The coming scenario for nation of Israel

[Bobgf]

I may be wrong, but this is the coming scenario I see for Israel.

1) God's wrath will begin with the Jews first then the Gentiles -- Rom 2:9

2) God's wrath against Israel will take place during reign of Anti-Christ -- Dan 12:7 ; 11:36 ; 8:19

3) God will use Assyria [Kurds ?] as his instrument of wrath against Israel -- Isaiah 10:5-27

4) Jerusalem and all of Judea will be destroyed at that time -- Luke 21:23+24

5) The Jews will be exiled to Babylon and be redeemed from there -- Micah 4:9+10

6) Zechariah, chapters 1 and 2, are prophecies to be fulfilled at that time.

Any comments?

 

[visionary]

So where would you place this event...

Isaiah 11:14
But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

11:15
And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

 

[Bobgf]

So where would you place this event...

Isaiah 11:14
But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

11:15
And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

visionary, I believe those events take place on the 8th millennial day, after the Israelites become the people of God.

 

[visionary]

Did you notice the parting of the streams... just like the red sea by Moses before... Remember it is before the Promised Land.

 

[Bobgf]

Yes, I see the similarity, but I don't understand the significance of it. Got any ideas?

 

[visionary]

I believe that the two witnesses will be like Moses and crossing seven streams leading the people home.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

You are all pointing out similarities of these prophesies with events with which the writer would have been both familiar and concerned. (Such as the Exodus and the Promised Land). Might I add a few more?

Micah is naturally concerned about Babylon. This terrifying nation was on the verge of wiping his people out and in fact shortly after this book was written the exile to Babylon began.

Similarly, of course the book of Isaiah includes references to Assyria. Again, they were facing the real and present danger that Assyria was going to wipe them out.

As far as Luke and the destruction of Jerusalem... This already happened in 70 AD. In fact it happened nearly word for word. The Gentile armies (The Romans) surrounded the city. Some people were able to make it out and escape to the mountains but other than that no one could really get in or out. Many of them were killed and there was obviously a large amount of "distress". Furthermore, after the Temple was destroyed, the people were led into exile... spiritual exile into the Diaspora. And Jerusalem was trampled under foot and taken over by the Gentiles.

People, isn't it much more faithful to the Bible and to the God of the Bible to interpret these passages in their proper context? Micah, etc. were not talking about the return of Christ, they were talking about the problems that were facing them at the time by using imagery such as the Exodus that everyone was familiar with in order to show the very real and important truth that God provides for His faithful people. That is the major motif that we see not a motif of distant futuristic knowledge.

I mean, let us suppose that these are all prophesies geared to the end times and the return of Jesus as you think. Seeing as the people living in the times that these prophesies were written (save the NT ones) were still awaiting Jesus' first coming they would have had no way to interpret these prophesies correctly. After all, with no Jesus, then this interpretation doesn't make any sense. What kind of a mean, sick, terrible, cruel God would give a divine revelation to His chosen people that they could not possibly understand?

Doesn't it seem more in line with the nature of God that these prophesies would have had to do with the events that they describe so well?... the events that were actually relevant to the people that they were revealed to?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

You are all pointing out similarities of these prophesies with events with which the writer would have been both familiar and concerned. (Such as the Exodus and the Promised Land). Might I add a few more?

Micah is naturally concerned about Babylon. This terrifying nation was on the verge of wiping his people out and in fact shortly after this book was written the exile to Babylon began.

Similarly, of course the book of Isaiah includes references to Assyria. Again, they were facing the real and present danger that Assyria was going to wipe them out.

As far as Luke and the destruction of Jerusalem... This already happened in 70 AD. In fact it happened nearly word for word. The Gentile armies (The Romans) surrounded the city. Some people were able to make it out and escape to the mountains but other than that no one could really get in or out. Many of them were killed and there was obviously a large amount of "distress". Furthermore, after the Temple was destroyed, the people were led into exile... spiritual exile into the Diaspora. And Jerusalem was trampled under foot and taken over by the Gentiles.

People, isn't it much more faithful to the Bible and to the God of the Bible to interpret these passages in their proper context? Micah, etc. were not talking about the return of Christ, they were talking about the problems that were facing them at the time by using imagery such as the Exodus that everyone was familiar with in order to show the very real and important truth that God provides for His faithful people. That is the major motif that we see not a motif of distant futuristic knowledge.

I mean, let us suppose that these are all prophesies geared to the end times and the return of Jesus as you think. Seeing as the people living in the times that these prophesies were written (save the NT ones) were still awaiting Jesus' first coming they would have had no way to interpret these prophesies correctly. After all, with no Jesus, then this interpretation doesn't make any sense. What kind of a mean, sick, terrible, cruel God would give a divine revelation to His chosen people that they could not possibly understand?

Doesn't it seem more in line with the nature of God that these prophesies would have had to do with the events that they describe so well?... the events that were actually relevant to the people that they were revealed to?

So, how do we know that Daniel was talking about
the time of the end?




Dan 8:26
“The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”




Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

Dan 12:5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank.
Dan 12:6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
Dan 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
Dan 12:9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
Dan 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
Dan 12:13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”



Resurrection of multitudes, judgment, and wrath have not happened yet. God is not mean, sick, terrible or cruel. He has told us what we need to know. Everything is there. Those who are around and seek it when information becomes applicable, will find it.

 

[Bobgf]

So, how do we know that Daniel was talking about
the time of the end?




Dan 8:26
“The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”




Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

Dan 12:5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank.
Dan 12:6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
Dan 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
Dan 12:9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
Dan 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
Dan 12:13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”



Resurrection of multitudes, judgment, and wrath have not happened yet. God is not mean, sick, terrible or cruel. He has told us what we need to know. Everything is there. Those who are around and seek it when information becomes applicable, will find it.

 

[Bobgf]

You are all pointing out similarities of these prophesies with events with which the writer would have been both familiar and concerned. (Such as the Exodus and the Promised Land). Might I add a few more?

Micah is naturally concerned about Babylon. This terrifying nation was on the verge of wiping his people out and in fact shortly after this book was written the exile to Babylon began.

Similarly, of course the book of Isaiah includes references to Assyria. Again, they were facing the real and present danger that Assyria was going to wipe them out.

As far as Luke and the destruction of Jerusalem... This already happened in 70 AD. In fact it happened nearly word for word. The Gentile armies (The Romans) surrounded the city. Some people were able to make it out and escape to the mountains but other than that no one could really get in or out. Many of them were killed and there was obviously a large amount of "distress". Furthermore, after the Temple was destroyed, the people were led into exile... spiritual exile into the Diaspora. And Jerusalem was trampled under foot and taken over by the Gentiles.

People, isn't it much more faithful to the Bible and to the God of the Bible to interpret these passages in their proper context? Micah, etc. were not talking about the return of Christ, they were talking about the problems that were facing them at the time by using imagery such as the Exodus that everyone was familiar with in order to show the very real and important truth that God provides for His faithful people. That is the major motif that we see not a motif of distant futuristic knowledge.

I mean, let us suppose that these are all prophesies geared to the end times and the return of Jesus as you think. Seeing as the people living in the times that these prophesies were written (save the NT ones) were still awaiting Jesus' first coming they would have had no way to interpret these prophesies correctly. After all, with no Jesus, then this interpretation doesn't make any sense. What kind of a mean, sick, terrible, cruel God would give a divine revelation to His chosen people that they could not possibly understand?

Doesn't it seem more in line with the nature of God that these prophesies would have had to do with the events that they describe so well?... the events that were actually relevant to the people that they were revealed to?

BeforeTheFoundation

Thank you for your thoughtful and heartfelt post. Apparently you believe that for the most part the prophecies have been fulfilled. But have you considered the prophecies relating to the coming Day of the LORD? A word search of "that day" on BibleGateway shows over 100 prophetic verses relating to that day. The majority of the day of the LORD verses are in Isaiah with about 40 verses, followed by Zechariah with about 20 verses. If the Day of the LORD has already come, then righteousness would now be prevailing over wickedness on this earth. And I don't think that is now the case.

You mentioned that it would be inappropriate for God to give a divine revelation to His chosen people that they could not possibly understand. But both Peter (1Pet 1:10-12) and Paul (Eph 3:5) state that many of the things we are now privileged to know and understand, concerning the mystery of Christ and our salvation, were not revealed to past generations, and that even the angels now watch intently as the things being revealed by God's Spirit unfold.

On the day of the LORD, Assyria will again come against Israel:

On that day the LORD shall shave with the razor hired from across the River [with the king of Assyria] the head, and the hair between the legs. It shall also shave off the beard. On that day a man shall keep a heifer or a couple of sheep, and from their abundant yield of milk he shall live on curds; curds and honey shall be the food of all who remain in the land. On that day every place where there used to be a thousand vines, worth a thousand pieces of silver, shall be turned into briers and thorns. (Isaiah 7:20-23)

And today, the house of Israel is extinct, found only in the graveyards, while only the house of Judah is extant. But in the coming day of the LORD, after the encounter with Gog and Magog, God will reach down into the graveyards, restore the whole house of Israel, and pour out his spirit upon them:

Therefore, thus says the Lord God. Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have pity on the whole house of Israel...Thus they shall know that I, the LORD, am their God, since I who exiled them among the nations, will gather them back on their land, not leaving any of them behind. No longer will I hide my face from them, for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, says the Lord God. (Ezek 39:25-29)

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

HisdaughterJen it seems that we are having this debate on two threads at once

So, how do we know that Daniel was talking about
the time of the end?




Dan 8:26
“The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

the phrase "distant future" rendered in Hebrew is liyomim rabbim and instead of "distant future" a better translation would be "to/until many days [have passed]"

The word rab (many) seems to imply that while there are a lot of whatever the writer is talking about (in this case days) it is still a limited number.

For other places that this word occurs feel free to consult this list:

Gen 50 - numerous
Dt 28 - much seed
Nu 32 - much cattle
2 C 30 - many in the congregation
Gn 30 - large flocks
etc.

If the writer had intended to say "in the far reaching future [such as perhaps 2,500 sum odd years into the future which is our present]" he probably would have rendered it as 'olamim which comes from the word 'olam meaning "a long time" (it is often translated as "forever" but it rarely if ever has that connotation. To quote the linguist and Hebrew expert William L. Holladay, it can be translated as "'eternal,' but not to be understood in philosophical sense")

For examples of where this is used please see this list:
Ps 61 - for all time, for ever
Gn 49 - long time ago, the dim past
Ec 12 - house for ever (the grave)

Dan 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
Dan 12:13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

In light of the above discussion this passage becomes abundantly more clear. Seeing as the phrase usually translated as "distant future" actually means something more along the lines of "a long while" these lists of days make much more sense. 1,290 and 1,335 days (nearing four years) makes much more sense when we are understanding that his prophecy shall be fulfilled in "a long while".

Since the Assyrians had stopped the sacrifices at the Temple and taken the people away from their land (their inheritance) Daniel is predicting that they will be returned in a few years, albeit he is doing it (by God's help) in a very poetic way, but the truth of the passage is that God will provide for His faithful remnant (one thinks of Paul's Remnant theology).

Apparently you believe that for the most part the prophecies have been fulfilled.

Yes, I am a preterist of some degree, hence why we are having this fun discussion .

But have you considered the prophecies relating to the coming Day of the LORD? A word search of "that day" on BibleGateway shows over 100 prophetic verses relating to that day. The majority of the day of the LORD verses are in Isaiah with about 40 verses, followed by Zechariah with about 20 verses. If the Day of the LORD has already come, then righteousness would now be prevailing over wickedness on this earth. And I don't think that is now the case.

I have two responses to this and unfortunately both are unsatisfactory. First, as I said above, I am a partial preterist. Of course all people throughout the history of faith have been looking forward to the day when God will come and vindicate his people and destroy the wicked. Were these prophets looking to the ultimate Day of the LORD? It is possible and I think that it is a reasonable interpretation. However, I maintain that the main message of these passages are that they were awaiting the end of the exile which brings me to my second response which I am more comfortable with. Is it not possible that there are more than one Day of the LORDs? It seems that throughout history God has done amazing things for those who follow Him. It seems that whenever these amazing things happen that it would be reasonable to refer to them as a Day of the LORD. When God allowed His people to return to the promised land it must have been a wonderful time of ecstasy. Think of it. The people, en masse returning to the Promised Land. I am sure that this recalled the collective memory of the Exodus in ways that we modern individuals can barely comprehend. It must have been a justifiable Day of the LORD. And it is this, I would argue, that the prophets are predicting and awaiting. Can and should this feed our imagination as to the coming of the next Day of the LORD? Of course it should. Does it give us a hint of the work that God will do in our future? Of course it does. But that is not the primary message of this text. The primary message is to give an historical and spiritual account of how God saved His people from Exile much like the Exodus narrative gives us an historical and spiritual account of how God saved His people from Egypt.

the mystery of Christ and our salvation, were not revealed to past generations, and that even the angels now watch intently as the things being revealed by God's Spirit unfold.

You are very correct in this, but it is not to the prophets (at least not usually) that we should look to for understanding of "the mystery of Christ" it is to the Gospel. Peter and Paul are simply affirming that their ancestors did not know about Christ.

Phew... I hope that someone reads all of that because it took me a while (my computer decided to turn off in the middle of it so I had to type it again)

BTF

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I may be wrong, but this is the coming scenario I see for Israel.

1) God's wrath will begin with the Jews first then the Gentiles -- Rom 2:9

2) God's wrath against Israel will take place during reign of Anti-Christ -- Dan 12:7 ; 11:36 ; 8:19

3) God will use Assyria [Kurds ?] as his instrument of wrath against Israel -- Isaiah 10:5-27

4) Jerusalem and all of Judea will be destroyed at that time -- Luke 21:23+24

5) The Jews will be exiled to Babylon and be redeemed from there -- Micah 4:9+10

6) Zechariah, chapters 1 and 2, are prophecies to be fulfilled at that time.

Any comments?

Hi. According to Luke 21 those Judeans who heed the call to flee Judea will be scattered amongst all the Nations so do you mean to imply all the Nations are Babylon?

Luke 21:24 And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being capturized/aicmalwtisqhsontai <163> (5701) into all the nations and Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.


Reve 13:10 If any into captivity/aicmalwsian <161>, into captivity/aicmalwsian <161> he is led away. If any in sword to be killed, is binding them in sword to be killed. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........
.......The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins

 

[HisdaughterJen]

HisdaughterJen it seems that we are having this debate on two threads at once



the phrase "distant future" rendered in Hebrew is liyomim rabbim and instead of "distant future" a better translation would be "to/until many days [have passed]"

The word rab (many) seems to imply that while there are a lot of whatever the writer is talking about (in this case days) it is still a limited number.

For other places that this word occurs feel free to consult this list:

Gen 50 - numerous
Dt 28 - much seed
Nu 32 - much cattle
2 C 30 - many in the congregation
Gn 30 - large flocks
etc.

If the writer had intended to say "in the far reaching future [such as perhaps 2,500 sum odd years into the future which is our present]" he probably would have rendered it as 'olamim which comes from the word 'olam meaning "a long time" (it is often translated as "forever" but it rarely if ever has that connotation. To quote the linguist and Hebrew expert William L. Holladay, it can be translated as "'eternal,' but not to be understood in philosophical sense")

For examples of where this is used please see this list:
Ps 61 - for all time, for ever
Gn 49 - long time ago, the dim past
Ec 12 - house for ever (the grave)



In light of the above discussion this passage becomes abundantly more clear. Seeing as the phrase usually translated as "distant future" actually means something more along the lines of "a long while" these lists of days make much more sense. 1,290 and 1,335 days (nearing four years) makes much more sense when we are understanding that his prophecy shall be fulfilled in "a long while".

I can see that you put a lot of effort in trying to decifer what "a long while" might possibly mean but the answer is found in scripture:

Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

Dan 12:5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank.
Dan 12:6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
Dan 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.[fn2] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
Dan 12:9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
Dan 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
Dan 12:13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”




All of the things in Daniel's visions will be completed after a time of great distress, after the power of the holy people has been broken, after a resurrection. None of that has happened yet. So, "a time in the distant future" really means...at least 2500 years so far since Daniel... and it still has yet to be fulfilled.

Since the Assyrians had stopped the sacrifices at the Temple and taken the people away from their land (their inheritance) Daniel is predicting that they will be returned in a few years, albeit he is doing it (by God's help) in a very poetic way, but the truth of the passage is that God will provide for His faithful remnant (one thinks of Paul's Remnant theology).

Certainly, God provides for his faithful remnant but that is not what is meant when the angel tells Daniel he will rest and then rise to receive his allotted inheritance. That is talking about his death and resurrection, the same that is mentioned at the beginning of that chapter.

I have two responses to this and unfortunately both are unsatisfactory. First, as I said above, I am a partial preterist. Of course all people throughout the history of faith have been looking forward to the day when God will come and vindicate his people and destroy the wicked. Were these prophets looking to the ultimate Day of the LORD? It is possible and I think that it is a reasonable interpretation. However, I maintain that the main message of these passages are that they were awaiting the end of the exile which brings me to my second response which I am more comfortable with. Is it not possible that there are more than one Day of the LORDs? It seems that throughout history God has done amazing things for those who follow Him. It seems that whenever these amazing things happen that it would be reasonable to refer to them as a Day of the LORD. When God allowed His people to return to the promised land it must have been a wonderful time of ecstasy. Think of it. The people, en masse returning to the Promised Land. I am sure that this recalled the collective memory of the Exodus in ways that we modern individuals can barely comprehend. It must have been a justifiable Day of the LORD. And it is this, I would argue, that the prophets are predicting and awaiting. Can and should this feed our imagination as to the coming of the next Day of the LORD? Of course it should. Does it give us a hint of the work that God will do in our future? Of course it does. But that is not the primary message of this text. The primary message is to give an historical and spiritual account of how God saved His people from Exile much like the Exodus narrative gives us an historical and spiritual account of how God saved His people from Egypt.

Well, that certainly would have been a BIG day but I think it's a bit more specific. The Day of the Lord speaks of judgment.

You are very correct in this, but it is not to the prophets (at least not usually) that we should look to for understanding of "the mystery of Christ" it is to the Gospel. Peter and Paul are simply affirming that their ancestors did not know about Christ.

On the contrary, the Jews were expecting a Messiah. They knew about Christ. The mystery of Christ is the new birth, born again of the spirit, which is the deposit of what is to come. When we die, we still live. Our bodies will one day soon, be redeemed and changed to be like His body. He has come to save the world, Jews and Gentiles.

Phew... I hope that someone reads all of that because it took me a while (my computer decided to turn off in the middle of it so I had to type it again)

Oh, yeah, I hate it when that happens. I once had to re-type something 4 times. I ended up typing it in Microsoft Word and then pasting it here.

 

[Bobgf]

Hi. According to Luke 21 those Judeans who heed the call to flee Judea will be scattered amongst all the Nations so do you mean to imply all the Nations are Babylon?

Hi, LLJ. Your question relates to the reconciling of two separate passages of scripture.
Perhaps some of Israel will be dispersed to the nations, while God's chosen are exiled to Babylon?



Luke says the Jews are "led away into all nations" (Luke 21:24) while the Prophet Micah says: "thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies" (Micah 4:10 KJV)

The word "even" is an archaic term used to place emphasis on the exact location of exile: Babylon (ie, southern Iraq area)





Scriptures confirming Babylon as the place of exile and redemption on the day of the LORD are:

Go forth from Babylon, flee from Chaldea! With shouts of joy proclaim this, make it known: Publish it to the ends of the earth, and say, "The LORD has redeemed his servant Jacob..." (Isaiah 48:20 NAB)

Up, escape to Zion! you who dwell in daughter Babylon. For thus said the LORD of hosts (after he had already sent me) concerning the nations that have plundered you: Whoever touches you touches the apple of my eye. (Zech 2:11-12 NAB).

Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: Like these good figs, even so will I regard with favor Judah's exiles whom I sent away from this place into the land of the Chaldeans [Babylon]. I will look after them for their good, and bring them back to this land, to build them up, not to tear them down; to plant them, not to pluck them out. I will give them a heart with which to understand that I am the LORD. They shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart. (Jeremiah 24:5-7 NAB)


Please note, to some extent, these prophecies have been fulfilled in the past.

But in the coming day of the LORD there will be a greater and more complete fulfillment of these prophecies when the people of Israel are finally redeemed from all their sins, never to sin again as a nation!

 

[Bobgf]

On DOTL, the people of Israel will carry away their iniquities to the deserts of Babylon.
(Scriptures taken from Catholic New American Bible)


So I will allure her. I will lead her into the desert and speak to her heart.
From there I will give her the vineyards she had, and the valley of Achor as a door of hope.
She shall respond there as in the days of her youth, when she came up from the land of Egypt.
(Hosea 2:16-17)


Since the goat is to carry off their iniquities to an isolated region,
it must be sent away into the desert.
(Leviticus 16:22)


Thus says the LORD: The people that escaped the sword have found favor in the desert.
As Israel comes forward to be given his rest, the LORD appears to him from afar
With age-old love I have loved you; so I have kept my mercy toward you.
Again I will restore you and you shall be rebuilt, O virgin Israel.
(Jeremiah 31:2-4)


I am the LORD, your God, since the land of Egypt.
I will again have you live in tents as in that appointed time.
(Hosea 12:10)


By the sword you shall fall; at the boundries of Israel I will judge you.
(Ezek 11:10)



Perhaps these scriptures too refer to that time. I'm not sure.

The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God,
that there she might be taken care of for 1260 days.
(Rev 12:6)


But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly to her place in the desert, where, far from the serpent, she was taken care of for a year, two years, and a half year.
(Rev 12:14)

 

[Bobgf]

Is it not possible that there are more than one Day of the LORDs? It seems that throughout history God has done amazing things for those who follow Him. It seems that whenever these amazing things happen that it would be reasonable to refer to them as a Day of the LORD. When God allowed His people to return to the promised land it must have been a wonderful time of ecstasy.... It must have been a justifiable Day of the LORD. And it is this, I would argue, that the prophets are predicting and awaiting....The primary message is to give an historical and spiritual account of how God saved His people from Exile...

BTF, apparently you haven't yet plugged the words "that day" into the BibleGateway website's passage search block, and then read the 100 or so verses that the prophets (Isaiah thru Malachi) have spoken regarding that special day, the Day of the LORD.

If you had done so, I think you would have quickly seen that the DOTL is yet a future event.



Some salient features of that day are:
1) Righteousness will prevail over wickedness.
2) Proud and arrogant men will be humbled.
3) Distinction will be made between those who serve God and those who don't.
4) Nation of Israel will truly rely on the LORD for their protection and well-being.



The LORD begins the DOTL by pouring out his wrath, first on the Jews, then on the Gentiles
I think a couple of the more notable DOTL verses are:

Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD's anger.
(Zeph 2:3)

The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
(Joel 2:31)


While both Malachi and Joel speak of the Day of the LORD as a great and dreadful day,
the Apostle Peter in Acts 2:20, quoted Joel, changing his verse to great and glorious day.

The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
(Acts 2:20)

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
(2Pet 3:10)





I think all the prophecies concerning the Messiah had to be fulfilled to some extent before Jesus came the first time. For example, instead of the Prophet Elijah coming in the flesh, John the Baptist came as a spiritual fulfillment of Malachi 4:5 ("I will send you Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the LORD comes").

If these prophecies had not been fulfilled to some extent, then one might argue that the Jews were right in rejecting Jesus at his first coming because he didn't meet all the criteria of the prophets concerning the Messiah. But I think we can expect a greater and more complete fulfillment of these very same prophecies will precede the Lord's next appearance.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

I can see that you put a lot of effort in trying to decifer what "a long while" might possibly mean but the answer is found in scripture:

Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

Dan 12:5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank.
Dan 12:6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
Dan 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.[fn2] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
Dan 12:9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
Dan 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
Dan 12:13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

First off, I did not "decipher" what it means. I gave a very reasonable translation of the actual words that the prophet wrote citing respected scholarship.

All of the things in Daniel's visions will be completed after a time of great distress, after the power of the holy people has been broken, after a resurrection. None of that has happened yet. So, "a time in the distant future" really means...at least 2500 years so far since Daniel... and it still has yet to be fulfilled.

The only one of these that is problematic for my view is the resurrection of the dead. Great distress = having your entire nation deported from its conquered land. Power of the Holy people being broken = loss of the Temple.

The dead rising from the grave does at first seem to point to your theory because later Christian thought (and for the record I believe in this) believes that their will be a resurrection of the dead in the future. However, seeing as this is the only real piece of evidence that doesn't fit better in my schema and considering the fact the the resurrection of the dead is often used in a figurative sense to simply mean a "time of trouble" (see above) it seems that my explaination still works better especially in light of the Hebrew translation that I supplied above.

BTF, apparently you haven't yet plugged the words "that day" into the BibleGateway website's passage search block, and then read the 100 or so verses that the prophets (Isaiah thru Malachi) have spoken regarding that special day, the Day of the LORD.

You actually expect me to assume that every time the phrase "that day" occurs in the Bible that it is referring to the end times, let alone, "The Day of the LORD"?

Some salient features of that day are:
1) Righteousness will prevail over wickedness.
2) Proud and arrogant men will be humbled.
3) Distinction will be made between those who serve God and those who don't.
4) Nation of Israel will truly rely on the LORD for their protection and well-being.

All of these things happened on the day that the Hebrew people were allowed to return to their land. After reading you post I am even more confident that there can be more than one Day of the LORD and that the one that Daniel was referring to was the return to the land.

The LORD begins the DOTL by pouring out his wrath, first on the Jews, then on the Gentiles

He first poured out his wrath on the Jews by exiling them and then on the Gentiles by destroying their empires so that the Jews could return home.

Sorry if this seems rushed or incomplete or if it doesn't make sense. I am in a rush to go eat pizza with a friend.

BTF

 

[Notrash]

So, how do we know that Daniel was talking about
the time of the end?




Dan 8:26
“The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”




Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

Dan 12:5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank.
Dan 12:6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
Dan 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
Dan 12:9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
Dan 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
Dan 12:13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”



Resurrection of multitudes, judgment, and wrath have not happened yet. God is not mean, sick, terrible or cruel. He has told us what we need to know. Everything is there. Those who are around and seek it when information becomes applicable, will find it.

Dan 8:19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be].

Between which of Daniels 4 beasts does the Gap belong to continue his visions into 3000 yrs later?

 

[Markea]

IMO.. one of the most important and often overlooked portions of scripture, relative to ISRAEL.. is the times of the Gentiles..

Why or how is that relative to Israel.. ? Simply because Israel is the only nation on this planet that is NOT Gentile..

Daniel is important because it speaks of the Gentile powers which would have dominion over the earth..

ISRAEL under David was once head of the nations.. although as the kings became more and more corrupt.. the nation went into captivity and exile.. this is where the times of the Gentiles begins.. with Nebuchadnezzar..

WHEN Christ came to His own.. it was still the times of the Gentiles.. the Romans had dominion over the world at that time.. and the LORD told His disciples that this would continue to be the case (Gentile dominion), until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled..

So, have the times of the Gentiles been fulfilled..?

NO, they have not.. GENTILES continue to have dominion over this planet.. even up til this day..

Some of His disciples asked the LORD if He was going to RESTORE the kingdom to ISRAEL after His resurrection.. although His answer was that it is not for them to know the times or the season FOR THAT..

Christ knew that He was going to build His church.. He knew that Israel's house was left desolate.. He knew that Jerusalem would continue to be trodden down of the GENTILES until the times of the Gentiles were to be fulfilled..

They're still not fulfilled.. GENTILES continue to have dominion over this planet today.. Israel certainly does not.. although that will all change when Israel ultimately accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their King and Messiah.. and THEN.. He shall come from Sion and shall turn away ungodliness from JACOB.. for this IS HIS COVENANT with THEM.. don't ya'll remember that ISRAEL is blinded in part UNTIL the fulness of the GENTILES comes in..?

The times of the Gentiles shall come to an end..and then Rev 11:15 will come to pass..

[bible]Revelation 11:15[/bible]

When the Lord Jesus Christ comes in His glory.. and THEN sits upon the throne of His glory.. His apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones.. judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL.. in that DAY..

The Day of the Lord..

 

[Bobgf]

Dan 8:19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be].

Between which of Daniels 4 beasts does the Gap belong to continue his visions into 3000 yrs later?

Notrash, IMO, and I may be wrong, the gap is between the 3rd and 4th beasts.

Like I told BTF above, the prophecies concerning the Messiah had to be fulfilled to some extent before Jesus came the first time, else the Jews might argue that they were right in not accepting Jesus as the Messiah since the prophetic criteria had not been met.

So, I believe that the Roman Empire met the criteria of the 4th beast at the time of Christ, and I have a hunch that the Assyrian Empire will meet the criteria of the 4th beast at the time Christ returns the second time.