way the intent of the Author. The timing when John was called up was probably around 95 AD. The church is still here. And the 5th seal is about church age martyrs, who are still be added to that total number of martyrs what God knows.

The truth is, the church has been waiting between Seal 5, the martyrs, and seal 6, the start of judgment - all this time. SEal one is the church sent out with the gospel. That is still ongoing today. Seals 2-4 is to show us the devil's attempts to stop the church. This is still ongoing today. Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. Seal 6 is future.

Jesus was not a man in heaven, before taking on the flesh, being born to Mary, agreed.

Was the second person of the Godhead before taking on the flesh of man - the Son of God ?

He was the Redeemer in Isaiah 44:6. He was the WORD in Genesis 1. He was not truly the SON until He was born of Mary.

You had written, "For all of eternity past to eternity future, there has been or will be only a very short 32 years where Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father - and that was during His short time on earth."

Being at the right hand of the Father - is a metaphor. Not that there are two thrones and two persons of the Godhead visible to creation.

The point is, in all of "TIME" there was only a tiny tiny period of time - 32 or 33 years - when the first and second part of the Godhead were not together.

Some people have seen with their own eyes, Jesus the Christ walk right into the Father and the two seem to become one. After all, they ARE ONE! We as humans have not the power to separate our spirit, soul or body and keep on existing as one being. God has that power. Good post, Doug.

 

[Douggg]

He was the Redeemer in Isaiah 44:6. He was the WORD in Genesis 1. He was not truly the SON until He was born of Mary.

1Corinthians 15: 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


The Lord of heaven became the Son of Man , not become the Son of God, when he was born of Mary. The Lord of heaven was already the Son of God from the onset of creation.

Adam was the first man. The Lord of heaven became the second man or the second Adam. i.e. became the Son of Man.

Jesus, the Lord of Heaven, in that sense was the only "begotten" Son of God. It says in the genealogies Adam's father was also God... but in the sense of Adam being created, not procreated by the act of human intercourse.

Jesus it says was the firstborn of creation. Yet, in John 1, it says Jesus created everything. Jesus said he was always with the Father. Jesus said he came forth from the Father. We have to reconcile all those things concerning Jesus.

Which brings me to the question of I asked you - was the second person of the Godhead, the Son of God before being born of Mary? The answer is "Yes". Because the term Son of God is metaphoric, not literal in the human sense.

Here's how the term Son of God applies... to meet all of the things Jesus said about Himself.

Before creation, nothing existed but God. Not even a vacuum, because if there was empty space that would mean God has limits...which He does not have limits. Creation has limits, God does not.

If you can - because this is hard to consider - in the existence of God, creation exists. God therefore is present because creation cannot, impossible, to exist apart from God.

The first act to the existence of creation, The Lord of heaven, who later became Jesus, came forth from God called the Father, into what would be the limits of creation - and created everything. Which the coming forth from Himself as the Lord gives meaning as being the Son of God. The coming forth from Himself was God making Himself perceptible to that which was to be created, i.e. first to the angels in heaven, and then later to man.

The throne of God, in heaven, is the place where God, unknowable, becomes knowable to creation, and is visually encased in blinding light, called glory, if we were there in heaven, which coming forth out of that blinding light was the lamb of God - Jesus - to appear to them in Revelation 5. Which they fell to worship Him.

To the world, Jesus is not yet revealed in that glory. The cosmos acts as a veil. Near the end of the 7 years, at the six seal, the veil will be pulled away, and the world will see the Lamb of God, before the throne of God, and it will send terror into the evil men of the world for what they have done.

Revelation is about the revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ in great glory and power, as God Almighty.

To us, what a friend we have in Jesus!

 

[iamlamad]

1Corinthians 15: 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


The Lord of heaven became the Son of Man , not become the Son of God, when he was born of Mary. The Lord of heaven was already the Son of God from the onset of creation.

Adam was the first man. The Lord of heaven became the second man or the second Adam. i.e. became the Son of Man.

Jesus, the Lord of Heaven, in that sense was the only "begotten" Son of God. It says in the genealogies Adam's father was also God... but in the sense of Adam being created, not procreated by the act of human intercourse.

Jesus it says was the firstborn of creation. Yet, in John 1, it says Jesus created everything. Jesus said he was always with the Father. Jesus said he came forth from the Father. We have to reconcile all those things concerning Jesus.

Which brings me to the question of I asked you - was the second person of the Godhead, the Son of God before being born of Mary? The answer is "Yes". Because the term Son of God is metaphoric, not literal in the human sense.

Here's how the term Son of God applies... to meet all of the things Jesus said about Himself.

Before creation, nothing existed but God. Not even a vacuum, because if there was empty space that would mean God has limits...which He does not have limits. Creation has limits, God does not.

If you can - because this is hard to consider - in the existence of God, creation exists. God therefore is present because creation cannot, impossible, to exist apart from God.

The first act to the existence of creation, The Lord of heaven, who later became Jesus, came forth from God called the Father, into what would be the limits of creation - and created everything. Which the coming forth from Himself as the Lord gives meaning as being the Son of God. The coming forth from Himself was God making Himself perceptible to that which was to be created, i.e. first to the angels in heaven, and then later to man.

The throne of God, in heaven, is the place where God, unknowable, becomes knowable to creation, and is visually encased in blinding light, called glory, if we were there in heaven, which coming forth out of that blinding light was the lamb of God - Jesus - to appear to them in Revelation 5. Which they fell to worship Him.

To the world, Jesus is not yet revealed in that glory. The cosmos acts as a veil. Near the end of the 7 years, at the six seal, the veil will be pulled away, and the world will see the Lamb of God, before the throne of God, and it will send terror into the evil men of the world for what they have done.

Revelation is about the revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ in great glory and power, as God Almighty.

To us, what a friend we have in Jesus!

I don't believe in "eternal Sonship." The word "son" has a meaning. Luke called Adam the "son" of God and that is legitimate because God made Adam. But in a different way, God created the body of Jesus by creating a seed. Indeed, God IS the true Father of the body Jesus wore: He started the creation of that body by creating a seed. I am convinced, when God said, "this day I have begotten" He was referring to the day the Holy Spirit hovered over Mary and the body for Jesus was conceived.

For all time The second person of the Godhead - whom we now call Jesus - has been the second part of the Godhead: the BODY part of God - the very part of God seen my several in the Old Covenant, such as when He appeared to Abraham.

I know, many people believe in the doctrine of eternal Sonship. I don't. Psalms and Proverbs both have verses that mention "the Son" but I classify them as prophecy.

"The Lord of heaven became the second man or the second Adam. i.e. became the Son of Man."

Paul called Him "the second Adam." Indeed, His was the second human body God created. But the Spirit in that body - the very life in that body - was the second person of the Godhead. God the Father created a body for the Redeemer and Lord of the Old Covenant.

Jesus it says was the firstborn of creation.

"Firstborn" here can also mean the first or primary in preeminenance.

Because the term Son of God is metaphoric, not literal in the human sense.

If you say so - but that does not make it truth. "Son" has a meaning. However, since time has little meaning to God, perhaps in that sense I could agree with you. God knew before the foundation of the earth that the Redeemer would become "the SON." I say it is NOT a metaphor, for God created the body (along with Mary's assistance). Mary could not do this alone! Any man that starts conception in a woman is the "father" of that child and the child, if a male is the son of the Father. Therefore The body Jesus wore was indeed the legal SON of our Father God. Our Father Begot Him in respect to the body.

The first act to the existence of creation, The Lord of heaven, who later became Jesus, came forth from God called the Father, into what would be the limits of creation - and created everything. Which the coming forth from Himself as the Lord gives meaning as being the Son of God. The coming forth from Himself was God making Himself perceptible to that which was to be created, i.e. first to the angels in heaven, and then later to man.
This is nonsense. When God "said" it was "the WORD" that said or that spoke. God the Father wanted or desired (as the WILL of God), The Holy Ghost, KNEW what the Father wanted, but yet only hovered over water until the WORD spoke. The moment the WORD spoke, the Holy Spirit went to work and created. All three parts of God were a part of Creation.

In fact, God is Spirit, Soul and Body just as we are, since we are created in His image. God the Father, being the WILL of God, is the Soul part of the Godhead. Both the Holy Spirit and Jesus defer decisions to the Father.

To the world, Jesus is not yet revealed in that glory. The cosmos acts as a veil. Near the end of the 7 years, at the six seal, the veil will be pulled away...

Wrong again: the 6th seal BEGINS judgment. This is not difficult! There is no judgment in martyrs! That is Satan's doing. I am of course speaking of the 5th seal. Neither is there any judgment to be found in seals 1-4. Seal 1 is the GOSPEL going forth and seals 2-4 are Satan's work.

Douggg, it seems we don't agree much on this subject.