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The Coequality of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by Christodoulos, Jul 9, 2017.

  1. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    OF THE FATHER AND JESUS CHRIST:

    "And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, Unto Him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (Revelation 5:13-14)

    This is one of the strongest and clearest passages in the Holy Bible that speaks of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. It also shows His equality with the Father, and further teaches that there are Two Persons in Scripture, Who are equally Almighty God. We read, "to Him Who (Gk, toi) sits on the throne, and to the (Gk, toi) Lamb". Where it is very clear from the Greek text, that two separate Persons are spoken of, God the Father, and God the Son (the Lamb).

    Verse 13 speaks of "every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them", which is nothing less than the entirety of the human race, "every created thing", with no exceptions. Here the entire universe ascribes "THE blessing, and THE honour, and THE glory, and THE Might", where in the Greek text, the "article [the]" is repeated with each word, signifying, "whatever blessing, and honour, and glory, and might", there is in the entire universe, as in ALL blessings, honour, glory, might, is here said to belong "to Him that sits on the throne", which is God the Father in this case. But, the Apostle John does not stop here, but, in the Greek goes on to say, "KAI", the particle "and", which is used to "connect words, clauses and sentences", where in this case, it is used for what is "joint" between "the One Who sits on the throne AND the Lamb", Who is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. So, let us be clear here what is being said. ALL, "THE blessing, and THE honour, and THE glory, and THE might", are said EQUALLY to belong to God the Father, and God the Son, which is the only conclusion that any honest person can conclude from this passage. In the Book of Isaiah we read these words: "to whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? (46:5), and in 42:8, "I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images". It is very clear from these passages, that Almighty God would never "share" His glory, praise with another, nor can He ever be compared with, or made equal with anyone. And yet, in the passage in Revelation, this is exactly what the Apostle John, writing under the guiding of the Holy Spirit, has done! It would be nothing short of blasphemy, for the Apostle John, to have written as he did in Revelation 5:13-14, IF, Jesus Christ was a created being, as some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach. How can the Almighty Creator God, be EVER "share" the " blessings, and honour, and glory, and might", with a someone Whom He created? Can the Creator be said to be EQUAL with His creation, IF as some blaspheme, that Jesus is a created being? Jesus Himself says in the Gospel of John, "My Father works until now, and I work" (5:17), which the Jews rightly understood as Jesus "making Himself equal (Gk, isos, "the same in quality". J H Thayer, Greek-English lexicon; "to claim for one's self the nature, rank, authority, which belongs to God, Jn. v.18", p.307. Thayer was a Unitarian, who, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, denied the Deity of Jesus Christ) to God (toi theoi)", because He had called God, "His OWN Father" (verse 18). Thus is their relationship. And in verse 23, Jesus says something that ONLY someone who was coequal to the Father could ever have said. We read: "That everyone (all humans) should honour (Gk, time, "worship, esteem, honour") the Son, even as (Gk, kathos, "just as, even as", indicating comparision) they honour the Father. He that does not honour the Son, does not honour the Father Who sent Him". Can a created being demand that SAME honour that God the Father is given? Regardless of highly exalted Jesus Christ might have been, if He were a created being, there is NO way that He could ever have used language as He does here, without blaspheming.

    John then goes on to say in verse 14, that BOTH the Father and the Lamb are EQUALLY "worshipped", "fell down and worshipped". It is only someone whose "theology" is warped, will try to argue that the "worship" here is only directed to "Him that sits on the throne", and not "to the Lamb", as well. In fact, Bible versions like the King James, are wrong here as they add the words, "Him that lives forever and ever", after, "worshipped", which is based on much weaker textual evidence. The Jehovah's Witnesses 2013 edition of their New World Translation, have verses 13-14;

    "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honour and the glory and the might forever and ever. The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped."

    It is of interest to note, that in this passage, the New World Translation, has "worshipped", but, when the same Greek word, "proskuneo", is used in Hebrews 1:6, where God the Father is speaking of Jesus Christ, says, "and let all the angels of God worship Him", their translation says, "And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”. In a footnote they add, "or, 'bow down to him'". There can be no doubt, that the ONLY reason that the Jehovah's Witnesses render the Greek as they do for Jesus Christ, is because if they had said what the Greek actually says in both Hebrews 1:6, and Revelation 5:14, that is "WORSHIP", then this would cause a huge problem for their teaching, that Jesus Christ is a created being, and not Almighty God, as Jehovah is. In fact, in the New Testament, the Greek word, "proskuneo", is used at least 59 times. I noted in the New World Translation, that in every instance where the word is used for Jesus, Matthew, 2:2, 8, 11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; Hebrews 1:6, etc, it is always translated as " obeisance", as it is when used for humans. However, when, like in Matthew 4:10, it is used for the Father, "worship" is used. By doing so, the Jehovah's Witnesses equate Jesus Christ with created humans, as their demonic "theology" teaches that He Himself is part of creation. They know nothing of being truthful and honest, but only seek to promote their heretical teachings, which are based on lies. I will add here, the reading in Revelation 3:14, where Jesus Christ is called, "the arche [beginning] of the creation of God". The Greek text has it, "arche tes ktiseos tou theou". Now, to show that the Jehovah's Witnesses are not honest in their "theology" and the way they "translate" in their New World Translation, they have rendered the Greek as, "the beginning of the creation by God". For this to have been the case, then we would have expected the Apostle John to have employed the Greek preposition, "hupo" (genitive), as in "hupo tou theou", which then would mean, "by God". The change in their version has been made for the sole purpose of making Jesus the "first" to have been created "by God". J H Thayer, is of interest her. Under the Greek word, "arche", and its use in Revelation 3:14, he says, "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause" (page, 77). We further read in this same lexicon, where in Revelation 1:17, and 2:8, where Jesus Christ says of Himself, that He is, "the first and the last", Thayer says, "ho protos kai ho eschatos, i.e. the eternal One" (page, 554). Which can ONLY mean that Jesus Christ is UNCREATED, as He IS ETERNAL. Instead of, as the Jehovah's Witness teaching of this verse, as Jesus being the "first created" by God, He is actually the "origin and cause", of all created things (excluding Himself).

    I noticed elsewhere in the New World Translation, where the Greek has "tou theou", in every instance they have rendered it as "of God". Really exposes them as dishonest.

    For those of us who have ever spoken with any Jehovah's Witness about Jesus Christ, and refer to Isaiah 9:6, where Jesus is called "the Mighty God", which is how their translation reads, with the capital "God", they respond, well, He is not called "Almighty God", and therefore conclude that Jesus is a "lesser god". To this we can reply, that in the passage from Revelation 5, we read the words, "the might", (which is also how the New World Translation reads). The use of the Greek article here "the might", signifies in this context, "ALL the might that there is in the universe". In fact, the Greek word for "might" in Revelation 5:13, is "kratos". The Greek word for "almighty" is, "pantokrator", which is itself from two words, "pas", meaning "all", and "krateo[akin to, kratos]", meaning, "to have strength". There can be no doubt, that we are clearly told in Revelation 5:13, that Jesus, like the Father, is Almighty God. The fact that they COEQUALLY SHARE, "THE blessing, and THE honour, and THE glory, and THE might", which can ONLY be used for The Creator, and never for a created being, cannot be disputed.

    There can be no doubt to the honest person, that the passage in Revelation Chapter 5, and others discussed, are very clear to the fact, that there are Two Persons here spoken of, Who are completely EQUAL, which would also make them coessential and coeternal, as they ARE Almighty God. Only to those who are more concerned by their "theological" bias against the Deity of Jesus Christ, will they argue against the Truth as taught in Scripture. It is very obvious, that, should the likes of the Jehovah's Witnesses, admit, that this passage does indeed teach that God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, are clearly shown as EQUAL from the language used, then their whole "system" falls apart. They are more content with misleading, heretical teachings, rather than accept what the Holy Bible, which is the Word of Almighty God, actually teaches. This is seen from the many corruptions that their own translation contains.

    OF THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT:

    "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptise them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". (Matthew 20:19)

    Note, Jesus says, "to onoma", "The Name", that is "One Name", and not "ta onomata", the plural, "The Names", "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit". What, then is "The Name", that Jesus says, belongs to Himself, and the Father and Holy Spirit? We read in Exodus chapter 3, where Moses asks Almighty God for His "Name". To which God replies, "Ehyeh ’ăsher ’ehyeh", which is best rendered into English as, "I am that I am" (ver.14). The Greek version of the Old Testament (The Septuagint), which was done some 150 years before the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, has it, "ego eimi ho on", "I am the Eternal One". The Name of God, “Yahweh” in the Hebrew is, “the one bringing into life, life-giver, giver of existence, creator, the one who is, i.e., the absolute unchangeable one, the existing, ever living” (F Brown, S R Driver and C A Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon, p.218) When God tells Moses that “I am has sent you” (verse 14), He is giving His Name, “Yahweh” as the “Eternal, Self-existing, All-powerful, Creator God”, as He said in Isaiah, “I am Yahweh, that is My Name” (42:8). The Name which Jesus speaks of in Matthew 28:19, no doubt is "Yahweh".

    It should also be noted, that, even though Jesus says "Name", (singular), the Greek text that follows is also very important: "tou Patros kai tou Huiou kai tou Hagiou Pneumatos", where the Greek "article" (tou), is repeated, to show that a "distinction" of Persons is meant. Yet, as YAHWEH they have ONE NAME. It is impossible for any created being to have the same “Name” of Almighty God. No one doubts that the Father is God, and therefore “eternal and uncreated” (Yahweh). The fact that here we have both Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, Two distinct Persons, together with the Father, where They have the SAME NAME of ALMIGHTY GOD, can only teach us that the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is Biblical, and not an invention of the early Church.
     
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  2. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Agree ~ Many Scriptures reveal the Knowledge of the Deity of God.

    Scripture teaches Knowledge. The "understanding" of Scripture is two fold.
    1) A conclusion of a mans mind, via weighing, logic, philosophies, sensible, guessing, etc.
    2) Thee Spiritual Truth of our, Wise, All knowing God.


    Some will argue, "their truth" against "Gods all knowing supreme Truth".

    A natural mans truth is natural; ie limited knowledge, wisdom and understanding.
    Gods Spiritual Truth is supreme: ie unlimited knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

    "of God" requires the understanding related to the context in Scripture.

    "of God" can specifically relate to that which IS God Himself, "called by" whatever name, title, etc. that God Himself declared.

    John.1
    1. [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    2. [18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    John.16
    1. [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

    "of God" can also specifically relate to that which God Himself, "claims" is His specifically, "called by" whatever name, title, etc. that God Himself declares.

    Luke.3
    1. [38] Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
    Who is an earthly man, who is claimed AS A "son of God"?

    John 1
    [12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    Gen.1
    [1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    [10] And God called the dry land Earth;

    Gen 2
    [7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground...

    Clearly mankind is out OF the created EARTH.

    Clearly Jesus came forth out OF God personally.

    John.8
    1. [42] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    Clearly Jesus IS the Word of God and came forth out of Gods mouth.

    John 1
    [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Isa 45
    [23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Clearly Christ Jesus IS Spirit.

    1Cor.15
    1. [45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    2. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    Clearly a BODY was prepared for Jesus for WHEN he was to come into the world.

    Heb.10
    1. [5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
    Clearly Jesus' prepared body was the Perfect flesh BODY Jesus came to GIVE for the LIFE of the World.

    John.6
    1. [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
    Luke 22
    [19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
    [20] Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

    Heb 10
    [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    Gen.1
    [1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    [2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
    [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    Clearly God is the creator. ie Heavenly unseen Father.
    Clearly Gods Word is present in His creations. ie called Jesus
    Clearly Gods Power is present in Effecting His creations. ie called Christ.

    1 Cor 1
    [24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


    God Bless,
    SBC[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
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